'07 FJRA - "Another starter relay needed ?" FYI - Rhetorical rant...

[GMAK]

GMAK, I think what folks are saying is that it would be very unusual to have had two starter relays go bad in such a relatively short time. Partly because, while they can go bad, they just dont go bad that often on these machines, so it would be extremely bad luck to have two go bad. But, maybe you are just the extremely unlucky guy it happened to?
If it happened to me I would be searching for other things that would be causing those relays to fail. Exactly what that might be is a good question since relays are fairly hardy devices. But generally speaking when an unusual failure happens more than once there is some underlying reason it happened at all.

Good luck in your troubleshooting.

Yes Fred, I think you have detailed my position well. On the 052017 relay replacement, the invoice explains a diagnosis process.

It seems to me that one of the following must have occurred:

1. The diagnosis was not comprehensive(overlooking the starter draw, previously mentioned in this thread).

2. The relay was identified as faulty, and the replacement is again, faulty(mine/your disbelief).

3. The diagnosis, as opposed to using specific measurement equipment, was simply a guess that worked. Possibly

ignoring true cause.

If I can't get a definitive cause identified and corrected, the bike is useless. Because I'll be in forever fear of the next

failure occurrence, and another stranding.

I'm no Nikola Tesla, but the previous references to excessive power draws from the starter, seems like that would

result in a blown fuse somewhere. I didn't quite understand the condition(s) where this excessive power draw from

the starter was occurring. Was that a starter leak, only during starter spin, or some other condition. There was a

report of another contributor's starter drawing 170a. My current battery is only rated at 210cca. I would think that it

wouldn't take long for that to quickly become a big problem. The dealer's technician's are supposed to be the expert's

in this/these assessment/s. If they can't identify/correct the problem, the only advantage I have is unlimited determination.

 

[GMAK]

BTW, I have a spare starter relay if you want it. Just pay postage.

Thanks intech, I'll keep that in mind. But, I don't mind buying the parts necessary. If they're to last as expected.

Besides, taking your relay would leave *you* at risk of eventual failure. That would be no better !

Thanks.

 

[RossKean]

A fair number of people have reported problems with starter motors on FJRs. Does NOT result in a blown fuse. The main symptom is that it gets harder to start, especially when hot. It IS going to be hard on starter relays - contacts get burned when passing excessive current. A lot of batteries have been replaced with the mistaken assumption that the battery was the root cause. A brand new battery might mask the symptoms for a time but is not a permanent fix. The high current draw is very hard on the battery and will instantly pinpoint one that is less than totally healthy.

Just check the cranking amps using a clamp-on DC ammeter. If it is over 80 amps or so (and I am betting it will be), replace the starter (and possibly the toasted relay). You may wish to get a reconditioned one - read dcarver's link.

 

[Intech]

As Ross says the high amp draw of the starter doesn't typically blow the main fuse. Everything else he said is spot on with the experience I had with Luvtoride's bike. Twice. I did check her starter relay too. That is why I have the spare relay. It is yours if you want it. If I need one down the road I am sure I can get another. Not having it won't strand me as I don't carry it with me anyway.

 

[dcarver]

As Ross says the high amp draw of the starter doesn't typically blow the main fuse. Everything else he said is spot on with the experience I had with Luvtoride's bike. Twice. I did check her starter relay too. That is why I have the spare relay. It is yours if you want it. If I need one down the road I am sure I can get another. Not having it won't strand me as I don't carry it with me anyway.

YES. Never blew the seal or the main fuse even when drawing 100+ amps...

 

[mcatrophy]

As Ross says the high amp draw of the starter doesn't typically blow the main fuse. Everything else he said is spot on with the experience I had with Luvtoride's bike. Twice. I did check her starter relay too. That is why I have the spare relay. It is yours if you want it. If I need one down the road I am sure I can get another. Not having it won't strand me as I don't carry it with me anyway.

YES. Never blew the seal or the main fuse even when drawing 100+ amps...

That's because the starter current doesn't go through any fuse.

 

[dcarver]

As Ross says the high amp draw of the starter doesn't typically blow the main fuse. Everything else he said is spot on with the experience I had with Luvtoride's bike. Twice. I did check her starter relay too. That is why I have the spare relay. It is yours if you want it. If I need one down the road I am sure I can get another. Not having it won't strand me as I don't carry it with me anyway.

YES. Never blew the seal or the main fuse even when drawing 100+ amps...

That's because the starter current doesn't go through any fuse.

SmartyPants! :rofl:

 

[GMAK]

RossKean - 04/21/2019 @ 19:27
Intech - 04/22/2019 @ 01:57
dcarver - 04/22/2019 @ 19:46
mcatrophy - 04/23/2019 @ 12:29
dcarver - 04/23/2019 @ 14:08

Thanks. I've been reflecting on this history of events with this saga. I don't have all the chronology dates specifically nailed down, but
I'm gonna' try and paint a loose timeline on my FJR events. I Understand that the only final answer will probably be determined by
electronic diagnostic measurement, just as has been suggested.

But, I wanted to replay some of the events that have just been making me crazy.

. 08/26/2016: - I'm preparing documentation for service request(new rear tire, new valve stem, new Yuasa battery, and brake pad
inspection) by a local independent shop that I have used before. I normally replace batteries myself, but....
. 09/01/2016: - The service request(s) have been completed, and paid. The FJR has 30.094K miles.
. 09/16/2016: - Rolled into gas station late one evening. Filled up. And the FJR won't start. Nothing I do will engage starter. I call
roadside assist(RA), and have the FJR towed to the 09/01/2016 service shop site.
. 09/17/2016: - I get the FJR returned. I suggested the battery/install is faulty. But I'm not given any explanation of correction.
. 10/05/2016: - I notice that one of my headlights is off. I wonder if this is related to some of the 09/01/2016 work? I visit a distant
Yamaha dealer, and get both bulbs replaced, for precaution. So, everything look good, let's ride. As it's closing in
on fall weather, my FJR usage will lessen significantly. But, there will be sporadic riding opportunities.
. 04/27/2017: - I've been having intermittent problems with this starter engage, the same as 09/16/2016. Usually, the bike will start
but you never know. The fault has already resulted in 2-3 RA calls. One was resolved with a "jump box" start. So I
rip out the Yuasa battery, and replace it with a "Batteries Plus" counterpart. After battery replacement, the FJR
seems to start and run just fine.
. 05/18/2017: - Start problems continue. Now to the point where electric start is simply not possible. The FJR is retrieved by the
nearby dealer for diagnosis/correction.
. 05/26/2017: - The FJR is retrieved from the dealer. Starter operation seems great. Dealer reports replacement of the starter
relay.
. 04/18/2018: - Requested brake inspection service from 05/26/2017 dealer.
. 05/09/2018: - The FJR needed brake service, RF fork seal leaking, etc. I modified brake service for new pads on all rotors,
and both LF/RF fork seal replacements, as a precaution. The FJR returned today.
. 04/16/2019: - Been riding the FJR without problem. Took the bike on a 3-4 mile errand. Ready to return, the FJR won't start.
Identical symptoms as all previous no-start activity. Again, I call RA, FJR is towed home. But, the tow driver(a
bike owner himself) wants to try and push start the FJR. So, I tell him to get on the bike, make sure the bike is
in 2nd gear, and the tow driver is prepared to "bump" hard on the seat when ready. So, I run the bike down the
alley and give the signal, and the FJR fires right up and runs very well. Rode the bike into the garage and shut
it off.

 

[GMAK]

I just wanted to add an FYI update here:

Earlier today, I picked up a new Batteries Plus XTA14B-BS for the FJR.
Put the new battery on a maintenance cycle charge, and saw that the new
battery was fully charged.
Using small grit sandpaper, I worked diligently on the three wire connect-
ors, until they were bright and shiny.
Carefully installed the battery, and all connections.
Switched on the bike, and hit the starter. Nothing, identical symptom as I
have described previously.
I then experimented with stand lockout switches, clutch lockout switches,
and gear locjout switches, to no avail.
Put the bike in gear, rocked it back and forth to possible move a gear
tooth somewhere that might be inhibiting the starter. But, I mostly knew
that these activities were going nowhere, 'cause they'd been tried so
many times before.
So, I began putting all my tools, and other items away. And before I
left he bike in a cloud of frustration, I brought out my spotlight.

Using the light, I began inspecting those two small boxes located just
behind the battery. I can see the the box closest to he tank host quite
a few incoming wires. So, I figure that box is not the relay unit.

The other box, farthest from the tank, was not showing connectors that
I could see. But, still further behind thos two boxes, is rather meaty plug
having a white cap. based on the size of that white plug, I'd say it has
an above average demand. Anyway, as best I could, I routed a single
finger(all that would fit) back to that white plug and pushed/wiggled as
much as possible.

Then I did some other exporing with the light, but I couldn't see anything
that stood out as suspect. Convinced I'd mostly done nothing during this
electrical exploration, I gathered up some more tools/items, and prepar-
ed my return inside. But, I decided to try the start just once again, before
accepting defeat.

And with the fresh battery, the starter spun up like an industrial sewing
machine. Almost the immediately, the bike started, and was running
on typical fast idle. This really surprised me, almost to the point of fright
when the starter kicked in. So, I thought, I'll try that again, it probably
won't start again. Yes, the next start was as crisp as the first.

So, I went through several short start tests without any failures. But, I'm
not crazy, I don't have the confidence at this point to ride the bike as nor-
mal. Really, I'm not sure I'll ever regain that confidence.

Thanks.

 

[GMAK]

One other thing please.... Could I request someone with a Gen2 FJR(
they may all be the same), look at their plug(that I described), and tell
me if theirs looks more fully seated than:
https://www.amazon.com/clouddrive/share/S1xrmpvuFLPLLD227kv1zkzNXCwVC7mxRIbN9tknsGE

There's three pictures there of the plug(the last is the best). But, it looks
to me like the female part of the plug is not fully seated on the male part.

Notice the small area of the male part of the plug showing at the base of
the female cover cap. Before I attempt to fully seat this plug, I'd like to
understand if that's appropriate.


Thanks.

 

[Auburn]

the white connector in the third picture is a wire to the coil I believe. Both coils sit in the area you describe. It looks to be fully seated.

 

[dcarver]

Agree with Auburn

 

[GMAK]

FJR Commander - Posted 29 April 2019 - 09:53 PM

FJR Forum Post Whore - Posted 30 April 2019 - 11:18 AM

Thank ya'll(common Texas reference) for the replies. I dicked around with the

plug some more, until I got the start to fail again.

It seems related either to that plug, of the moderate "wiggling" done to those

two small plastic boxes, just in front of the plug. But, for all I know, the issue

could be related to the rear tire air pressure.

I'm gonna' take of that side fairing panel, so I can get a good look. And begin

to review what king of electronic testing devices I need to validate these other

diagnostics mentioned.

I'll Update with meaningful results.

Thanks.

 

[Auburn]

The two small boxes in front of the coils are fuse boxes. Maybe you have a loose connection in there? Or a fuse that is not seated properly?

 

[GMAK]

The two small boxes in front of the coils are fuse boxes. Maybe you have a loose connection in there? Or a fuse that is not seated properly?

Yes, I guess that is possible. As I said, I'm going to remove that fairing panel to gain greater access.

Snoop around there for a while since earlier restricted snooping brought the starter to life several times.

Then, if I can't gain any progress there, I guess I'll dig into tester(s) purchase, and perform the diagnostics

(starter, relay, battery(however, the battery is new)), that others have strongly suggested in earlier text.

My earlier snooping around in that battery area did involve trying to wiggle the connection I imaged earlier,

as well as, the fuse boxes. But, I never opened either fuse box. Honestly, at this moment, I don't really know

how to open either fuse box. But, I think I can figure it out if needed. Oddly enough, I was looking online at

the owner's manual yesterday. It has more basic information on those fuse boxes than does the service manual.

I guess this is a long shot, but I also was thinking recently that maybe something had gone awry with the ignition

switch recall replacement. But, I had that corrected years ago, although I haven't the record of when. Yamaha

has the recall record though. Another issue is I just don't have the time/dedication/inclination to make a career

out of diagnosing a situation on this bike, that shouldn't be occurring anyway.

But, I was just looking online at a 2019 Concours 14. It's beginning to look more and more attractive day-by-day.

Thanks.

 

[road runner]

Seeing as you don't trust the FJR, I'll take it off you hands for 100.00 dollars

 

[GMAK]

Seeing as you don't trust the FJR, I'll take it off you hands for 100.00 dollars

I'm not sure it would like the weather in NY. <g>

FYI though.... The last time(2-3 days ago) that I fooled with it, I left it in a no-start condition.

Moments ago, I was passing through the garage, and thought I'd just give it

a try once again.

Started right up, and I hadn't touched it since that last time. This is crazy.

Next, when I return to it, I guess I'll see what I can do to make it fail, now.

 

[YummYam]

God, that must be so, so frustrating. Going through a not quite so maddening time here.

You have my sympathy, empathy, whatever.

Good luck finding the crock of gold.

 

[GMAK]

God, that must be so, so frustrating. Going through a not quite so maddening time here.
You have my sympathy, empathy, whatever.

Good luck finding the crock of gold.

Thanks FJR Squadron Leader...

Yes, it has been frustrating.If/when I ever find the problem definitively, at least it

will be forever(I hope) memorialized here, for another rider.

Thanks.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Sounds like you found the area where there's a bad wire, bad connection, etc.

Simply manipulating various wires there until the non-crank issue arises should only require some

patience..

Good luck