'07 FJRA - "Another starter relay needed ?" FYI - Rhetorical rant...

[GMAK]

FYI - Rhetorical rant....

So, here I am again. Dead '07 FJRA, ~35K miles, and presumably,
staring at a third starter relay install(original, 20170518 replace, and,
in need once again). I've been reading various reports here on similar
faults. I have not yet begun further diagnosis, but the current symptoms
are identical to my 20170518 occurrence. And besides, my diagnosis
abilities are very limited.

However, I can add, that all operation(s)(gauge sweep, initial instrument
lighting/warnings, ignition on sounds, etc), are perfectly normal. Just the
starter engage/spin is absent. And....

1. The bike will "run-and-bump" start. Me and the tow driver proved this.
(I ran, and he bumped). Shut it off, and no starter spin again.
2. I also noticed that, in gear, clutch disengaged, side stand up, I can
detect the electrical preparation for starter spin(this would be
normal). But, as I concurrently lower the side stand, I detect
electrical cutout occurs, circumventing any starter spin.

I'm easily confused, but I seemed to recall that the bike could be started
in gear, clutch disengaged, and side stand down. But as I write this I can
see that I am probably wrong because that probably makes no sense.

Anyway, one of the threads I reviewed stated - "The FJR apparently per-
forms some sort of battery “welfare check” early in the start sequence and
will not energize the starter relay and even attempt an actual “start” unless
the battery is in PRIME CONDITION". And, I emphasize PRIME CONDI-
TION.

Will I be forever hostage to a starter relay replacement every ~two years?
In all the motorcycles, automobiles I have owned in several decades, I
have never needed a starter relay replacement!

Maybe my problem is FJR riding frequency/distance. I don't ride every-
day, and these rides are of relatively short distance(5-20 miles). I don't
utilize a tender, but I do frequently place my battery on maintenance
charge cycle when I know I will be riding.

I will soon be "maintenancing" my existing 20170427 'Batteries Plus'
battery, or probably replacing it. Hopefully, that might be my cure. But,
it wasn't the cure for my 20170518 last starter relay dealer replacement.

BTW. My last pre-20170518 starter relay saga appears at:
https://www.fjrforum.com/forum//index.php/topic/171299-dead-fjr-no-starter-engagespin/?hl=%2Bstarter+%2Brelay&do=findComment&comment=1357982

Thanks.

 

[Intech]

First off, the side stand switch will kill the engine if it is down and the transmission in any gear. You can only start the engine with side stand down in neutral.

Second, I really find it hard to believe that starter relays are going bad. If the environment was causing it I would have to believe that you would be having problems with other components.

You can, usually, easily bump start if there is just under the required voltage to turn the starter. A completely flat battery, no. I really suspect that you have a battery issue.

Have you done voltage checks on the battery when it wouldn't turn the starter? Have you ever measured the current draw of your starter? If it is high (>90 amps) a good battery will work a few times and eventually fail to maintain sufficient power to turn over the bad starter. This is a problem I dealt with on a friend's '04. Your symptoms seem strikingly similar.

 

[GMAK]

First off, the side stand switch will kill the engine if it is down and the transmission in any gear. You can only start the engine with side stand down in neutral.
Second, I really find it hard to believe that starter relays are going bad. If the environment was causing it I would have to believe that you would be having problems with other components.

You can, usually, easily bump start if there is just under the required voltage to turn the starter. A completely flat battery, no. I really suspect that you have a battery issue.

Have you done voltage checks on the battery when it wouldn't turn the starter? Have you ever measured the current draw of your starter? If it is high (>90 amps) a good battery will work a few times and eventually fail to maintain sufficient power to turn over the bad starter. This is a problem I dealt with on a friend's '04. Your symptoms seem strikingly similar.

No currently, I've done no diagnostics. I don't really have the equipment/knowledge for such. That's why it's so frustrating. If the starter was "dragging" with a

heavy load, I would have thought that would have been disclosed/corrected at the 20170518 starter relay. Surely, the dealer wouldn't miss something as basic

as this? Would they! <gg> Recall, I never had any issues at all with this starter relay prior to 201705/~31.5K miles. Even though I'd have batteries weaken and

be replaced. Of course, regarding a high load starter, then my last statement was simply rhetorical. On a more factual, but only observational topic, if a high load

starter can be audibly detected, I certainly detect no sound of dragging/??. Usually, and actually ~1.5 hours before failure, the bike seemed to spin up and come

to life with little effort. However, that ride, more typical than not, was probably 3 miles maximum, from home. Which it where I was returning.

I'm further pondering my options/paths now. Do I really want to return to the dealer of the last failure, ~2 years ago?

Thanks, for your contribution(s).

 

[Intech]

There is no "audible" sound from a bad starter. I have replaced two of them. You have to measure the current draw to determine.

If it is the dealer that has claimed it was the starter relay then I would not have any faith in that dealer. It is hard to find one that really knows what they are doing. In all the years I have been dealing with FJR's I can't recall ever hearing that someone had to replace a starter relay. Always ask for the parts back that they replaced. I believe you would have a good spare relay. I. too, suspected the relay when dealing with the bike with the starter issue. I took the starter out of the bike and tested it and it was drawing well over 100 amps with no load. I would definitely check the starter before doing anything else.

You need to find another FJR owner near you that is familiar with working on the bike.

 

[dcarver]

Here's my .02, after dealing with starters too.

1. Starter is drawing huge current load. Read the link, mine was drawing 170 freaking amps!
2. Hi current loads, carried via the relay, will cause premature relay failure. It two relays before I figured out the ROOT problem was the starter.
3. FjRay refurbishes starter motors for 80 bucks IIRC. You send Ray your core, he sends you a refurbished starter.

The link above is a pretty good tutorial on how to replace a starter.

Good Luck!

Oh, an Extec DC clamp-on ammeter is relatively cheap and a great tool to have in the box.

https://vimeo.com/182802622

 

[philter]

FJR starter relays are a dime a dozen on Ebay. If you change it once and it takes you an hour {it's right behind the battery on the right side, at least on my FJR} you can do it in 30 minutes the next time. I have two, I can send the best one for 5 dollars shipping. I know that none of this explains WHY. but it sure cut's out that bill from the dealer. LOL

P. S. if you take off the battery covers and aren't a dweeb, you can SHORT across the two main copper terminals with a wire or a pair of needlenose and the starter should turn over. {there will be sparks, LOL} If it does, and you feel froggy, you can run a jumper from the ground side of the battery to the red/white wire on top of the relay {with the key on} and that should ALSO activate the starter. IF THAT works there is no problem with your relay, I think.

Ray, or anyone else, jump in here if I am telling him something that will ruin something. LOL

Please don't jump in, if you just think it's not smart to work on your own bike. LOL

 

[BigOgre]

You guys are hitting all the right points but just a thought towards the battery. While bike has about 35k miles on it, if used for much of that as the OP indicated, i.e. short jaunts of approx. three miles, then the numerous cycles of the starter would make it more equivalent to a higher mileage bike. Add to that possibly not restoring the (Batteries +) battery during the short rides and I would suggest getting that thing hooked up to a smart maintainer as one of the first steps.

 

[GMAK]

There is no "audible" sound from a bad starter. I have replaced two of them. You have to measure the current draw to determine.

In my recent forum review, looking for similar faults, I saw many owners that reported "slow to spin" | "dragging starters". That audible sensation

was my reference to starter sound warning/detection.

If it is the dealer that has claimed it was the starter relay then I would not have any faith in that dealer. It is hard to find one that really knows what they are doing. In all the years I have been dealing with FJR's I can't recall ever hearing that someone had to replace a starter relay. Always ask for the parts back that they replaced. I believe you would have a good spare relay. I. too, suspected the relay when dealing with the bike with the starter issue. I took the starter out of the bike and tested it and it was drawing well over 100 amps with no load. I would definitely check the starter before doing anything else.

I'm in no position to argue, and I agree with your assessments. But, it seems to me that having a bad starter(unloaded, high current draw) is

more criminal on a <35K FJR, than having a bad relay.

Not that I'm defending the 201705 repair dealer, but they came and got the dead bike, hauled it to their facility, reported the fault cause to

me, and I retrieved the repaired bike. The bike wouldn't start when sent to the dealer, and returned working for nearly 2 years. Maybe not

permanent, but the dealer must have done something positive to it.

You need to find another FJR owner near you that is familiar with working on the bike.

Maybe not FJR specific tycoons, but I probably can gain access to others more knowledgeable than I.

Thanks. Like I said earlier, I'm slowly devising a plan.

 

[GMAK]

Here's my .02, after dealing with starters too.

1. Starter is drawing huge current load. Read the link, mine was drawing 170 freaking amps!
2. Hi current loads, carried via the relay, will cause premature relay failure. It two relays before I figured out the ROOT problem was the starter.
3. FjRay refurbishes starter motors for 80 bucks IIRC. You send Ray your core, he sends you a refurbished starter.

The link above is a pretty good tutorial on how to replace a starter.

I remember visiting your story on my previous search for "starter relay". It's the "Krzy8" that I recall. Thank you for the

information. It may be very valuable if the starter is bad like you describe.

Good Luck!
Oh, an Extec DC clamp-on ammeter is relatively cheap and a great tool to have in the box.

https://vimeo.com/182802622

 

[GMAK]

FJR starter relays are a dime a dozen on Ebay. If you change it once and it takes you an hour {it's right behind the battery on the right side, at least on my FJR} you can do it in 30 minutes the next time. I have two, I can send the best one for 5 dollars shipping. I know that none of this explains WHY. but it sure cut's out that bill from the dealer. LOL
P. S. if you take off the battery covers and aren't a dweeb, you can SHORT across the two main copper terminals with a wire or a pair of needlenose and the starter should turn over. {there will be sparks, LOL} If it does, and you feel froggy, you can run a jumper from the ground side of the battery to the red/white wire on top of the relay {with the key on} and that should ALSO activate the starter. IF THAT works there is no problem with your relay, I think.

I recall Fords from the 60's/70's with the relay usually mounted somewhere kinda' close to the battery. Most often on an inner

fender. That arcing technique was a popular tactic then to get the vehicle to start that otherwise would not. However, I recall

(perhaps incorrectly), that the tactic was only practiced by those with a bad relay. It seems that if the relay was good there'd

be no reason for the arcing bypass maneuver. Or so it seems to me. But, I fully understand your suggestion. You're right, it

will produce some fireworks. I think most vehicle manufacturer's have relocated their relays for greater concealment.

Thank you, for the suggestion. It would be a valuable test.

Ray, or anyone else, jump in here if I am telling him something that will ruin something. LOL
Please don't jump in, if you just think it's not smart to work on your own bike. LOL

 

[GMAK]

You guys are hitting all the right points but just a thought towards the battery. While bike has about 35k miles on it, if used for much of that as the OP indicated, i.e. short jaunts of approx. three miles, then the numerous cycles of the starter would make it more equivalent to a higher mileage bike. Add to that possibly not restoring the (Batteries +) battery during the short rides and I would suggest getting that thing hooked up to a smart maintainer as one of the first steps.

I seem to recall that back at my 201705 relay saga, I had just replaced the battery with the FJR version YUASA. I began

having intermittent dead start faults, but usually could "wiggle" past them. The problem continued, and became less and

less intermittent, until it was a hard fault. I thought it was the new(but probably faulty) battery. I then replaced the YUASA

battery with a Batteries Plus FJR version, and the starter fault ceased. All this chronology occurred long before the final

201705 dealer repair. Might have been as long as a year. I'm not sure. The 201705 dealer repair was launched in response

to the ultimate final failure that could no longer be circumvented or ignored. Then, the relay was replaced, and I thought I'd

be looking at 1,000's of trouble free miles, never to be stranded again. Nope, that hasn't played out exactly as I planned.

My small biker group does regularly rag at me for not employing a tender type device. But, my charger does have the tender

type circuitry to simulate that function. I just don't use it 24/7.

Thank you, for your ideas, suggestions, and contributions.

 

[road runner]

Get a factory service manual and test it, or pay someone who can. I replace a relay that was bad, it does happen.

 

[GMAK]

Get a factory service manual and test it, or pay someone who can. I replace a relay that was bad, it does happen.

I did forget to mention, I do have the service manual. It came with the bike. I was looking through it last night. Although it does

detail these tests(starter relay, starter, battery, etc.), it's a little short on very basic information. Like, I don't think it ever explains

the exact location of the starter relay. But, it does identify the part #'s of testing equipment needed for various diagnostics.

I did think I found, and paid, someone for the testing and correction, in the dealer repair 201705. Apparently, I was mistaken.

Thank you for your comments, and suggestions. I will report the final findings, once known.

 

[road runner]

If it went 2 years, I would say they did fix it , and this is another problem. It could be another relay, who knows, get it checked.

 

[RossKean]

As dcarver mentioned, the root cause of a starter relay (or two or three!) going bad is most likely too much current being drawn by the starter motor. Test this before you waste more time and money dealing with relays. The relay likely needs replacement (again) but you will be doing it yet again in another year or so if you don't deal with the main issue.

Don't know anything about any sort of battery "welfare check". If voltage is too low, it might not fully engage the relay or run the ECU so I suppose this is some sort of check. (Battery would have to be pretty dead)

Note: If the starter is drawing a very high current, you aren't doing any favors for your battery either.

 

[GMAK]

If it went 2 years, I would say they did fix it , and this is another problem. It could be another relay, who knows, get it checked.

Thanks, see subsequent 04/20 OP update.

As dcarver mentioned, the root cause of a starter relay (or two or three!) going bad is most likely too much current being drawn by the starter motor. Test this before you waste more time and money dealing with relays. The relay likely needs replacement (again) but you will be doing it yet again in another year or so if you don't deal with the main issue.
Don't know anything about any sort of battery "welfare check". If voltage is too low, it might not fully engage the relay or run the ECU so I suppose this is some sort of check. (Battery would have to be pretty dead)

Note: If the starter is drawing a very high current, you aren't doing any favors for your battery either.

Thanks, see subsequent 04/20 OP update.

 

[GMAK]

OP update:

I contacted(email) the dealer that performed the 05/2017 starter relay repair, and I documented my 04/16/2019 replay event(s).

I've asked for their suggestions, comments, or advice. I'm awaiting their reply(s). I'll post any/all further information here if, and

when, it's received.

 

[Fred W]

GMAK, I think what folks are saying is that it would be very unusual to have had two starter relays go bad in such a relatively short time. Partly because, while they can go bad, they just dont go bad that often on these machines, so it would be extremely bad luck to have two go bad. But, maybe you are just the extremely unlucky guy it happened to?

If it happened to me I would be searching for other things that would be causing those relays to fail. Exactly what that might be is a good question since relays are fairly hardy devices. But generally speaking when an unusual failure happens more than once there is some underlying reason it happened at all.

Good luck in your troubleshooting.

 

[Intech]

BTW, I have a spare starter relay if you want it. Just pay postage.