'07 FJRA - "Another starter relay needed ?" FYI - Rhetorical rant...

[GMAK]

Sounds like you found the area where there's a bad wire, bad connection, etc.
Simply manipulating various wires there until the non-crank issue arises should only require some

patience..

Good luck

Well, after the new battery, it's started every time I've tried. I've found a guy with the ability.

and test equipment, that can perform the diagnosis that had been requested from me ear-

lier(mostly a large starter power draw. I'd have to look back at the earlier suggestions).

Battery diagnosis was also requested. Although I'll request that, I doubt a new battery will

indicate any faults.

The testing guy is not a MC mechanic, but I have the service manual explaining the tests.

But, the service manual is pretty vague at times. Can we gain adequate starter access to

perform this test others requested? It looks like the starter is below the clutch, behind the

coolant inlet. Let me refresh my recall with the manual, and work from there.

Thanks.

 

[RossKean]

You can measure the starting current at the battery - don't need to directly access the starter. Just need a clamp-on DC ammeter.

 

[GMAK]

You can measure the starting current at the battery - don't need to directly access the starter. Just need a clamp-on DC ammeter.

Please forgive my inexperience, but is a clamp on DC ammeter any different from an

ammeter with two probes. I understand the battery voltage test, that simply measures

the idle battery voltage strength. In the "starting current at the battery", where is the

ammeter(either probe(s), or clamp) attached to make that measurement.

Also, rereading:

https://www.fjrforum.com/forum//index.php/topic/174941-2008-fjr-ae-starting-anomaly/?hl=%2Bstarter+%2Brelay&do=findComment&comment=1402190

from 20180730 @ 11:24 - "2008 FJR-AE Starting Anomaly", JimNtexas make the following statement:

"The FJR apparently performs some sort of battery “welfare check” early in the start sequence and will not energize the starter relay and even attempt an actual “start” unless the battery is in PRIME CONDITION."

I think JNt is on to something. It seems that something like that could only produce the

intermittent/erratic problem(s) that I've experienced. It seems like the system has some

kind of capacitor that guards against failure unless the capacitor can be fully energized.

Because, I have reported the few times when the starter won't spin, but would start just

fine after simply ignoring it for several hours, or overnight.

Tell me how to connect the tester, and I'll get the guy here to test the function. I have

reasonable battery access, but anything else will require some plastic removal.

Thanks.

 

[RossKean]

A clamp-on DC ammeter is very different. First of all, a typical ammeter that you place in series with your test circuit is normally fused at 10 amps max. Even a healthy starter would blow the fuse!

A clamp-on meter has "jaws" that are placed around a conductor and current is measured by the induction field set up by current flow. The clamp-on meters can generally measure up to hundreds of amperes. If you get a clamp-on meter, make sure that it is capable of measuring DC amps as well as AC. (Some are only AC). This is what one looks like:

The jaws open up and the wire runs through the opening. The meter doesn't even have to touch the wire and nothing needs to be disconnected.

 

[GMAK]

A clamp-on DC ammeter is very different. First of all, a typical ammeter that you place in series with your test circuit is normally fused at 10 amps max. Even a healthy starter would blow the fuse

OK, Thanks.

 

[GMAK]

OK, I've obtained a tester:https://www.bing.com/search?q=schumacher%20bt%20100%20youtube&qs=SC&sk=SC4&pq=schumacher%20bt100&sp=5&sc=6-16&form=BDKTMA&pc=BDT1&shash=&BDParam=0000&mkt=en-US

1. The battery in the bike, although it's not been on charge for a couple of days, reads ~12.8.

The FJR shop manual reads "=>12.8 charge complete, =<12.7 charge, <12.0 replace".

2. The tester has a button that's used for "load". Once the clips are connected to the battery,

the button is depressed(<10 seconds) to measure this load. The measurement drops to

~10.4, and the unit begins to get very hot. For my testing, the unit registered readings

very similar to this videoMy readings appeared just a little higher, maybe due to new battery)

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=schumacher+bt+100+youtube&view=detail&mid=D0EB540398059478E9EAD0EB540398059478E9EA&FORM=VIRE

Of course, I'm unable to measure the charging system.

3. At https://www.yamaha-dealers.com/public/web/techpubs/nhtsaPublications.html You can

review the status of recalls on your bike, via the VIN lookup. My bike shows all recalls as

completed. except the "Wire Harness Assy". However, reading the 11V-338 document, it

seems to indicate the "Wire Sub Lead" as alternative. Is the single black wire connected

to my battery negative post, the "Wire Sub Lead" referenced here? Is this "Wire Sub Lead"

supposed to provide some backup ground connection? Could it be faulty?

4. I did notice that the severity of the problem(s) with my bike has increased somewhat. I now

see that the odometer reads "12" at ignition on. I'd have to review previous notes, but I

believe this also occurred during my previous 2017 saga of same behavior.

5. I also removed, cleaned fuse receptacle with compressed air, and re-seated fuses on the

inboard receptacle. Without benefit. I've not done the outboard receptacle as yet.

6. Is the Starter Relay located somewhere near the battery? I assume a panel removal will

be required for adequate access?

7. With the exception of the odometer, al other electrical items seem to work fine. windshield,

hazard flashers(and I assume signals), Instrument panel information, etc. I don't recall

checking the time, taillight, brake light, obviously, no headlight until start.

8. I also obtained a Battery Tender(022-0186G-DL-WH). Ensuring that my previous charger

was not defective in some way. The BT works well. It begins with the amber glow, and then

adds flashing green. In a very short time, the flashing green goes solid, and the amber

drops. It does seem like this sequence will be repeated without regard to how recent the

last charge occurred. IOW, If the battery sat on solid green charge all night, and I disconn-

ected/reconnected, it seems like the amber/green sequence would still repeat.

9. I also visited the FJROwners site, and snooped around concerning my nostart problem.

Maybe it's just me, but they seem to have a lot more conversation(s) on the topic. Of

course, they may be a lot older also. I believe they're out of UK/Canada, and probably

had FJR's before US. I know I saw some reference(s) to 2001 models.

Thanks.

 

[RossKean]

That tester is just to test the ability of the battery to maintain voltage under whatever load the device imposes on the battery. (How much load - resistance - does the tester place on the battery?)
You still need an appropriate ammeter to determine the current drawn by the starter motor when cranking.

Not sure what you mean when you say the odometer reads 12 with ignition on.

Fault code 12 is "No normal signals are received from the crankshaft position sensor."
If it goes away after you crank the engine, I wouldn't worry about it.

You really need to test that starter before you go any further.

 

[GMAK]

That tester is just to test the ability of the battery to maintain voltage under whatever load the device imposes on the battery. (How much load - resistance - does the tester place on the battery?)You still need an appropriate ammeter to determine the current drawn by the starter motor when cranking.

Not sure what you mean when you say the odometer reads 12 with ignition on.

Fault code 12 is "No normal signals are received from the crankshaft position sensor."

If it goes away after you crank the engine, I wouldn't worry about it.

You really need to test that starter before you go any further.

"SM" = Service Manual

OK, do I need to purchase the Klein CL380 tester, that you displayed on May 14, @ 18:11?

Regarding the odometer, I simply mean that when I turn on the ignition switch, all the gauges,

information lights, initialization lights, etc. perform as expected. I just went out an reviewed

the operation. The taillight, turn signals, windshield, hazard flashers, stoplight, and even the

dashboard right button to cycle through/reset trip meter 1&2 & view MPG, all works fine.

The "12" means that rather than showing the mileage odometer of 34623(as I recall), only

the number "12" occupies the odometer area. Also, I cannot reset the clock. This is done

(as you know) by depressing the 2 dashboard buttons simultaneously, and then adjusting

the hours and or minutes. Of course, the time is off because of earlier battery removal.

I'm not familiar with the display of FJR fault codes. Are you saying that the "12" replacing

the odometer value is actually a fault code? You may be right. SM PP 1-29 somewhat details

the fault code location schematic. It appears to be located just above the gear indicator box

in the dashboard window. After hunting down the fault codes(no table contents/index exists),

I see on SM PP 8-66 where fault codes are documented. The "12" is as you stated.

I went back to my letter from 05/13/2017, presented to the dealer during the first correction

of this problem. I reference the odometer number absence, but it reads like - "but I have

noticed the odometer has disappeared, or is inaccurate, and the clock set maneuver

by using both instrument buttons, does not work." So, I don't specifically mention the

"12" replacing the odometer, but I'm almost 100% sure the "12" was there in 2017, as it is

now. I had read that these incorrect instrument values(like the odometer "12") were products

due to lack/misdirected power to operate the unit completely. The 05/2017 service for the

same problem, never mentioned any "Crankshaft Position Sensor" problem.

If you suggest purchase of the "appropriate ammeter" for starter test, you'll have to help me

with the testing. Although I've done lots of mechanical upkeep. It was years ago, and that does

not include electrical. Mainly because I'm color blind. But I can get spousal help with that.

Can you guide me with that? Or, should I just return it to the dealer now?

Maybe I should "jump/arc" the starter relay before the starter test. Wouldn't that tell me if the

relay is bad, and save gaining access to a much more concealed starter(probably)?

Did you notice my disclosure of this video? It's not me, but I ran across is during this research.

The FJR starting behavior is identical to mine.




Thanks.

 

[RossKean]

Video mentions an FJR 1400 - wonder where I can get one of those...?

I do not recommend buying that meter just to test the starting current. That said, you have to know how many amps the starter is trying to draw but unless you understand how to use it, I think you would be wise to get some local assistance.

If it isn't even "trying" to turn over then try jumping the starter relay. If it starts without drama then the relay needs replacement but you might STILL have a problem with the starter motor that needs to be addressed. If the relay has failed, this is not a random occurrence - something blew it, especially since it isn't the only one you have had to replace.

I think the "12" is an error code that should clear itself once the engine is started.

(It may be a random thing that popped up during a failed start attempt.)

The clock set may not work until the error is cleared - not sure.

If you do not feel comfortable with electrical stuff, I think you really need to have someone with the specific knowledge/skillset (and tools) to help you out. If it is the starter, your dealer/mechanic missed it so I might look elsewhere.

Sorry, I don't think I can do anything more without actually seeing it in person. Perhaps someone else has some insight? Sometimes difficult just to know the right questions to ask.

Good luck with it and please post back here with updates - I'm quite curious about this one.

 

[GMAK]

Thanks, I'll try to devise a successful plan, whether DIY or dealer directed.

You can be sure that results, whether intermittent or final, will be reported here.

Thanks again for your interest.

I think the FJR1400 is probably the new "oversquare" model currently in design

phase, at the bottom of a beer can. <g>

I just realized/noticed you're in Canada? Is that right, Fredericton, NB. That's

New Brunswick right? Many years ago, I was a weekly traveler to Toronto for

an extended computer project at the TSE(I think it's now called TSX) I rode my

first subway in Toronto, saw my first street vendor, first residential basement,

and first street performer on Yonge street. Guess I'm kinda' sheltered. <g>

Even if it is ~850 miles from you, That's just a lunch run in Texas. <g>

Toronto was one of my favorite towns. Great city.

 

[dcarver]

Some links may be helpful..

• Starter Motor Replacement
• Starter Relay Replacement and Destructive Testing Results
  
• More Starter Motor Info
  
• Starter Motor pulling 170 <gasp> Amps

 

[dcarver]

Maybe I should "jump/arc" the starter relay before the starter test. Wouldn't that tell me if therelay is bad, and save gaining access to a much more concealed starter(probably)?

Did you notice my disclosure of this video? It's not me, but I ran across is during this research.

The FJR starting behavior is identical to mine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWI7bwlppQ

1. Yes. Try jumping relay first. Use at least 10 gauge wire. Don't overdue the connection time. If the starter motor is partially shorted, e.g. very high current draw, that wire will get hot fast. Like a toaster wire.

2. Interesting lights on video. Need to look at my 2006 FJR and figure out what they are.. Engine light and ABS? Or?

 

[GMAK]

Some links may be helpful..

• Starter Motor Replacement
  
• Starter Relay Replacement and Destructive Testing Results
  
• More Starter Motor Info
  
• Starter Motor pulling 170 <gasp> Amps

I started looking at these pictures, and almost forgot I'm supposed to be researching my FJR's no-start problem.

• More Starter Motor Info

https://candybuttorg.ipage.com/pix/rides/2016-09-12%20RR5/Day6%20PNW%20RideNorthEastofLaPine/27.jpg

Although I've never seen one in metal(this one looks metal, maybe just the image shine), that "boat with a mack

10 engine" is a good 'ole 60's "HydroKart". A miniaturized hydroplane(about go-kart sized), powered by a Mac-

10(in this example).

https://www.vintagehydroplanes.com/Blog/hydrocart-history/

https://candybuttorg.ipage.com/pix/rides/2016-09-12%20RR5/Day6%20PNW%20RideNorthEastofLaPine/46.jpg

That is a bona fide Pit Bull(aka Staffordshire Bull Terrier). Bad reputations, for great dogs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Staffordshire_Bull_Terrier

https://candybuttorg.ipage.com/pix/rides/2016-09-12%20RR5/Day6%20PNW%20RideNorthEastofLaPine/75.jpg

The guy with the silver FJR has a Corbin "Smuggler". I'm jealous.

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/fjr1300ownersassociation/corbin-smuggler-t2474.html

 

[GMAK]

WOW! it's been a long time since 03/30/2019's last entry.

Just a note to update the status on my FJR's continuing sage:

. I continued research and learned that a recall was issued in ~2011 for a "ground wire junction". I began to follow this research, and learned that this had been

a major problem. The site providing the most revealing information was https://www.safercar.gov/. the NHTSA's site that explains vehicle recalls.

. I had reviewed the NHTSA's site(https://vinrcl.safercar.gov/vin/) where a VIN can be used to inquire on a vehicle's recall status. My FJR had always shown zero

open recalls. I thought this was strange because I'd only had done, the ignition switch replacement in 2009. Not too long after buying the bike from the owner.

. Well, the VIN inquiry doesn't tell when/where all my completed recall were performed. It was through interface with Yamaha Cypress, CA, that I learned of the

dealer that performed all these recalls on my FJR.

. Unfortunately, there's just one thing wrong... I've never been to the dealer named. I wasn't provided the recall completion dates, but it doesn't matter if I'd never

been to that dealer. I could've been to the dealer, It's in my state, and a few neighboring towns about 30 miles away. But, I've never been there.

. So naturally, when my FJR goes to the hospital, like the 05/2017 starter relay, the personnel probably review the recall history, and see that it's clean. They had

no way to know that my FJR had ever been to the recall dealer.

. So, this fueled my further research about whether the "ground wire junction" recall had even been done? I read all the details about the recall application at



identification is omitted, or both. The other problem signal, is that I never received any recall letter for this "ground wire junction" problem.

. I did receive the ignition switch replace recall notification, but it came to the previous owner, and was forwarded to me.

So, at this point in time, my FJR is back in the hospital. And I'm pretty certain that the "ground wire junction" recall will be determined as missing. It should be

interesting to finally learn:

. Was this recall completion, and Yamaha billing, just a VIN transposition? Or, is something more sinister at work. I did forget to mention that I was told that my FJR

was initially sold new from the dealership that now reports correcting all the recalls. The dealership where I've never been.

. And, the dealer that I chose to replace the ignition switch - did they actually complete that recall? Did they get paid by Yamaha? Because the way it was explain-

ed to me, there's only one dealership mentioned in the recall history. The dealership I've never visited.

I'll update further when all this shakes out. But, I'm ready to get the bike fixed permanently, and put it behind me.

Thanks.

 

[RossKean]

Irrespective of recalls, your initial symptoms are not consistent with an "S4" spider failure. That may well have been done before you even got the bike. Ground junction failures are accompanied with all sorts of electrical oddities. High beam indicator on but high beam off. Both signal indicators dimly lit. Non-functioning horn, windshield mechanism and glove box solenoid. Somewhere on the forum, there are some photos of the recall harness...

 

[GMAK]

Irrespective of recalls, your initial symptoms are not consistent with an "S4" spider failure. That may well have been done before you even got the bike. Ground junction failures are accompanied with all sorts of electrical oddities. High beam indicator on but high beam off. Both signal indicators dimly lit. Non-functioning horn, windshield mechanism and glove box solenoid. Somewhere on the forum, there are some photos of the recall harness...

Your symptoms are no doubt correct. But, it's almost impossible that the recalls were performed prior to my purchase, which was 02/2009.

I'm just going by memory here, but I recall the "wire lead ground" recall was 2009. Yes, I guess that might have been done some time in 01/2009. But specifically,

my purchase was 02/05/2009. It seems unlikely someone would roll out their bike in January/February to go get a recall applied. Also, I had the ignition switch done

personally. But, the VIN records show the ignition switch performed at the dealer I've never visited, and not the dealer where the switch was done. And then there is the trunk base plate fortification. This fix has never been done because it can be seen. Yet, the VIN records show it also was completed at the dealer I'd never

visited. I don't recall the date of the trunk plate fix, but it was well beyond 2009. I think the ground lead was 2009, and the switch was 2011.

Also, except for the switch notification, I never received any notification for these recalls. The switch notification was forwarded to me from the previous owner.

I just looked, and I've got the switch and the wire lead transposed, I think. The switch was 2009, and the wire lead was 2011. Per my records, I did the switch on

04/01/2009, at another dealer.

As I promised earlier, and since I'm here, and since you're the Commander, I will finalize the saga for those interested:

I checked the FJR out of the hospital around 06/28/2019. The problem, as reported to me, was simply corrosion/faulty connection(s) inside one of the fuse blocks. By corrosion I mean that white powder substance frequently seen/experienced on battery terminals. This stuff will make a battery act very erratic, with

a clean start one moment, and no start the next. In earlier posts here, I mentioned how I was removing/visually checking/re-seating the fuses. But, I thought it

useless, and stopped before completing both fuse blocks.

This is what I was told was the problem, and I guess it mostly coincides with the bikes electrical behavior. The dealer reports that as soon as the problem was

seen, they just cleaned the fuse block, and had to re-seat/reconnect fuse(s) to correct a bad connection. Of course, once this was done, with its new battery,

they said it started right up. So, I'll keep an eye on that problem, because if all that was done was cleaning/repositioning, it will certainly return just like it returned

this time, after almost two years.

Thanks to everyone here for taking the time to read/follow, and offering their contributions/suggestions. I guess if I'm gonna' continue to ride these bikes, I need

to gain more experience at how to research and dispatch problems such as this.

Thank you again.

GMAK.

 

[RossKean]

Keep a close eye on it and good luck. The problem with some electrical issues is that you may THINK thet are fixed but suddenly reappear at a most inopportune moment. I hope they got it and you will be trouble-free. The only significant issues I ever had with my 2007 were electrical in 9 years and 185,000 miles of ownership. Had S4 fixed under recall and dealt with S7? plus another non-spider grounding problem. No problems with fusebox and haven't heard of it being a common failure on any FJR.

 

[GMAK]

Thanks Commander. Well, we know that the ~05/2017 "starter relay replacement" eventually resulted in the return of this "deadstart" condition, after

almost 2 years. If the "corrosion" explanation is accurate, I have no doubt it will return. So, I will stay vigilant. Additionally, I am adopting a battery

replacement interval of 1 year to avoid the vulnerabilities of a "lazy" battery. Just good insurance. I also have a new "Tender", and I'm trying to

extend my rides from short errands to short errands padded with extra mileage for FJR health.

I figure those profile modifications may not entirely solve any recurrence, but should minimize them, and hopefully signal any early problems building.

Thanks,

GMAK