2010 FJR
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RadioHowie
I Miss Beemerdons!
"So why is sex like eating a Chinese dinner?"
You're not finished until EVERYONE gets their cookies.
:lol2:
You're not finished until EVERYONE gets their cookies.
:lol2:
escapefjrtist
Searching for Dry Roads
So Howie you're kind of a glass half empty guy aren't you... :blink:
Simply quoting recall numbers is only giving half the story. Were these bikes recalled...yes, so what. The real issue is how many bikes were actually affected by the problems. Very Few.
Yamaha never enacted a recall on the timex tickers... why? Yet, they continue to fix them under what, good faith? How many bikes were effected, again very few. Don't forget the TPS recall, were a lot of bikes recalled, yep. How many actually experienced a problem?
My point is a small percentage experiences a problem and it's now gospel. I read it on the internet...it must be true.
--G
RaYzerman19
Go Wings!
If I had an '06, I would just get the fixes done since it's a lot cheaper than buying a new one. Plus the spider issue still exists, and you'll probably still want a PCV. I'd wait until Gen III comes along.
Imp
Well-known member
Got 39,000 miles on the 08 and no spider issues so far. All the long trips where made when it was raining ( pure luck 
). My wifes 07 does seems faster, she also gets better mpg. On our last trip she got and average of 50 mpg while I got 48.8.
). My wifes 07 does seems faster, she also gets better mpg. On our last trip she got and average of 50 mpg while I got 48.8.
Harvey
Well-known member
I agree with George.
I do know what the spider issue is and yes I did the Brodie bypass and none of my Spiders were in any way burnt. And I don't know if it is heat that is the issue with the Spider's but I've ridden mine in 115F last summer. I know folks had the ignition switch issue, but I am one that didn't and yes I did do the recall plus the Brodie relay for that issue (just in case). So I did both of Brodie's fixes just in case, but I'm not sure it was warranted.
All you guys are way smarter than me technically but this was started by a guy trying to find out if he should get a 2010 FJR. Maybe I am in the minority but I can't for any statistical sense see why this bike is any more problematic than others. In fact it is one hell of a bike that seems darned well engineered. We could tell him to get a ST1300 or Concours and he would burn his legs, or lose his Ki-Pass, or whatever. I had a ST1300 that kept blowing fuses, but does that mean all ST's are junk, I doubt it.
I'm sold on both the Gen I and II FJRs. Just get on the bike and ride like hell and follow the maintenance schedule is my opinion. I think any year FJR would be great if it hasn't been crashed or abused. This guys is asking about a 2010. I say buy it and go ride.
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bramfrank
BramFrank
I suppose that the quick answer would be that if you like the FJR you should buy it. Whether Yamaha eventually steps up for the spider issue or not is essentially irrelevant because we cannot quantify what it is that causes the spiders to fail and it doesn't happen to every bike. I didn't run out and sell my bike when I determined that it suffered the problem and I personally don't think you should reject the model for that reason either.
For a relatively small amount of money you can to a large degree protect yourself from the problem by installing a bypass harness.
The thing about recalls is that they are less for the informed, but rather for the general public, which apparently likes to stumble around in blissful ignorance, believing that the government will look out for their welfare.
The purpose of a recall is almost always about safety - a ticker is not a safety issue and so would never be a recall issue unless the manufacturer decided to deal with it that way themselves - and that would only happen if they figured that they had a fix that was cheaper to implement for everyone than to deal with only failed machines. Interesting enough, knowing about the design defect almost certainly makes them liable without limit - so they aren't exactly 'being charitable' by fixing machines that suffer. Because if you fix it and sue them (in small claims court) and can bring evidence of faulty design and their history of fixing machines outside of the warranty period to a courtroom you will be almost certainly be reimbursed - at full retail.
However the POTENTIAL for the ignition switch to fail or for the TPS sensor to fail while underway possibly causing a crash resulting in injury or death IS a safety issue and as such a mandatory repair for the manufacturer.
The Spider issue is not a small thing; Check out the poll thread and you'll see that more than 100 bikes have been affected so far THAT WE KNOW OF. Bikes have been quietly fixed by dealers without their owners knowing what went wrong - often those repairs were 'seat of the pants' by the dealer and might not be effective (or could even make the problem worse - who knows?).
If you check the index thread you will find that when the first person affected by the problem that we know of reported it, a tech at an Atlanta Yamaha dealer piped up with the diagnosis and the comment that they had been seeing machines coming in with the problem for a while. And if they were, you can be certain that other dealers were too.
Interesting enough, knowing that Yamaha in the US has replaced a number of wiring harnesses and presumably have been contacted about warranty claims for the problem, that they'd admit the matter and step up - as far as we know there has been no action on their part. I seem to recall reading on this board that some of their customers were charged as much as $1200 IIRC for the repair - that's just wrong.
I am trained as an engineer and having spent a quarter century in sales in high tech industries, I personally resent when manufacturers release defective products and then don't take responsibility (hence my general outrage about Garmin).
Watching multiple reports come in on this board of what I judged to be a safety defect with potentially serious consequences, I started the thread with the poll and when it became clear that this was a systemic problem, encouraged those affected to report their experiences to the NHTSA - Why? because I consider the members here part of 'my circle' and would prefer not to read about how someone I correspond with was killed under the wheels of an 18 wheeler or bus because his bike shut down unexpectedly while riding in traffic on a busy interstate.
When my bike was affected (I am in Canada) it was clear that the scope of the reporting had to be expanded somewhat, to include Canada (I had previously thought that a US recall would be automatically extended to Canada because the ECU, TPS, top box and Ignition switch responses were mirrored here, but the online research that I undertook when my S4 bit the biscuit indicated otherwise), so I reported the problem to TC.
You'd think that the '1 for 10 rule' would apply to this problem. Given certain knowledge of at least a hundred failures in the 'states, we'd expect at least 10 units to have failed in Canada (10%, because we are a market that is roughly 1/10th the size of the US market) - but how can we know?
The Customer Service Manager at Yamaha Canada told me that they hadn't been informed of any problems because they've never delivered a wiring harness to a Canadian dealer. I pointed out that they almost certainly had claims on file from dealers and was told that there were none - but we know for fact that at least one claim was filed in Canada in BC . . . . .
And asking the dealers wouldn't help because even if they charged a client for the repair they probably would never remember and their warranty claims may have been pretty wishy-washy (they aren't electrical engineers, after all), making them impossible to analyze.
Don't think that this forum attracts more than a minority percentage of FJR owners - and even then, many people are somewhat reticent about posting, so the fact that over the years some 22,000 people signed up means absolutely nothing.
According to Transport Canada, their concerns lie in two areas; The first is what MIGHT happen if your S4 spider decides to crap out while underway; You will lose engine, head and brake lights and could well get killed, depending on where you are and what you are doing when it goes.
The second is that the proximity of the S4 spider to the fuel tank (their words, not mine) has them concerned that if the connector or it's attached wires should actually catch fire, it could be catastrophic for the machine and rider. The ideas from their perspective is that where there IS smoke there COULD be fire - and that close to the gas tank and fuel lines is a possible issue for them (OK, you and I know there's a thermal shield over the engine - I suppose that they'll figure that out when Yamaha files the report) doesn't absolve Yamaha from the primary problem, which is that you lose power and the ability to signal while in traffic . . . . .
The real possible tragedy is that it is always possible that someone HAS ALREADY been killed. They don't investigate bike crashes with the same zeal that they do accidents involving planes that fall out of the sky.
As to ambient 'heat' causing the problem? No. It does not appear that it causes the spiders to fail.
Near as we can figure, the connectors, which are not waterproof, can suffer from corrosion over time because of humidity and possibly corrosive materials that are spread on road surfaces or simply in the air (salt and such). Also the type of connector can suffer from fatigue over time and as a result of one or the other problem or both the connection can become somewhat resistive - the resistance, whether due to corrosion or simply a loose connection manifests itself by heating up (which will further increase the resistance of the connection) and the connector itself or the spider that is plugged into it will heat to the point of breaking the connection and possibly frying the wires connected to the connector while this is going on. This is known as 'thermal runaway'.
Interesting, the latter (fried wires) is not likely to kill the bike, but will rather probably weld the wires together and keep the bike running, though the wires will have become brittle and there could be damage to other wiring in the harness..
The solution is going to be interesting.
You don't just twist wires together and solder them in a high vibration environment because solder is very brittle and the connector gets shaken around a lot.
Perhaps stripping back the wiring, twisting the wires together, capping it with a proper, heat resistant MARR style (electrical twist) connector and waterproofing the joint properly would do the trick. That'll be up to Yamaha and the authorities to work out.
In the meantime, for some reason Yamaha doesn't want to speak with me directly, but has reportedly been 'repeatedly asking' my dealer to get me to bring my machine to his shop and leave it there (which is something of a hardship for me) so they can 'inspect it', (I would use the word 'hounding', but my dealer didn't) .
Now, they have a photo of the offending connector, and I have cleaned up the spider and connector and put the machine back together, so I'm not sure just what it is they plan to do with the bike.
But the new customer service field rep has been resisting my dealer's attempts to get my headlight reflector replaced again - and I need to have the ignition switch & ECU swaps done, so I have simply told the dealer that they can have the bike when they confirm that Yamaha has delivered all the parts - going to be interesting, because Yamaha has 30 days to respond to Transport Canada from what I understand.
For a relatively small amount of money you can to a large degree protect yourself from the problem by installing a bypass harness.
The thing about recalls is that they are less for the informed, but rather for the general public, which apparently likes to stumble around in blissful ignorance, believing that the government will look out for their welfare.
The purpose of a recall is almost always about safety - a ticker is not a safety issue and so would never be a recall issue unless the manufacturer decided to deal with it that way themselves - and that would only happen if they figured that they had a fix that was cheaper to implement for everyone than to deal with only failed machines. Interesting enough, knowing about the design defect almost certainly makes them liable without limit - so they aren't exactly 'being charitable' by fixing machines that suffer. Because if you fix it and sue them (in small claims court) and can bring evidence of faulty design and their history of fixing machines outside of the warranty period to a courtroom you will be almost certainly be reimbursed - at full retail.
However the POTENTIAL for the ignition switch to fail or for the TPS sensor to fail while underway possibly causing a crash resulting in injury or death IS a safety issue and as such a mandatory repair for the manufacturer.
The Spider issue is not a small thing; Check out the poll thread and you'll see that more than 100 bikes have been affected so far THAT WE KNOW OF. Bikes have been quietly fixed by dealers without their owners knowing what went wrong - often those repairs were 'seat of the pants' by the dealer and might not be effective (or could even make the problem worse - who knows?).
If you check the index thread you will find that when the first person affected by the problem that we know of reported it, a tech at an Atlanta Yamaha dealer piped up with the diagnosis and the comment that they had been seeing machines coming in with the problem for a while. And if they were, you can be certain that other dealers were too.
Interesting enough, knowing that Yamaha in the US has replaced a number of wiring harnesses and presumably have been contacted about warranty claims for the problem, that they'd admit the matter and step up - as far as we know there has been no action on their part. I seem to recall reading on this board that some of their customers were charged as much as $1200 IIRC for the repair - that's just wrong.
I am trained as an engineer and having spent a quarter century in sales in high tech industries, I personally resent when manufacturers release defective products and then don't take responsibility (hence my general outrage about Garmin).
Watching multiple reports come in on this board of what I judged to be a safety defect with potentially serious consequences, I started the thread with the poll and when it became clear that this was a systemic problem, encouraged those affected to report their experiences to the NHTSA - Why? because I consider the members here part of 'my circle' and would prefer not to read about how someone I correspond with was killed under the wheels of an 18 wheeler or bus because his bike shut down unexpectedly while riding in traffic on a busy interstate.
When my bike was affected (I am in Canada) it was clear that the scope of the reporting had to be expanded somewhat, to include Canada (I had previously thought that a US recall would be automatically extended to Canada because the ECU, TPS, top box and Ignition switch responses were mirrored here, but the online research that I undertook when my S4 bit the biscuit indicated otherwise), so I reported the problem to TC.
You'd think that the '1 for 10 rule' would apply to this problem. Given certain knowledge of at least a hundred failures in the 'states, we'd expect at least 10 units to have failed in Canada (10%, because we are a market that is roughly 1/10th the size of the US market) - but how can we know?
The Customer Service Manager at Yamaha Canada told me that they hadn't been informed of any problems because they've never delivered a wiring harness to a Canadian dealer. I pointed out that they almost certainly had claims on file from dealers and was told that there were none - but we know for fact that at least one claim was filed in Canada in BC . . . . .
And asking the dealers wouldn't help because even if they charged a client for the repair they probably would never remember and their warranty claims may have been pretty wishy-washy (they aren't electrical engineers, after all), making them impossible to analyze.
Don't think that this forum attracts more than a minority percentage of FJR owners - and even then, many people are somewhat reticent about posting, so the fact that over the years some 22,000 people signed up means absolutely nothing.
According to Transport Canada, their concerns lie in two areas; The first is what MIGHT happen if your S4 spider decides to crap out while underway; You will lose engine, head and brake lights and could well get killed, depending on where you are and what you are doing when it goes.
The second is that the proximity of the S4 spider to the fuel tank (their words, not mine) has them concerned that if the connector or it's attached wires should actually catch fire, it could be catastrophic for the machine and rider. The ideas from their perspective is that where there IS smoke there COULD be fire - and that close to the gas tank and fuel lines is a possible issue for them (OK, you and I know there's a thermal shield over the engine - I suppose that they'll figure that out when Yamaha files the report) doesn't absolve Yamaha from the primary problem, which is that you lose power and the ability to signal while in traffic . . . . .
The real possible tragedy is that it is always possible that someone HAS ALREADY been killed. They don't investigate bike crashes with the same zeal that they do accidents involving planes that fall out of the sky.
As to ambient 'heat' causing the problem? No. It does not appear that it causes the spiders to fail.
Near as we can figure, the connectors, which are not waterproof, can suffer from corrosion over time because of humidity and possibly corrosive materials that are spread on road surfaces or simply in the air (salt and such). Also the type of connector can suffer from fatigue over time and as a result of one or the other problem or both the connection can become somewhat resistive - the resistance, whether due to corrosion or simply a loose connection manifests itself by heating up (which will further increase the resistance of the connection) and the connector itself or the spider that is plugged into it will heat to the point of breaking the connection and possibly frying the wires connected to the connector while this is going on. This is known as 'thermal runaway'.
Interesting, the latter (fried wires) is not likely to kill the bike, but will rather probably weld the wires together and keep the bike running, though the wires will have become brittle and there could be damage to other wiring in the harness..
The solution is going to be interesting.
You don't just twist wires together and solder them in a high vibration environment because solder is very brittle and the connector gets shaken around a lot.
Perhaps stripping back the wiring, twisting the wires together, capping it with a proper, heat resistant MARR style (electrical twist) connector and waterproofing the joint properly would do the trick. That'll be up to Yamaha and the authorities to work out.
In the meantime, for some reason Yamaha doesn't want to speak with me directly, but has reportedly been 'repeatedly asking' my dealer to get me to bring my machine to his shop and leave it there (which is something of a hardship for me) so they can 'inspect it', (I would use the word 'hounding', but my dealer didn't) .
Now, they have a photo of the offending connector, and I have cleaned up the spider and connector and put the machine back together, so I'm not sure just what it is they plan to do with the bike.
But the new customer service field rep has been resisting my dealer's attempts to get my headlight reflector replaced again - and I need to have the ignition switch & ECU swaps done, so I have simply told the dealer that they can have the bike when they confirm that Yamaha has delivered all the parts - going to be interesting, because Yamaha has 30 days to respond to Transport Canada from what I understand.
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mcatrophy
Privileged to ride a 2018 FJR1300AS
QUOTE (Harvey @ Jun 26 2010, 11:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
...
Isn't the "spider" issue caused by heat?
Not directly. The heat seen in some of the worst cases is due to electrical resistance that comes from corrosion in the connector, the resistance then heating with the normal current flow that the non-corroded connector is well capable of carrying.
This may well become a vicious spiral, the heat produced causing more corrosion ("burning") that increases resistance further.
If there was no corrosion, there'd be no heat.
This picture (click on image for larger view)
shows minor corrosion, but no sign of heat. I smeared petroleum jelly over it, and subsequent inspection shows no further ill effects.
...
Isn't the "spider" issue caused by heat?
Not directly. The heat seen in some of the worst cases is due to electrical resistance that comes from corrosion in the connector, the resistance then heating with the normal current flow that the non-corroded connector is well capable of carrying.
This may well become a vicious spiral, the heat produced causing more corrosion ("burning") that increases resistance further.
If there was no corrosion, there'd be no heat.
This picture (click on image for larger view)
shows minor corrosion, but no sign of heat. I smeared petroleum jelly over it, and subsequent inspection shows no further ill effects.
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Imp
Well-known member
I got the heat covered too. I live in Florida and am riding in 110 degreee weather right now, and while I am in bumper to bumper traffic, the bike does get HOT. I was under the impression that corrosion would cause the "spider" failure. That is why I mentioned the rides in the rain. The FJR is parked about 20 feet from salt water at home so I am sure it does get some salt mist. I am concerned about the spider issue, but my post was to show that not all 2nd gens have the issue.
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