2007 Altitude Surging Problem - Members Wanted

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It's already been proven that the PCIII does not fix the problem ...nor does increasing CO levels which many dealers have tried. If it was purely a mapping problem the PCIII would fix it. Everything is leaning toward a sensor input ...or lack there of while making altitude changes. Until enough people complain and bring light to this thread, etc. dealers are simply going to tackle it like any other problem. The problem is dealers cannot induce altitude changes so your likelihood of having it fixed @ a dealer is not very good. I'm afraid until mother Yamaha gets their **** together and finds the problem and FIX we are all screwed.
You may be right about the sensor, hard to say at this point.

PCIII improves but does not eliminate the problem. PCIII's do not completely replace the factory map. As far as I know they only add more fuel to a fixed default factory open loop map (which is why we have to disconnect the O2 sensor), as a function of rpm, load, and TP. More precisely they change injector pulse width. They do not touch ignition. The factory ECU goes on calculating everything it used to, based on temp, pressure, TPS, etc. etc. so if the base open loop map has a bug in it, the PCIII will just add whatever it thinks it should have added without the bug. PCIII's are a fuel hack period, a good one but still a hack. I have always wondered why someone doesn't make replacement ECU's, or chips, for bikes, completely new maps with spark etc. You can do this for cars. My 95 M3 has a replaceable chip in it, many OBD-1 compliant cars do. OBD-2 cars can reflash ECU memory. Anyway piggy-back hacks like PCIII's allow precisely what may be happening on the FJR to happen. Factory bug gets propagated through.

I suspect a software problem because it is so repeatable and it resets once you turn off the bike and restart it. I also suspect that emissions and mileage hysteria have contributed to borderline code, that some overworked engineer never bothered to check against all combinations of changing air density conditions. Or my favorite speculation is someone got cute with the semi-automatic transmission software on the AE and tried to reuse some of that code on the A model, and f*cked it up.

 
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Just found the following thread:

https://www.fjrforum.com/forum//index.php?showtopic=20826

If Yamaha did eliminate the baro sensor for 06-07, we are totally screwed. See post #6. So maybe it is a sensor problem, but a missing sensor. Arrgghh. Thing is if true Yamaha must know this already, or at least immediatley upon hearing people start to complain about surging at altitude. Classic Dilbert moment. It is a design flaw that cannot be fixed without major hardware and code revisions. Only solution would be go into CYA mode, deny deny deny, and set aside some money for the lawsuits. Cheaper than designing and then replacing engine electronics on all new FJR's.

 
What is the year of your bike, current mileage and city/state in which you live?

2007 FJR1300A, 1800 miles, Orange County, Ca.

Has your bike surged at altitude? If so, have you noticed any pattern as to a particular altitude the surging occurs?

Yes. I have a partiicular route I ride from my house which is near the coast thru the mountains towards Anza ,Ca where the ellevation is appox. 3600 ft. The problem almost always starts at the same point in my route. The surging/hesitation will usually start to become noticable around 1500-2000 ft. In my particular case I have a flat spot/delay just off idle most noticable when accelerating from a stop. The heasitation seems directly related to throttle postion, not RPM/gear/speed.

Have you experienced surging while changing altitude of 1000' or more without shutting motorcycle off?

Yes.

Have you experienced surging riding at a steady elevation? If so, what elevation?

Not that I have noticed. I took a ride to San Diego along the coast and noticed no issues. The total elevation change was probably only a couple of hundred feet.

When you experienced surging did you try turning bike off/on? If so, did it correct the problem?

If I stop and restart the bike ( ignition turned on/off ) the problem disappears. I haven't noticed the problem while dropping in altiitude, only accending.

Have you contacted the dealer regarding the problem? If so, what has the dealer done to help resolve the problem?

Yes. They could not duplicate the problem in their 10 min test ride. They contacted Yamaha Tech support who had heard of the problem and were attemping to duplicate it on their test bikes. So far they nor any of their dealers had been able to find the problem. Yamaha told the dealer service guy that they WOULD NOT cover any diaognostic charges related to this issue as they bellieved there was not a problem with the bike and it was a case of "internet hysteria".

 
Question, is it possible to install a barometer sensor on the Gen II bikes that came equiped on a Gen I bike? I know the fuel rail systems are different but just a question. If the smoothnes map is interchangable between the two seems possible to install the sensor. And as bmwhd mentioned from the thread discussing the barometer sensor not all 06 and 07 bikes are having this issue, and or some such as my 06 had this issue once and the only thing I changed was I set the idle from the stock setting of 900 rpm's to 1000 that another member had done also and the problem has not occured since. And I do not run a PCIII or have not installed any other mapping systems. And as I mentioned earlier seems the 07's are experiencing this more than the 06's. I duno know.....PM. <>< :blink:

 
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My thought is all the 07's have the problem but the owners have not ridden them within the altitude conditions to induce the problem. If this is not the case then it should be a simple problem to fix no?

I know many will disagree with this but there have already been people report "My bike does not have this problem" only to come back here within a week after a trip to report their bike acted up. As I stated already I think time will tell. This problem will only become more popular as people ride their bikes this summer. It's a ticking time bomb.

 
What is the year of your bike, current mileage and city/state in which you live?

2003, 30,000+, Ft. Worth, TX

Has your bike surged at altitude? If so, have you noticed any pattern as to a particular altitude the surging occurs?

No

Have you experienced surging while changing altitude of 1000' or more without shutting motorcycle off?

No

Have you experienced surging riding at a steady elevation? If so, what elevation?

Slight, no-load, 2500-3000 rpm surging when in commuter traffic. Not related to altitude. More related to the EFI hunting for a good map to use when at steady-state-throttle (closed loop) but under little/no load.

When you experienced surging did you try turning bike off/on? If so, did it correct the problem?

no. no.

Have you contacted the dealer regarding the problem? If so, what has the dealer done to help resolve the problem?

no.

 
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Question, is it possible to install a barometer sensor on the Gen II bikes that came equiped on a Gen I bike? I know the fuel rail systems are different but just a question. If the smoothnes map is interchangable between the two seems possible to install the sensor. And as bmwhd mentioned from the thread discussing the barometer sensor not all 06 and 07 bikes are having this issue, and or some such as my 06 had this issue once and the only thing I changed was I set the idle from the stock setting of 900 rpm's to 1000 that another member had done also and the problem has not occured since. And I do not run a PCIII or have not installed any other mapping systems. And as I mentioned earlier seems the 07's are experiencing this more than the 06's. I duno know.....PM. <>< :blink:
Adding a baro sensor to an engine management system that does not have one is a Big Deal. Extra input channel, complete rewrite of entire code, based on hundreds if not thousands of dyno and road test hours. It would be "easier" to rip out all your Gen II electronics and install a Gen I wiring harness and computer. Would be interesting to find out the rational for eliminating it.

 
OK, just returned from a loop from Boulder (5000 ft.) over Trailridge Road (12000 ft.) down to Grand Lake, Winter Park, up over Berthoud Pass, then down to I-70 and back to Boulder. As I said in my earlier post I put a PCIII in after my last experience, and this trip was going to test the hypothesis that the PCIII will eliminate this surging problem.
So in summary, PCIII mitigates the problem I'd say 50%.
I hear ya. Tried to give a heads-up on this back in note #33. You do seem to need to disconnect the O2 sensor if you haven't already. They (Dyno-Jet) make it like a "suggestion", but it really does seem to be needed. Then you need to further enrichen at least the 2% throttle column of their "map" by 3 points each in the 1250 - 3750 rpm range. This may also persist into the 5% throttle range where it may need some (but possibly not as much) enriching as well for those rpms, but so far I've only had one minor "hick-up" at what I'm guessing to have been the stock 5% mapping range, but I haven't been higher than 9300 ft. with it yet.

-----

Certainly I enjoy the scenery. I just prefer mine slightly blurry.

 
OK, just returned from a loop from Boulder (5000 ft.) over Trailridge Road (12000 ft.) down to Grand Lake, Winter Park, up over Berthoud Pass, then down to I-70 and back to Boulder. As I said in my earlier post I put a PCIII in after my last experience, and this trip was going to test the hypothesis that the PCIII will eliminate this surging problem.
So in summary, PCIII mitigates the problem I'd say 50%.
I hear ya. Tried to give a heads-up on this back in note #33. You do seem to need to disconnect the O2 sensor if you haven't already. They (Dyno-Jet) make it like a "suggestion", but it really does seem to be needed. Then you need to further enrichen at least the 2% throttle column of their "map" by 3 points each in the 1250 - 3750 rpm range. This may also persist into the 5% throttle range where it may need some (but possibly not as much) enriching as well for those rpms, but so far I've only had one minor "hick-up" at what I'm guessing to have been the stock 5% mapping range, but I haven't been higher than 9300 ft. with it yet.

-----

Certainly I enjoy the scenery. I just prefer mine slightly blurry.
Yes, I disconnected it. If you don't the stock ECU will just try to defeat the PCIII by leaning out the extra fuel. By the way, I had no idea there was a surging problem before I ordered the PCIII. I thought there was a throttle problem. Then while waiting for the PCIII to arrive, I got the surging problem and read up on it here. I installed the PCIII hoping to mitigate the surging, it did but not completley. I will look into changing the fuel maps if I can't live with this, thanks for the tips.

 
I keep forgetting to mention this. The problem happens when we go up in altitude, so the air is less dense. If the system is taking a reading at start up and then trying to use that when air density drops, the mixture will be too rich, not too lean. So I am not quite sure just adding fuel is the right way to go, though it is clear whatever the standard PCIII map is doing helps.

 
I keep forgetting to mention this. The problem happens when we go up in altitude, so the air is less dense. If the system is taking a reading at start up and then trying to use that when air density drops, the mixture will be too rich, not too lean. So I am not quite sure just adding fuel is the right way to go, though it is clear whatever the standard PCIII map is doing helps.
Yeah, I know. It seems like the problem should be reversed (get richer instead).

If you look at the "stock" PC map (which does help some as you say), you'll see that they have set the bike richer in the 2% and 5% throttle ranges where this "problem" exists. I have gone even a bit richer (additional 3 points) in the 2% range, and it has helped even more. I hesitate to say "eliminated" because I'm still a bit cowardly about it, but definitely better. My guess is that they (Dyno-Jet) have left things still a bit lean in these low ranges, because they don't want CA folks to start failing emmissions with their PC's installed. Definitely wouldn't be a smart business move, eh.

Interestingly, the stock PC map has set most of the higher ranges to a leaner ratio than the "factory" settings. These points settings on the graph by-the-way, are approximately 1 point gives you around a .1 change in the air/fuel ratio.

-----

"Of course I enjoy the scenery. I just prefer mine slightly blurry."

 
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What is the year of your bike, current mileage and city/state in which you live?

2006A, 2k, Victorville, CA

Has your bike surged at altitude? If so, have you noticed any pattern as to a particular altitude the surging occurs?

No issues at ambient where I live (~2500 feet), no issues on the Cajon Pass, (~4500 feet) or or in the mountains above San Bernardino (~5k +)

Have you experienced surging while changing altitude of 1000' or more without shutting motorcycle off?

No

Have you experienced surging riding at a steady elevation? If so, what elevation?

No

When you experienced surging did you try turning bike off/on? If so, did it correct the problem?

N/A

Have you contacted the dealer regarding the problem? If so, what has the dealer done to help resolve the problem?

N/A

My bike is a CA model, which I *think* differs only in the addition of a carbon canister and associated plumbing. I wonder if the carbon cannisters on effected bikes could have been mistakenly plumbed into the vacuum system and induce a problem not exhibited at higher air densities?

 
What is the year of your bike, current mileage and city/state in which you live?2006, 12000 miles, Alfred, NY

Has your bike surged at altitude? If so, have you noticed any pattern as to a particular altitude the surging occurs?

No, have ridden through the Allegany, Adirondack, and Green mountains no problem.

Have you experienced surging while changing altitude of 1000' or more without shutting motorcycle off?

No

Have you experienced surging riding at a steady elevation? If so, what elevation?

No

 
Here's an update of my situation (see post #56 in this topic). I will report just the facts here and will leave my personal opinions out of this public forum for now.

I took the bike in to the dealer on Monday, along with a printout of the first 56 posts in this topic. The Service Manager promised to take a look at both the bike and the posts and would talk to Yamaha. I also called Yamaha customer service - and while the woman I spoke with sounded genuinely concerned, she also mentioned that the best thing for me to to was to take the bike to a dealer and have them take a look at the bike and report my concerns to Yamaha through the proper channels. I asked her take down my name & contact info as well as the VIN of my FJR. I also offered to let Yamaha use my bike for diagnostic purposes, as I work on a few miles from Cypress.

I called the dealer today to get an update. The Service Manager told me he talked with Solv (sp?) - Solv is just a customer service manager, not a product specialist. He also told me that Yamaha's position as of right now is that there is no problem, since not all FJRs are exhibiting this behavior. They did recommend that he perform several sensor diagnostics, which he promised to do. My plan is to take the bike back up Highway 245 this weekend and try to duplicate the problem. If it happens again, I'll take it right back to the dealer.

I do find it interesting that when I went to the NHTSA website to see if there were any reports of problems, there were none for the 2007 FJR1300A, but there were 89 complaints recorded for the 2007 R1 - most having to do with a fuel delivery problem. If you want to read the complaints, go to

https://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/problems...laintsearch.cfm and click on "Search Selected Type" while the "Vehicle" radio button is selected. Then enter the appropriate selections to see reports for the 2007 Yamaha YZFR1. In the last selection pane, check the box to see ALL reports for that vehicle. It seems that we FJR owners are not the only ones with a problem.

 
What is the year of your bike, current mileage and city/state in which you live?

07 FJR1300ABS, 20,000 miles; Monroe, WA

Has your bike surged at altitude? If so, have you noticed any pattern as to a particular altitude the surging occurs?

Yes -- very often. I've experience the problem from 3000ft to 14,110ft.

Have you experienced surging while changing altitude of 1000' or more without shutting motorcycle off?

Yes -- very often

Have you experienced surging riding at a steady elevation? If so, what elevation?

Yes, much milder at const elevation, but at each of these: ~4000ft, ~5000ft, ~6000ft.

When you experienced surging did you try turning bike off/on? If so, did it correct the problem?

Yes, No.

Have you contacted the dealer regarding the problem? If so, what has the dealer done to help resolve the problem?

Yes. The mechanic will test-ride the bike as soon as I can leave it with him for a few days.

I just posted a reply under

techical/mechanical problems > severe stumbling at altitude

about my "experience" on Pikes Peak. Have had numerous other episodes.

 
I'm probably violating protocol here, but I'm going to duplicate a posting I just made in "Sever stumbling at altitude" so that relevant information can be obtained from this thread. I've made a few changes in this re-post.

I've have an 07 FJR1300 since Feb. and have put 20,000 miles on it. I've experienced many, many episodes of stumbling most of them associated with altitude changes.

Recent example:

During the Memorial Day 3-day holiday I rode from Seattle to Pikes Peak. I left work in the Seattle area about 3:00pm and rode (through the night) through WA, OR, ID, UT and entered CO on highway 70 from the west. At Grand Junction, I switched to highway 50 and made my way to Pikes Pike from the west, arriving at the park at about 3:45 CO time. After paying the fee at the gatehouse, I started up the Pikes Peak road.

The FJR didn't want to run under load. The speed limits on that road are as low as 10 to 15mph. I attempted to ride that slowly, but the engine kept dying if I let the rpms drop below about 4000. It would idle normally, and until I started engaging the clutch the engine seemed normal (sound, vibration, etc). But the second a load was applied, the engine bogged down and died. It took me more than 2 hours to go the 19 or so miles from the gatehouse to the summit. I did this by reving the engine to about 3500-4000rpm and slipping the clutch--constantly--to keep the road speed low enough to stay under the speed limits and make the corners. I had to stop, I guess, about 20 times to rest my clutch hand. The engine died about that same number of times. No indication from the instruments anything was abnormal--temp was always showing about 4 to 5 LCD segments. I think the park entrance is on the order of 7000ft; the summit is 14,110ft. Temp, if I remember correctly, usually was in the 50 to 70 range.

When I got to the summit, I had severe arm and leg cramps and a killer headache. I rested for a hour or so before heading down. When I started down, the engine seemed to work normally, that is, it would accept a load at low rpm and not die--but going down Pikes Peak doesn't impose much of a load on the engine.

During the remainder of the trip--up to Rapid City, SD then back to Seattle, WA, on highway 90--there were numerous episodes of engine surging: at constant throttle on essentially level highway, the engine would rev slightly, then stutter.

Other episodes:

This one I can usually reproduce at will, but not always.

I live near Monroe, WA; elevation under 100ft. I frequently ride up to Stevens pass, 55 miles away, elevation 4200ft. On that ride, say a 4100ft elevation gain, while riding up grade the engine often does the surge then stutter thing--at constant throttle going up constant grade, I can't keep the engine speed constant, the ride is very jerky no matter how careful I am to keep the throttle constant. Usually, when I turn around at the summit to head back down, the engine will not take a load below about 4000rpm for several minutes (this is in 1st gear). At constant throttle, say 3000rpm in 2nd gear, mostly coasting down the grade, the engine acts as though it's not getting fuel; then suddenly, at constant throttle, the bike will bolt forward, very abruptly, and engine power will come normally for a while..

I've tried several brands of fuel.

The bike's mechanic, whom I believe to be very good, can't find anything out of spec.

Don't know what's wrong, but at times this bike is genuinely un-fun to ride.

How severe is this problem in my opinion? In all other respects, I think the bike is superb; but this behavior has made me regret buying the bike, and I can not recommend it to new purchasers.

 
Another update on my situation (see posts 56 & 76 in this topic):

Called the dealer again today - asked if he has run any of the tests yet, as I want the bike back for the weekend. He hasn't touched my bike, and claims to be booked well into July - but he'll "get back" to me.

I thought about it for a minute or so, then told him to have the bike ready for me to pick up tomorrow. He's obviously not interested in my problem, so I'll try to find a dealer who is. In the meantime, I will call Yamaha again and ask for a referral but thought I'd ask for one from you all - can anyone recommend a competent service department in the Los Angeles area?

 
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