The "dreaded Tick" Solved?

SkooterG · Sep 17, 2005

Hmmm.....

Saw the following post over at sport-touring.net by Greench440. Very interesting news that I had not heard before. Has Yamaha figured out the root cause of the dreaded tick, and engineered a solution?

Warchild? Bueller?

Under the knife
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The FJR has checked in to Sunnyside General for a valve guide and valve seal transplant, should have him back in two weeks. (Cue $6M Man music) We can rebuild him, we can make him better, we have the technology.

He's in capable hands as Sunnyside Motors have probably fixed more tickers than any other shop in the nation. Dan has really taken the lead in getting Yamaha to recognize the problem and solve it. We should be lucky to have more dealers like him.

The current procedure is to replace the valve guides and seals, they are not sending the old heads back to Yamaha anymore now that the problem has been identified as too tight exhaust valve seals. New parts and part numbers have been issued so the problem should not return

Warchild · Sep 17, 2005

Yes, this info is correct; Yamaha does have new valve stem seals for the FJR. I learned about the new valve stem seals a couple months ago, but was asked to say nothing at the time.

But as to whether or not it truly fixes the tick situation, this remains to be seen, as far as I'm concerned. Recall how the new "dot" valves were also supposed to fix the tick? So.... I'm waiting to see how the 2006 motors do before claiming victory.

SkooterG · Sep 17, 2005

But as to whether or not it truly fixes the tick situation, this remains to be seen, as far as I'm concerned. Recall how the new "dot" valves were also supposed to fix the tick? So.... I'm waiting to see how the 2006 motors do before claiming victory.

Yes, that makes a lot of sense, and I concur.

However, I do find it highly encouraging to know that Yammie IS spending some time and energy trying to solve the problem.

Shall be interesting to see how the 06s fare....

markjenn · Sep 18, 2005

Anybody heard the switchover date for the new seals? Any of the 2005's? The fiche doesn't show a part number change for the 2005's.

- Mark

moby one · Sep 18, 2005

Yes, this info is correct; Yamaha does have new valve stem seals for the FJR. I learned about the new valve stem seals a couple months ago, but was asked to say nothing at the time.

Hey, what else do ya know? Somebody get the thumb-screws and water torture

Toecutter · Sep 18, 2005

Wouldn't looser stem seals just cause more oil consumption? It sounds more like a patch job than a fix. Just my opinion, I could be wrong again. I did mention something about a possible inadequate cooling system as a contributing factor on the other site. Now, the factory has improved the cooling system, according to what I've read. I wonder why they felt the need for that change?

ionbeam · Sep 18, 2005

Wouldn't looser stem seals just cause more oil consumption?

Give and take. More oil would pass by the seal but there would be more lubrication at the guide.

Alan

FJRay · Sep 18, 2005

just for infomation after mine was repaired it uses about 8oz in 2000 miles. i don't find that to be a bad thing if it means better lubrication and no guide wear. it seems most of the oil gets used when the fjr is at speeds that make it happy so the extra oil is getting used at the time.

markjenn · Sep 18, 2005

I think valve seals are designed to pass a small amount of oil for valve guide lubrication. One theory is that Yamaha tried some new materials or technology with the FJR's engine and got the calibration off such that a small percentage of seals over-seal.

Everything I've read seems to indicate the the 2006 "cooling system" changes are designed to manage airflow to the rider, not to improve the engine's cooling. I've never seen anything to make me think that the FJR has a cooling capacity issue. Sure, the temp spikes up in slow-speed running and the fan comes on, but this happens the same in every liquid-cooled motorcycle and the system seems to have plenty of headroom to keep temps in bounds for very hot weather and slow speeds.

- Mark

deano · Sep 18, 2005

My 04 is in the shop right now for this very repair. My dealer was told the same thing about updated guide seals. I cannot find any updated valve guide seal part numbers to verify this, it must be top secret (or ********). Also if it helps anyone my 04 is 14+ months out of factory warranty w/no extended warranty and Yamaha Canada is picking up the tab, as they should. I had posted about 6 mo. ago that my bike was a ticker and that my dealer advised me to wait as he was told Yam was not sure of the cause. He says this is their latest "fix". This can't be good news for owners that have already been fixed with "old" style seals.

Constant Mesh · Sep 18, 2005

If this is the solution it's unbelievable that it took Yamaha this long to find it.

It's very weird that the problem first appears on the left side of the engine. According to the parts list the same seals are used on both intake and exhaust valves -- 16 identical seals.

Might be a partial solution but I'm skeptical it's a complete solution. However, I do believe the problem is due to inadequate or sporadic valve guide lubrication.

Has anyone had a problem with the intake valves/guides?

markjenn · Sep 18, 2005

Given that we're talking about small variances in failure rates, I could see scenarios where seemingly minor variations in splash lubrication or temperatures in the head could cause variances in valve guide lube from left to right.

If the problem is just the seals, I would think the failure scenario would be that X% of valves would fail with failures scattered across bikes, typically with only one or possibly two valves bad and the rest fine. Instead we seem to have a pattern where X% of motors fail with several bad valves in each motor. This doesn't add up to me.

I agree, if something this simple ends up being the problem, it seems like Yamaha has been remarkably slow on it's feet to ID and fix it. I mean if valve guides are failing, wouldn't the absolute first thing to suspect be seal problems?

WC's talking to Yamaha is the only reason I'm giving this "fix" much credence. And I agree with him - we need to see what happens - it's possible that this is just another attempted fix that might or might not be the solution.

- Mark

MCRIDER007 · Sep 18, 2005

If the problem is just the seals, I would think the failure scenario would be that X% of valves would fail with failures scattered across bikes, typically with only one or possibly two valves bad and the rest fine. Instead we seem to have a pattern where X% of motors fail with several bad valves in each motor. This doesn't add up to me.

Mark, I was at Sunnyside Yamaha a couple of weeks ago and discussed this issue with Dan Denchel and much to my surprise, he said that most of the "tickers" they had fixed only had one bad exhaust valve guide although a couple had had two bad guides. I had thought that Warchild's Timex had 4 bad guides but Dan said he thought that only 2 guides on that bike were bad.

Geezer · Sep 19, 2005

I did mention something about a possible inadequate cooling system as a contributing factor on the other site. Now, the factory has improved the cooling system, according to what I've read. I wonder why they felt the need for that change?

I think that if Yamaha felt that heat was contributing to the tick then they would modify the coolant passages to improve flow to specific areas in the head. Regardless of the heat that ends up on the rider, the heads and the rest of the engine should be pretty consistently at the temperature displayed on our temp. gauge.

That said, if Yamaha has increased the cooling abality of the radiator to keep coolant temperatures from going up to the three and four bar range as often as they do now then that may have been done to solve some engine problems.

Other than the heat on the rider, the thing that bothers me about the hot engine compartment is that the fuel injection system and other electronics can be adversely affected by heat. Wire insulation and other rubber and plastic things will break down faster from high temp's.

So, it is a good thing to get the heat out of the engine compartment, but that won't affect the temperature of the engine itself very much unless it helps air flow through the radiator.

deano · Sep 20, 2005

I talked to the mechanic that is fixing my 04 tick. He said the part # for the new seals is 33m-12119-09-00 old seal part #33m-12119-00-00. Sounds like there is really a new seal. Read link below, maybe Yamaha is on to something. https://www.federal-mogul.com/cda/content/f...36_7501,00.html

jestal · Sep 23, 2005

Geezer · Sep 23, 2005

Jestal, very interesting post. Sounds like you have a fun job, too. After reading your idea about how break-in may have an effect I got thinking about how some of us have used the motorman break-in while others have stuck with the traditional more gentle break-in.

Anybody taken a poll of the tickers to find out how they broke-in their engines?

ionbeam · Sep 23, 2005

IIRC -- In the Lost Ticker Files, Warchild's information showed no correlation between break-in and ticking. In fact there were apparently no common factors -- break-in style, frequency of oil change, type of oil, type of oil filter, elevated air temps, engine rpm range, engine loading...

Alan

deano · Sep 23, 2005

I used the Yamaha recomended break in guidlines for the first 1000kms.

The "dreaded Tick" Solved?

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