2007 Altitude Surging Problem - Members Wanted

[TruWrecks]

I took my FJR out for a long ride through the mountains. I started out at 158ft elevation, and rode to 4200ft. I went over two mountain passes. First one was 4000ft. No problems. I rode down the other side to about 2500ft headed for the next pass. When I started climbing up the next pass the bike started loosing speed. When I added more throttle, nothing. I had to add almost 20% to get any response, and it gave me all 20% in one shot. Bingo.

As I headed back to Monroe the bike was acting like it was stuck at a higher altitude. The engine felt like it was running REALLY LEAN. I could feel the bike twitch and stumble at when I got back down to ~500ft. The longer I ran it, the worse it rode.

I rode back to Adventure to give them the bike. By the time I got back to Monroe I had put 280 miles on the bike. I stopped for fuel along the way. I left the bike running and had Chris take it out for a ride. He returned a few minutes later and pulled directly into the shop. I saw him putting a sniffer up the tailpipe. My FJR was just too violated!

Chris said he did notice that it wasn't running quite right. He made a few adjustments that he want to keep anonymous so I don't expect different results.

By the time I got home I had 308 new miles. I had good weather, and great scenery. Not a bad way to test ride. I will be putting more miles on the FJR on Monday. I'll let Chris know the results on Tuesday.

 

[tophog]

.

 

[ELP_JC]

Back from vacation. And time to face if I have a real problem with the surging or not. Will take the FJR for its first mountain trip either on Tuesday or Wednesday.

Since my bike hesitates when blipping the throttle hot or cold, I know the darn engine is running too lean, so will have to bump the CO levels before heading up there. Will start with 4, and continue up to 7, and stop when engine doesn't hesitate while blipping the throttle.

By the way, did some reading and both the FJR and FZ1 are 'world' bikes, which means they're tuned with the most stringent emissions, which are Euro3 (tighter than even CA). That means overly lean conditions to begin with, PLUS completely shutting off injectors on decel. The latter is responsible for the jerky off/on throttle transitions, and it WON'T go away gentlemen. Since I was used to my finicky BMW, it won't be much of a problem for me, as long as I don't get the mentioned stumbling or surging associated with mountain riding, which is what I use the bike for. Just wanted to point out the realities of our bikes. We can probably eliminate the surging bumping the CO levels, as well as minimizing the abrupt transitions, but they won't be eliminated without allowing injectors to squirt idle fuel on decel. Later gang.

JC

 

[TruWrecks]

I'm not focusing on what they may do to it. I'm focusing on how it rides.

My testing is very straight forward. I ride up and down the mountains and check for throttle responsiveness as I go. I occasionally roll on more throttle slowly to see how long it takes the FJR to respond, then I back it off and try it again to see if it's repeatable.

This isn't a great sample, but it does show pretty severe lag. The audio isn't very good (the engine is quiet so you'll need pretty high volume to hear it). You can hear the engine RPM suddenly increase after I turn the throttle a ways. So tell me how much throttle movement you see before you hear the engine speed increase. BTW this is a 12MB video file.

My FJR throttle hand

 

[un4gvn]

What is the year of your bike, current mileage and city/state in which you live?
2007 FJR1300 A, 1577 miles, Salem, Oregon

Has your bike surged at altitude? If so, have you noticed any pattern as to a particular altitude the surging occurs?

YES. 30+ times on a recent 4 day trip riding anywhere from 1000' to 6500'. Any altitude above 1000' but random above 1000'.

Have you experienced surging while changing altitude of 1000' or more without shutting motorcycle off?

YES. Most of the time when my bike surged it was after riding the bike for 1-2 hours continuously then ascending in altitude.

Have you experienced surging riding at a steady elevation? If so, what elevation?

I don't think so. Problem is I haven't ridden the bike at a consistently high elevation yet for any period of time. Thus far I have always gone up passes then directly down the other side.

When you experienced surging did you try turning bike off/on? If so, did it correct the problem?

Yes, corrects problem only temporarily but bike will start surging again only after a few minutes ...and sometimes it didn't help at all.

Have you contacted the dealer regarding the problem? If so, what has the dealer done to help resolve the problem?

Yes, I have contacted Yamaha Customer Support, talked Cypress, CA and local dealer. Dealer wants bike to diagnose but result is dealer putting several hundred miles on bike in attempt to reproduce problem. There is no way for a dealer to induce altitude changes in the shop. I am not comfortable handing my bike over as a guinea pig at this point. I asked both the dealer and Yamaha directly to anti-up a new 2007 for testing as I'm sure they all, or at least the majority have the surging problem. Their response was "That wouldn't be fair to the dealer". Apparently it is to the consumer.

You can somewhat reproduce the altitude in the shpo by connecting a mighty vac pump to the atmospheric pressure sensor and fooling the ecu to thinking the bike is at altitude. This however does not duplicate the actual conditions. It may help with diagnostics. I beleive the problem derrives from the atmospheric air pressure sensor, or the fuel map is too lean. The second scenerio can be remidied by changing the CO settings. If you can duplicate the problem, you should enter diagnostic mode and record the readings of the atmospheric air pressure sensor and intake air pressure sensors (readings in mm of Hg) then compare the readings to what you know to be true readings i.e. goto the weather channels website and get the current readings (usually in in Hg). Also, if you shut the bike off and restart, there is a breif period where the ecu does not use the information it receives from the O2 sensor, which could explain why it runs better after restarts. If that is the case, the fuel maps air/fuel ratio is too lean under closed loop operation which would require and updated ECU to solve. Hope this helps!

If the problem arises when you go up in altitude, it is not too lean, if anything it is too rich. Also the O2 sensor has nothing or very little to do with it, I have a PCIII with O2 sensor disconnected and it still does it. Fooling the sensor into thinking it is at altitude will not replicate the problem. The problem is (or may be) replicated when the sensor thinks you are at one level but you are actually at 1500 feet higher. So you'd need to pressurize the senosr at start up and keep it that way, not subject it to a vacuum. Also this really wouldn't work anyway because the sensor is used measures intake manifold pressure (vacuum) and uses it to compute fuel. The atmospheric sensor has been eliminated in Gen II bikes (or so we have been told). The bike needs to be started at one altitude, kept running while air intake P ambient drops.

I suspect the system now estimates some quantity (like ambient P) that was previously directly measured, and the estimate gets confused under certain conditions.

The atmospheric pressure sensor has not been eliminated in gen II bikes, it is item#20 on page 7-1 of your service manual. Yamaha has in fact not eliminated it on any model but instead uses a combination sensor on bikes such as the xvs1300, yfm700, and i beleive the xv1900. The combination sensor uses the changes in pressure in the intake tract as reference to get both intake and atmospheric pressure readings. When the intake valves open, the pressure in the intake drops, and when the valve closes the pressure rises. Therefore it can use the high and low readings of the sensors fluctuation to get the information needed. Furthermore, the sensor also uses the timing of the pressure changes in the sensor to determine when the intake valves open giving it camshaft position information as well. I'm not sure if you guys really care for this information though, since the FJR does in fact NOT use one of these sensors.

I am not familiar with the problems decribed in this thread as it has not happened to mine, which has been anywhere from sea level to 12,000ft. I understand that if you can take a carburated bike that is jetted for sea level to higher elevation, it will in fact run rich. However fuel injected bikes compensate for this via the above mentioned sensors. So, if you take a bike that is FI and mapped lean to begin with (admit it they all are due to EPA standards) then take it to elevation, the map is still just a lean as before. It may also be that with less air density which causes HP losses the problem is magnified.

The only thing I have experienced on mine was a strech of road between Gillette WY and Spearfish SD when my FJR seemed sluggish and had a slighy misfire, but I stopped and filled the tank and the problems went away. So I brushed it off as bad gas.

 

[TruWrecks]

un4gvn,

If it was just a lean condition, why would my bike continue to run poorly even after I return to near sea level elevations? Then it clears up after I shut the bike down. Sounds like a fuel mapping issue to me. It's like the bike is calculating fuel for elevations that are 1,500ft, or higher, than the bike actually is.

"Oh, if I only had a way to data-log the bike's ECU activity while I ride!" I figure if I say that enough Yamaha might catch on.

 

[ELP_JC]

The atmospheric pressure sensor has not been eliminated in gen II bikes, it is item#20 on page 7-1 of your service manual. Yamaha has in fact not eliminated it on any model but instead uses a combination sensor on bikes such as the xvs1300, yfm700, and i beleive the xv1900.

Of course we care; that's great information. I don't have a service manual yet, but intend to buy one soon.

So our bike is the 'xvs1300', I assume?

Now to my question: is this 'combination' sensor supposed to be a good thing (doubt it), or a cost cutting measure? Never heard of it.

Truewrecks, the way you mentioned your testing is a very good idea; I plan to do exactly that. We need to know if besides surging, our engine is responding the way it should. I'm also anxious to see how it feels in the twisties up there. Seems to me this bike will have to be ridden in the twisties at the 'pace', rather than like a sportbike, with late brake maneuvers, avoiding having the throttle closed when entering the curve. Will test the bike in all situations to fully evaluate the throttle. I also predict the off/on throttle transition to be more abrupt the higher the revs; we'll see about that as well. The good news is the FJR has plenty of torque so we don't really have to be 'up there' like a 600 bike. Take care.

JC

 

[TruWrecks]

We need to know if besides surging, our engine is responding the way it should. I'm also anxious to see how it feels in the twisties up there.

The problem I found in the twisties is when the throttle is very latent and I roll on more fuel as I pass the apex. No increase in fuel until I add about 20% more, then I get that amount all at once. There is no progression. It starts to act like an on/off switch around 2800-4500 RPMs. I'm not talking railing the corners. I'm just talking about a relaxed or slightly upbeat pace. When the fuel is lacking, the bike is diving into the corner more than I intend it too. When the fuel finally responds I'm too far through the apex. The burst of throttle has pushed the bike wide on a few scary occasions. I have been pushed off the road one time because of slippery road conditions and stopped in the loose snow. Thank God I didn't wash out the rear wheel in front of the camper that was tailgating me! That thing would have never stopped in time. Mt. Hood still had plenty of snow in April when I rode HWY 26 to Warm Springs.

I have not noticed any surging when I push it hard. By hard I talking about doubling or more of the "suggested" corner speed signs. The point when bits of rubber are coming off the tires. I know it works well in that area of the fuel map, but let's be serious hear. The FJR is NOT an R1. Riding it like it is can cause a much worse outcome than throttle latency issue I'm experiencing.

 

[un4gvn]

The atmospheric pressure sensor has not been eliminated in gen II bikes, it is item#20 on page 7-1 of your service manual. Yamaha has in fact not eliminated it on any model but instead uses a combination sensor on bikes such as the xvs1300, yfm700, and i beleive the xv1900.

Of course we care; that's great information. I don't have a service manual yet, but intend to buy one soon.

So our bike is the 'xvs1300', I assume?

Now to my question: is this 'combination' sensor supposed to be a good thing (doubt it), or a cost cutting measure? Never heard of it.

Truewrecks, the way you mentioned your testing is a very good idea; I plan to do exactly that. We need to know if besides surging, our engine is responding the way it should. I'm also anxious to see how it feels in the twisties up there. Seems to me this bike will have to be ridden in the twisties at the 'pace', rather than like a sportbike, with late brake maneuvers, avoiding having the throttle closed when entering the curve. Will test the bike in all situations to fully evaluate the throttle. I also predict the off/on throttle transition to be more abrupt the higher the revs; we'll see about that as well. The good news is the FJR has plenty of torque so we don't really have to be 'up there' like a 600 bike. Take care.

JC

No, the XVS1300 is a V-star 1300. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[un4gvn]

un4gvn,
If it was just a lean condition, why would my bike continue to run poorly even after I return to near sea level elevations? Then it clears up after I shut the bike down. Sounds like a fuel mapping issue to me. It's like the bike is calculating fuel for elevations that are 1,500ft, or higher, than the bike actually is.

"Oh, if I only had a way to data-log the bike's ECU activity while I ride!" I figure if I say that enough Yamaha might catch on.

I wasn't trying to say that this is for a fact the problem, I was merely suggesting a few things that make sense to me that could be culprits. Since My bike has not presented these symptoms (30,000+ miles 2006A model) I am just speculating. I really do wish you could log data on this model, I think it may be coming in the next few years and you already have these capabilities with some of the other manufacurers. I am trying to figure out why it only affects some bikes and not others when they all have the same ECU. If it were as simple as a poor or incorrect fuel map, then all genII bikes would do it. Since they ALL have the same mapping. I personally think the problem lies somewhere in the sensor data that the ECU receives...

 

[PA1195]

To maintain the thread, let's hope that Yamaha can indentify and solve the surging problem soon.

As for the atmospheric pressure sensor that was on the GENI bikes...it is gone on the GENII bikes and only the intake air pressure sensor remains...the Item #20 un4gvn refers to in his helpful post (quote here: "The atmospheric pressure sensor has not been eliminated in gen II bikes, it is item#20 on page 7-1 of your service manual. Yamaha has in fact not eliminated it on any model but instead uses a combination sensor on bikes such as the xvs1300, yfm700, and i beleive the xv1900. The combination sensor uses the changes in pressure in the intake tract as reference to get both intake and atmospheric pressure readings") is in fact from a parts diagram in the earlier GENI Service Manual and does not refer to GENII bikes...the current GENII Manual LIT-11616-19-83 now only lists the intake pressure sensor in Fig. 1-2,3 and 8-205...the separate atmospheric sensor is now gone for some reason...this isn't worth quibbling over, however.

The intake air pressure sensor and atmospheric pressure sensor functions are described for GENI bikes in the GENI manual p. 1-13...the intake pressure sensor indirectly measures intake air volume (see Manual for complete description)...while the atmospheric pressure sensor helps compensate for air density caused by changes in atmospheric pressure (particularly at high altitudes)...my summary...and those models appear to be free of the recent driveability problems on GENII models.

The GENII Manual (pp. 1-2,3) outlines the current FI system and only says that it uses "the engine operating conditions and the atmospheric temperature" to determine the "optimum air-fuel ratio."...no direct pressure data is provided for ambient air pressure/altitude to fine tune the FI output as on GENI bikes described above, in my opinion...the intake pressure sensor outputs only a variable voltage relative to temperature-compensated intake air pressure downstream of the throttle plates according to their diagrams, similar to the vacuum taps we attach our manometers to in order to calibrate the throttle bodies...why Yamaha made that change and how well it works compared to the GENI setup remains the question...un4gvn is correct in that some newer Yamaha bikes use the same system...my XV19 Roadliner Service Manual (bike's gone) shows the same system installed there as on our FJR13AV© and shows no separate air presure sensor...apparently Yamaha has figured a way around it to get the engine to run up and down hills to their satisfaction.

The question I'd like ask the Yamaha reps testing my FJR for surging problems would be:

(1) Exactly how, and more importantly, how well, does the current FI/ECU system compensate for marked changes in altitude and ambient air temperature, that appears to affect driveability and cause surging for some, compared to the GENI setup?...try to get an answer, withhold food and drinks, etc.,

(2) Does the data output from the O2 Sensor show any lean/rich variation that corresponds to the surging issues?...there are supposed to be error codes developed when the O2 data goes outside of a set range (14.7:1 +-???) in closed-loop operation according the the SManual, and that could be easily measured with a multi-meter and computer data logger as un4gvn has suggested, and should be stored by the bike's error codes if it does...the ECU may correct too quickly to measure that, however...if not and the A/F ratio is stable, then the surging may not be an A/F mixture-related issue after all but some other problem due to ignition timing or ???...the voltage output from the intake air pressure sensor should also be monitored real time to see if any weird output values correspond with the problems...maybe someone can respond who has some better answers,

(3) Does the bike stumble/hesitate/surge during forced open-loop operation (like when the O2 sensor or intake pressure sensor are disconnected) when running on the standby fixed ECU map?...any owner could determine that by unplugging one or both sensors...some with PCIII's say they still have the problem with the O2 disconnected so that may have been already answered, at least for the O2 sensor disconnect.

Only questions here for now and no easy answers but it's an interesting thread...if Yamaha can't duplicate or denies the problem then what?...take a rep along and demonstrate it, or sell the problem with the scooter and move on to a better ride.

Gary in Fairbanks

 

[TruWrecks]

I'm still leaning toward an ECU calculation issue. Especially when you can get the problem to go away by power cycling the ECU.

 

[PA1195]

I'm still leaning toward an ECU calculation issue. Especially when you can get the problem to go away by power cycling the ECU.

I agree...stopping and restarting reloads the correct ambient temp/intake pressure data (in an un-running mode), resets the TBS to a "0" throttle baseline value, and lets the ECU start all over again, but still with stored learned data...might be worthwhile to un-power the Beast's ECU for a few minutes and then let it re-learn...mine has only done one brief throttle open-low power hesitation-then full power once after a long ride but we just don't have hills like some folks do... hopefully we'll hear more from Yama's Tech folks soon and the trouble bikes will get a fix.

Gary in Fairbanks

 

[ELP_JC]

It's obvous Yamaha thought the closed-loop operation on GenII bikes could replace the baro sensor, but thinking about it, I bet that's why the surging is happening. While changing altitude, the O2 sensor is not fast enough to smoothly keep things optimally, so it adds fuel, cutting fuel, etc., creating the surging. Surging is also a sign of too lean conditions, so bumping CO levels should alleviate that, although it seems not related at all. Now that we know FOR SURE there's no baro sensor, I'd like to get input from folks having the problem on CO changes. Have you guys bumped it to +7? How about more than that? Unfortunately, adding a baro sensor would be a major recall for Yamaha, and I don't see them doing that AT ALL. They'd probably 'update' the FJR for '08, and leave us GenII in the dark.

I'll go to the mountains this week, and see what problem (if any) I have in my hands.

I just did the CO bump to +7 today (53 miles), and did the throttle relax at 0 miles, while changing the panels at the dealer. By the way, I had 5,18,18,21 stock. Take care.

JC

 

[tophog]

.

 

[TruWrecks]

I'm heading up to Mt. Baker today for a ride. I'll give the an "adjusted" ride report when I return tonight. That should give me a really good idea if the lower AFR does any good.

Later.

 

[ELP_JC]

Perhaps Yamaha should equip the bikes with a rear tether for a weather balloon Seriously, playing with the CO settings on my bike had zero effect on the problem. I tried both +4 and +7 off/on during a 3 day trip when the bike acted up more times then I could count (30+ ) Your mileage/altitude may vary

Hey buddy, why don't you try higher than +7 just to see how it reacts? Since you're going to sell your bike, why not play with it?? Supposedly +7 still meets CA emissions, so +10 shouldn't hurt anything, especially for a few dozen miles. Cats operate properly even beyond stoichiometric ratios (cold engines run much richer than that), as long as mixtures are not overly rich.

I took my bike for a ride, and noticed better 'blipping' characteristics, but still hesitates a bit, just like I read. But I noticed engine was down to 4 bars, even though it was hotter than previous ride, where it only went down to 5. I'll leave it alone there. Noticed a bit of surging going up the local mountain (1K' elevation change), but nothing major; engine still responded to throttle. Can't wait to take it to the mountains for its final test. Take care.

JC

 

[TruWrecks]

Well I went up the mountain today. Still having issues with throttle latency when I rode to just under 3,000 ft. The adjustments make riding at slower speed more manageable, but it didn't do much to help with the lack of throttle response. It did cause the bike to lunge slightly harder when it acts up. I still had fun in the mountains though. If only I could test ride motorcycles for a living.

 

[UK-keith]

Received a letter from Yamaha UK yesterday acknowledging receipt of my letter about the issue.

The final paragraph stated that Yamaha Europe were just about to start testing for the problem in appropriate location(s) in Europe.

I can't believe they are testing just for me so maybe there are more Europeans with similar issues.

If they do test at least we now have a two way attack from both sides of the Atlantic.

 

[otubrab]

RE the 07 FJR1300 surge investigation at Adventure Motorsports last week:

Unfortunately, we were unable to reproduce any of the reported surge effects while working with the service manager at Adventure and the Yamaha service representative.

Here are the particulars (though I’m not sure any of it is value added):

TruWrecks left his bike with Adventure Tuesday through Friday I believe; I dropped mine off Tuesday and they still have it.

Both the Yamaha Rep and the service manager wanted to follow a disciplined approach of 1) reproduce the symptoms on a stock customer bike, 2) isolate the problem, 3) diagnose, and 4) correction. The Rep had a package of instruments and test parts shipped in for the investigation; I don’t know much about it, but it did contain and barometric sensor which could be added to the bike(s). The strategy was to reproduce the symptoms, then add the instruments/parts and take data. We never got that far.

Wednesday’s results I’ve already posted (#112).

Thursday, the service manager and the Yamaha service rep. took both bikes up to the summit of Stevens Pass in the morning, and, again, could not induce a failure. They called me at work and asked me to come in. I did.

According to them, TruWrecks had reported the surging to be worse with weight in the topcase. We loaded an estimated 60lbs of engine parts in his topcase, and headed for the summit, the Yamaha rep on TruWreck’s bike, and I on mine. All the way up, the Rep tried various throttle manipulations—abruptly rolling on power, gradually rolling on, rolling on hard in turns, abruptly cutting, etc—and I rode a little more aggressively than I usually do, thinking that a quick atmospheric pressure change would enhance our chances. After reaching the summit without inducing any symptoms, we stopped and discussed the issue. The Rep asked me to call the shots. All I could think of was to try it again from the east side (less construction), and so we did, again, with negative results. At the summit, he notified me that he was out of time and had to head back. He could see I was exasperated, and assured me that “this was certainly not the end of it,” and that “sooner or later they’d get their hands on bike while it was exhibiting symptoms.”

I don’t know that anything was done Friday.

Saturday, I borrowed my bike back and made several runs at the summit.

1st run : Monroe (55ft msl) to Stevens Pass summit (4061ft msl) at steady 60mph.

2nd run: decsend from summit to Deception Falls rest area (1800ft msl) and return to summit at steady 60mph

3rd run: same as 2nd.

4th run: same again.

5th run : descend from summit to Skykomish (900ft msl) turn bike off for 20min, return to summit at steady 60mph.

On both the 1st and the 5th runs, the bike reproduced the symptoms: 1) surging during ascent, and 2) inability to load engine below about 4000rpm at the summit. The 2nd, 3rd, and 4th runs, the bike ran well with no symptoms. I took the following notes on the surging:

1st run:

60mph steady ascent, locked throttle, speed drops to 53mph, the surges back to 60mph

60mph steady ascent, “ “ , “ “ “ 55mph, “ “ “ “ 60mph

60mph steady ascent, “ “ , “ “ “ 42mph, “ “ “ “ 60mph

60mph steady ascent, “ “ , “ “ “ 48mph, “ “ “ “ 60mph

(many more entries, these are representative).

At summit:

(all of this is in first gear)

Engine will not accept load on level ground at 1500rpm; engage clutch, engine dies.

Engine “ “ “ “ “ “ “ 2000rpm; “ “ “ “

Engine “ “ “ “ “ “ “ 3000rpm; “ “ “ “

Rev to about 4500rpm, slowly engage clutch trying to enter traffic, engine bogs down, going about 15mph downhill, must go to shoulder to let traffic past, bike bogs and surges abruptly for about 300 yards, speed picks up to about 25mph, suddenly full power, go to 2nd gear, at 45mph bike bogs, surges to full power, after about 4 miles downhill bike seems normal again.

The summit temp on Thurs was in the mid 70s; Saturday it was upper 50s to low 60s. The previous Saturday when I’d reproduced the symptoms, summit temp as 43, conditions: raining.

Extraneous data:

They pulled 3 error codes from my bike, none from TruWrecks. Mine were 19, 30, and 31.

30 is a rolloever cutout, which I assume occurred on Pikes Peak (see previous post) when I as squirting up the mountain in the mud, trying to keep the bike speed low, while needing to keep the engine speed high. I laid the bike in the mud a couple of times to keep from going over the edge. Codes had not been reset since then.

31 is a marginal oxy sensor, I believe.

19 is a mystery. I was told the only way to trigger it was cut power the ecu, then turn on the key. I never did that.

To this point, we've put more than 800miles on my bike investigating this, I believe more than 300 on TruWrecks.

Current plan:

My bike is still with Adventure. Chris wants to wait for a cooler day, then try Stevens Pass again. He’s also mentioned the possibility of rigging up a video/audio recorder to record symptoms. If they can get that arranged, I'll wire-up and ride up to Sunrise(6400ft msl) on the east side of Rainier, and see if I can get them a load of AV.

My frame of mind:

Exasperated. I had convinced them that the symptoms were easier to reproduce than they turned out to be (I really thought they were). Rep seemed to believe there is a problem. Just how seriously they’re taking it I can’t say, but he stressed the need to repro it. One of the things that brought him to the dealership was that we had 2 bikes, and Yamaha thought there was a high probability of reproducing the symptoms. Seems to me, this should be approach from both ends: customer bikes and complaints, AND the R&D end. I've gotta believe if MammaYamma wanted, the development teams could go over the 06 to 07 changes with microscopes and come up with some testable leads.

Conclusions:

Maybe temp plays a bigger role than I’d assumed.

This may take a long, long time to resolve at the rate things are going.

For the time being, I'm still going to work hard with the dealer and Yamaha. Though I cannot continue to do this forever.