2007 Altitude Surging Problem - Members Wanted

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What is the year of your bike, current mileage and city/state in which you live?

07 FJR A model, 500 miles, MN

Has your bike surged at altitude? If so, have you noticed any pattern as to a particular altitude the surging occurs?

No

Have you experienced surging while changing altitude of 1000' or more without shutting motorcycle off?

No

Have you experienced surging riding at a steady elevation? If so, what elevation?

No, N/A

When you experienced surging did you try turning bike off/on? If so, did it correct the problem?

N/A

Have you contacted the dealer regarding the problem? If so, what has the dealer done to help resolve the problem?

N/A

 
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For those of you who are listed in the "No Problem" group please send me the last 6 of your VIN? I need this information to help me look for any possible trends.

So far there is no indicated trend. I need more to collect more VIN information for both "Problem" and "No Problem" bikes to see if that's a possibility.

I will be maintaining the list from now on. In an effort to control speculation and rumors I will be sharing only be sharing possible trend and troubleshooting information with Yamaha. I will keep you updated if/when we get a dealer confirmed event.

I will be taking my FJR on a "Surge Rally" this weekend. If it starts surging I will be delivering the bike to Adventure

Motorsports, without shutting it down, so they can ride it and share the experience. It would be nice if Yamaha could supply a portable data logging computer that the dealer could put on the bike. Then I could just ride it until it starts mis-behaving and they would have everything they need to diagnose the issue.

Here is a correction for the current standings:

Experienced surging (40):

Year/State/Username

2006 AZ azsporttour

2006 CA FJRRider

2006 CA Highlander

2006 CA co425

2007 CA Silent

2007 CA CALSI

2007 CA Gary D

2007 CA Superbee

2007 CA dgerharter

2007 CA rgmax

2007 CA Spunkmyer

2007 CO TellurideFJR

2007 CO Medium Al

2007 CO seabiscuit

2007 CO Gator1

2006 FL one more bike

2007 NC millsaps

2007 NC mmonroe

2007 NC JeffAshe

2007 NC sfla02si

2007 NV Keone

2007 OR Farkles

2007 OR Tophog

2007 TN Fjr07

2007 TN TNT

2007 TX ELP JC

2007 UK UK-keith

2006 UT Fjrvfr

2007 WA TruWrecks

2007 WA otubrab

2007 Whichsideup

2007 Wingman

2007 Agirl

2007 Greg97224

2007 JMC

2007 NC Lil Black Sheep

2006 KY Slick001

2006 WA FjrVfr

2007 NC BentAero

2006 IN K-2

Have NOT experienced surging (12):

Year/State/Username

2007 AK PA1195

2006 CA Gary

2007 CA phoneman91

2006 CO BobG

2006 CT rivgar

2007 ID headude

2007 IW okmac

2007 MN Murf

2007 NC bent Aero

2006 NY v65

2006 TX Bmwhd

2006 BobG

 
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You can add mine to the list of affected bikes after taking a few more longer rides.

What is the year of your bike, current mileage and city/state in which you live?

2007, 3,800, Springdale AR

stock exhaust, no CO mods, no PC or other fuel mods.

Has your bike surged at altitude? If so, have you noticed any pattern as to a particular altitude the surging occurs?

I was going uphill on a long grade following another vehicle. When it started I was in 5th gear running about 55 mph around 1500 ft msl. After climbing about halfway up the hill, throttle response seemed sluggish. Opening the throttle further had no immediate affect, then after a short delay, the power came back as suddenly as it had gone (my wife asked if I was trying to throw her off the bike.). It felt to me like the engine was being temporarily starved of fuel. Took about a half mile to find a safe place to pull over. Topped the hill around 3000 ft and pulled over while going down about 2/10 mile later, but the bike appeared to fix itself on the way down. Has done a few times since the first episode under similar conditions.

Conditions the first time: about 20 minutes riding two-up since last shut down, 85-90 deg temps in river valley changing to 75-80 in the Ozarks. Humidity was around 70%. Probably done around 40 miles that morning before the incident with a stop for fuel about 15 miles before the surging incident.

Have you experienced surging while changing altitude of 1000' or more without shutting motorcycle off?

Yes, see above.

Have you experienced surging riding at a steady elevation? If so, what elevation?

No.

When you experienced surging did you try turning bike off/on? If so, did it correct the problem?

Yes and no. I turned the bike off shortly after the problem appeared, but the bike was acting normally when I shut it off. Other times I have experienced surging under similar conditions without shutting off, and surging also disappeared.

Have you contacted the dealer regarding the problem? If so, what has the dealer done to help resolve the problem?

No and nothing. After reading all of the posts where the dealers were told to bump the CO settings I figured it would be a waste of time, especially since the problem has only occurred about 10-15 times.

Has your bike surged at altitude? If so, have you noticed any pattern as to a particular altitude the surging occurs?Surged several times while riding the Blue Ridge Parkway from approx. 1,500 feet to approx. 3,800 feet altitude. Throttle must be locked or only have minimal changes. Downshifting two gears and working the throttle WFO several times caused the ECU to read new settings and corrected the issue. Tested this theory twice more in the same area and verified all the above as valid.
I think this may hold the key, every time this problem has occured on my bike I was riding at steady throttle while climbing, then hesitated/stumbled when more throttle was fed in. The problem for me is not the hesitation itself, but the sudden and somewhat unpredictable return to full power immediately following the hesitation. Hasn't been a big enough problem that I'm willing to leave the bike with a dealer, especially since there does not appear to be a solution as yet.

Is it possible to replace the 2007 ecm with one from a 2006? I only ask this because someone mentioned the they are different part numbers, indicating to me that there were changes made. The sensers appear to be the same for 06/07 models, so it would appear they would be interchangable. Since this particular problem doesn't seem to affect the 06 models nearly as much, it would seem that whatever was changed in the ecm was a step in the wrong direction.

David

 
Suggestion: If for some reason the Yamaha folks can't reproduce the surging issue as described by the owner, may I suggest that whoever owns the bike with the issue offer to ride with a rep on the pillion seat if at all possible if they need to experience the problem real-time...may be of some help to all concerned.
I would agree with this, the problem occurs more often when riding two-up than solo on mine. Might be that I'm a bit smoother on the throttle with someone else aboard. :rolleyes:

David

 
Some more info here. I dropped my new FJR off today for the 600 mile service and noted the altitude surging problem. When I called them about the problem couple of weeks ago, no one at the dealership had heard about it. Well they have heard about it now. I just received a call from the service department rep. They spoke with Yamaha on the matter. Allegedly Yamaha has 12 technicians riding factory bikes trying to duplicate this problem with no success. They are still trying to pass it off as "internet hysteria", though why they say this with 12 techs on it is not clear to me.

Their response to my issue was basically I will have to pay $75/hr for a technician to ride my bike around. If he can duplicate the problem I won't be charged. Before this can be done I have to remove the PCIII and reconnect the O2 sensor. Basically they are still in denial mode. Judging by the level of intelligence of the three ******** "technicians" who have posted here so far ["rev it up more", "it's the octane", and "magnetic tank bag interference"...you f*cking idiots], it will be a long time before anything happens.

However I have no doubt that eventually one of these geniuses will maybe read all the posts here first and then try to duplicate the problem exactly as it has been laid out by numerous people. Or even, gee whiz, I don't know maybe take a customer's bike on the same loop where the customer can reproduce the problem reliably. Duh.

I gotta say, it seriously pisses me off to hear some ***-clown try to tell me this is an imaginary thing I read on the internet. I had the problem first and went to the internet (here actually) to try to find out what it was. And I have had the problem numerous times since and can replicate it.

Anyway let's hope that Yamaha gets this right. Eventually.

 
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One other detail...they pulled the ECU fault codes and nada, zip. So whatever is going on is not registering as a fault. Maybe it is corporate digital myopia that is keeping Yamaha from recognizing that there can be faults that do not register as fault codes.

 
If Yamaha and dealers would think about this for a second. Why in the hell would owners of brand new bikes all get together and collaborate an imaginary problem on their new bike? There are probably lots of new owners out there that don't even know about this forum or problem because they are still in that "Oh I love my new bike" stage and any little hiccup or problem is passed off as being temporary or "normal during break-in". That said, this is no little problem or anomoly. Yamaha/dealers need to understand/realize that this is a MAJOR problem and it won't be long before a crash/death can be contributed to the problem. That's when the real problems start, both regarding repuation and financially (lawsuits). Hopefully it won't come to that but there is no way in hell anything is going to get fixed if they pass this off as "Internet Hysteria". The internet can work both ways ...for you and against you. Yamaha needs to realize the information posted thus far is a bonus for them. We ***** owners have discovered there is a major drivibility/safety problem in their new bikes that apparently wasn't caught during testing/QA. Hmmm. Think a problem like this would ever make it public if there was no Internet? ;)

 
If Yamaha and dealers would think about this for a second. Why in the hell would owners of brand new bikes all get together and collaborate an imaginary problem on their new bike? There are probably lots of new owners out there that don't even know about this forum or problem because they are still in that "Oh I love my new bike" stage and any little hiccup or problem is passed off as being temporary or "normal during break-in". That said, this is no little problem or anomoly. Yamaha/dealers need to understand/realize that this is a MAJOR problem and it won't be long before a crash/death can be contributed to the problem. That's when the real problems start, both regarding repuation and financially (lawsuits). Hopefully it won't come to that but there is no way in hell anything is going to get fixed if they pass this off as "Internet Hysteria". The internet can work both ways ...for you and against you. Yamaha needs to realize the information posted thus far is a bonus for them. We ***** owners have discovered there is a major drivibility/safety problem in their new bikes that apparently wasn't caught during testing/QA. Hmmm. Think a problem like this would ever make it public if there was no Internet? ;)
I agree completely. I told the tech in no uncertain terms this was a safety issue and Yamaha could fix it now or pay $50M later in someone's lawsuit. I precisely described the problems I experienced and told him I felt as if I might have either hit the car in front of me in traffic or dropped the bike on slick surfaces. They've been warned and it sounds like they are devoting resources to it, even while grumbling about delusional owners. Let's see what happens the first time one of those techs gets a stumble/surge. Or stalls the bike right when he needs to get out of the way of an 18 wheeler.

 
<snip>Is it possible to replace the 2007 ecm with one from a 2006? I only ask this because someone mentioned the they are different part numbers, indicating to me that there were changes made.
My friend with a 'stumbling' '07 tried to go down that road -- ordered an '06 ecu (diff. part #) only to receive an '07 (numbered) ecu, the '06 number is superceded.

BTW, he's now of the opinion that the air pressure sensor is the culprit (poor quality control of a critical component when asked to work in harmony with the current system).

'Course, MamaYama says it's .... YOU.....! :unsure:

 
The attitude I got when I filed a warrantee issue with the brake master cylinder on my 06 was if its not happening to a whole group of bikes then the problem doesn't really exist. My problem was also not repeating itself all the time, but from the get go there was a problem and it progressively got worse to a degree. I had the problem confirmed by three different mechanics and the manager and still was told by the manager there was no problem. I had to contact Yamaha myself as the head mechanic said I would get better results that way than through him. Through this board I got armed with info from another dealership on the other side of the country with the same type repairs and still almost had to threaten my manager with the safety issue before things got fixed. I told him that if Yamaha didn't want to repair the bike, I wanted it in writting and a copy would be sent to my attorney, and next of kin. And after 3 months of testing and haggeling it got fixed. This is not right and even though we as the rider of our own bike know its personality better than anyone, these type of safety problems should not be ignored up front as they are by Yamaha. Isn't it suppose to be "Safety First"? Hopefully this will be resolved soon before someone does get injured or worse. PM. <>< :angry:

 
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I think I posted the "event" in another string on this site. I was on my way up 138, the back way up to Crestline CA. It was dark and getting colder as I climbed. I have a PCIII and at that time I was running the stock PCIII map for the FJR. The higher I climbed the colder it got and coming out of some really tight uphill corners the bike hesitated then caught. Higher up it almost stalled a couple of times.

I'm convinced it's a lean condition or a fuel delivery problem associated both with TEMP and ALTITUDE, at least on my bike. The next morning going back down to San Berdoo on Rim of the World when I hit an inversion layer (think 20 degree temp drop) the bike started surging. I had also dropped about 1500 feet in altititude.

I'm now running the hybrid map Smoothness map and may try to take it up to Mount Lemmon this weekend. I'll let you know. Other than the trip to CA I have corrected most of the problems with the fuel delivery/mapping FI system.

AZ

 
If this was simply a "lean" condition it would run about the same at any altitude, and when you shut if off and restart it would have the same issues. It wouldn't clear up for a while like it is now. Turning up the CO settings also wouldn't help in this case. A PCIII would mask the issue, but note cure it.

Think about the fuel map like a big grid that's divided into zones. The zones contain cells. For the bike to run fine after a restart that would indicate that the fuel map is now running in a different zone or cell of the grid from when it was shut off. Shutting it off and clearing the ECU would give it a chance to recalculate where it should be. If the computer is continuing to make adjustments, and it got behind in the math, it would get skewed results. If it continues to use the skewed results it will continue to point to the wrong area of the fuel map, resulting in continuing symptoms. So that means if you reset the ECU it would start the math all over again giving it a chance to make a better guess at the proper fuel map cell. It may be as easy as the ECU mis-calculating the area of the fuel map that it should be using.

Tomorrow I will be riding in the mountains until the problem rears it's ugly head. I'll take it to the dealer, with out shutting it off, and have a tech take it up the pass. I guess my 07 has become Yamaha's test mule.

It's a pity a multi-billion dollar company is requiring customers to do the research to find out could cause a major safety issue, when they could just give a $14,000 bike to a dealer to work with. I guess they're too concerned that it might hurt their profit margin. It would also be much easier if Yamaha would give a few dealers a data logger that could read all the ECU functions. If the bike had problems the data logger would capture the event in real-time.

 
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One simple way to possibly duplicate the problem would be to put a bike on a trailer, start it and let it warm up and idle, then drive the truck/trailer up a couple thousand feet while the bike is idling. I bet it would immediately exhibit the problem at altitude and do so reliably and repeatedly. I think the problem happens when there is elevation change plus low load low rpm operation (high manifold vacumm therefore bad or degrading ambient pressure estimate).

 
What is the year of your bike, current mileage and city/state in which you live?
2007 FJR1300 A, 1577 miles, Salem, Oregon

Has your bike surged at altitude? If so, have you noticed any pattern as to a particular altitude the surging occurs?

YES. 30+ times on a recent 4 day trip riding anywhere from 1000' to 6500'. Any altitude above 1000' but random above 1000'.

Have you experienced surging while changing altitude of 1000' or more without shutting motorcycle off?

YES. Most of the time when my bike surged it was after riding the bike for 1-2 hours continuously then ascending in altitude.

Have you experienced surging riding at a steady elevation? If so, what elevation?

I don't think so. Problem is I haven't ridden the bike at a consistently high elevation yet for any period of time. Thus far I have always gone up passes then directly down the other side.

When you experienced surging did you try turning bike off/on? If so, did it correct the problem?

Yes, corrects problem only temporarily but bike will start surging again only after a few minutes ...and sometimes it didn't help at all.

Have you contacted the dealer regarding the problem? If so, what has the dealer done to help resolve the problem?

Yes, I have contacted Yamaha Customer Support, talked Cypress, CA and local dealer. Dealer wants bike to diagnose but result is dealer putting several hundred miles on bike in attempt to reproduce problem. There is no way for a dealer to induce altitude changes in the shop. I am not comfortable handing my bike over as a guinea pig at this point. I asked both the dealer and Yamaha directly to anti-up a new 2007 for testing as I'm sure they all, or at least the majority have the surging problem. Their response was "That wouldn't be fair to the dealer". Apparently it is to the consumer.

You can somewhat reproduce the altitude in the shpo by connecting a mighty vac pump to the atmospheric pressure sensor and fooling the ecu to thinking the bike is at altitude. This however does not duplicate the actual conditions. It may help with diagnostics. I beleive the problem derrives from the atmospheric air pressure sensor, or the fuel map is too lean. The second scenerio can be remidied by changing the CO settings. If you can duplicate the problem, you should enter diagnostic mode and record the readings of the atmospheric air pressure sensor and intake air pressure sensors (readings in mm of Hg) then compare the readings to what you know to be true readings i.e. goto the weather channels website and get the current readings (usually in in Hg). Also, if you shut the bike off and restart, there is a breif period where the ecu does not use the information it receives from the O2 sensor, which could explain why it runs better after restarts. If that is the case, the fuel maps air/fuel ratio is too lean under closed loop operation which would require and updated ECU to solve. Hope this helps!

 
What is the status of the two bikes that were handed over to the dealer in WA?
No results yet. The dealer couldn't make any progress. I'm about to head out and prove it happens today.

 
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What is the year of your bike, current mileage and city/state in which you live?
2007 FJR1300 A, 1577 miles, Salem, Oregon

Has your bike surged at altitude? If so, have you noticed any pattern as to a particular altitude the surging occurs?

YES. 30+ times on a recent 4 day trip riding anywhere from 1000' to 6500'. Any altitude above 1000' but random above 1000'.

Have you experienced surging while changing altitude of 1000' or more without shutting motorcycle off?

YES. Most of the time when my bike surged it was after riding the bike for 1-2 hours continuously then ascending in altitude.

Have you experienced surging riding at a steady elevation? If so, what elevation?

I don't think so. Problem is I haven't ridden the bike at a consistently high elevation yet for any period of time. Thus far I have always gone up passes then directly down the other side.

When you experienced surging did you try turning bike off/on? If so, did it correct the problem?

Yes, corrects problem only temporarily but bike will start surging again only after a few minutes ...and sometimes it didn't help at all.

Have you contacted the dealer regarding the problem? If so, what has the dealer done to help resolve the problem?

Yes, I have contacted Yamaha Customer Support, talked Cypress, CA and local dealer. Dealer wants bike to diagnose but result is dealer putting several hundred miles on bike in attempt to reproduce problem. There is no way for a dealer to induce altitude changes in the shop. I am not comfortable handing my bike over as a guinea pig at this point. I asked both the dealer and Yamaha directly to anti-up a new 2007 for testing as I'm sure they all, or at least the majority have the surging problem. Their response was "That wouldn't be fair to the dealer". Apparently it is to the consumer.

You can somewhat reproduce the altitude in the shpo by connecting a mighty vac pump to the atmospheric pressure sensor and fooling the ecu to thinking the bike is at altitude. This however does not duplicate the actual conditions. It may help with diagnostics. I beleive the problem derrives from the atmospheric air pressure sensor, or the fuel map is too lean. The second scenerio can be remidied by changing the CO settings. If you can duplicate the problem, you should enter diagnostic mode and record the readings of the atmospheric air pressure sensor and intake air pressure sensors (readings in mm of Hg) then compare the readings to what you know to be true readings i.e. goto the weather channels website and get the current readings (usually in in Hg). Also, if you shut the bike off and restart, there is a breif period where the ecu does not use the information it receives from the O2 sensor, which could explain why it runs better after restarts. If that is the case, the fuel maps air/fuel ratio is too lean under closed loop operation which would require and updated ECU to solve. Hope this helps!
If the problem arises when you go up in altitude, it is not too lean, if anything it is too rich. Also the O2 sensor has nothing or very little to do with it, I have a PCIII with O2 sensor disconnected and it still does it. Fooling the sensor into thinking it is at altitude will not replicate the problem. The problem is (or may be) replicated when the sensor thinks you are at one level but you are actually at 1500 feet higher. So you'd need to pressurize the senosr at start up and keep it that way, not subject it to a vacuum. Also this really wouldn't work anyway because the sensor is used measures intake manifold pressure (vacuum) and uses it to compute fuel. The atmospheric sensor has been eliminated in Gen II bikes (or so we have been told). The bike needs to be started at one altitude, kept running while air intake P ambient drops.

I suspect the system now estimates some quantity (like ambient P) that was previously directly measured, and the estimate gets confused under certain conditions.

 
For those of you who are listed in the "No Problem" group please send me the last 6 of your VIN? I need this information to help me look for any possible trends.
So far there is no indicated trend. I need more to collect more VIN information for both "Problem" and "No Problem" bikes to see if that's a possibility.

I will be maintaining the list from now on. In an effort to control speculation and rumors I will be sharing only be sharing possible trend and troubleshooting information with Yamaha. I will keep you updated if/when we get a dealer confirmed event.

I will be taking my FJR on a "Surge Rally" this weekend. If it starts surging I will be delivering the bike to Adventure

Motorsports, without shutting it down, so they can ride it and share the experience. It would be nice if Yamaha could supply a portable data logging computer that the dealer could put on the bike. Then I could just ride it until it starts mis-behaving and they would have everything they need to diagnose the issue.

Here is a correction for the current standings:

Experienced surging (35):

Year/State/Username

2006 AZ azsporttour

2006 CA FJRRider

2006 CA Highlander

2006 CA co425

2007 CA Silent

2007 CA CALSI

2007 CA Gary D

2007 CA Superbee

2007 CA dgerharter

2007 CA rgmax

2007 CA Spunkmyer

2007 CO TellurideFJR

2007 CO Medium Al

2007 CO seabiscuit

2007 CO Gator1

2006 FL one more bike

2007 NC millsaps

2007 NC mmonroe

2007 NC JeffAshe

2007 NC sfla02si

2007 NV Keone

2007 OR Farkles

2007 OR Tophog

2007 TN Fjr07

2007 TN TNT

2007 TX ELP JC

2007 UK UK-keith

2006 UT Fjrvfr

2007 WA TruWrecks

2007 WA otubrab

2007 Whichsideup

2007 Wingman

2007 Agirl

2007 Greg97224

2007 JMC

Have NOT experienced surging (11):

Year/State/Username

2007 AK PA1195

2006 CA Gary

2007 CA phoneman91

2006 CO BobG

2006 CT rivgar

2007 ID headude

2007 IW okmac

2007 MN Murf

2007 NC bent Aero

2006 NY v65

2006 TX Bmwhd


Hmmm..... I aked that we be added to the list because we have surging issues and we were added to the list on post #102.

Looking at this list, we were removed. Why??? :huh: :confusedsmiley:

 
Add me to the problem list, I suppose, it just happened to me one time last week in the mountains.

I have PC3 installed, O2 disconnected.

What is the year of your bike, current mileage and city/state in which you live?

2006, 6,000 miles, Benton, KY

Has your bike surged at altitude? If so, have you noticed any pattern as to a particular altitude the surging occurs?

Yes, one time on trip through the mountains, I live in relative flat grounds so no pattern.

Have you experienced surging while changing altitude of 1000' or more without shutting motorcycle off?

Yes, Had rode all week through Deals Gap, Smokies, without problems, but going up to Clingmans Dome, at around 6400 feet it just acted like I was running out of fuel for a few seconds (5-10 secs?)

Have you experienced surging riding at a steady elevation? If so, what elevation?

NO

When you experienced surging did you try turning bike off/on? If so, did it correct the problem?

NO, thought it was going to die, but rode it out and it striaightened itself out.

Have you contacted the dealer regarding the problem? If so, what has the dealer done to help resolve the problem?

NO

 
Hmmm..... I aked that we be added to the list because we have surging issues and we were added to the list on post #102.
Looking at this list, we were removed. Why??? :huh: :confusedsmiley:

Fixed. Can you PM me your VIN?

Thanks.

 
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