A break in the action

[bvail]

It is not technically cheating, as the rules do not specifically prohibit this activity..... so, the rallymaster can't really intervene. This year, anyway.
Besides, it's sort of an un-enforcable rule.... these guys would just go down the road and make phone calls to their pupper-masters anyway.... :glare:

Still, this year, there was some attempt to prevent these riders from receiving their bonus listing, faxing them to their "teams", and then go to sleep while their route was planned for them.... all bonus sheets were printed on dark red paper. So when faxed... it came out all black on the receiving end.

However.... it appears some of these "asterisk" riders evidently thought something like the red-paper listings would happen, and had their teams simply come directly to the Doubletree Inn at the Start and mid-way point to plot their puppet's route. :glare:

That definitely takes a bit of the shine off for me. Its cheating as far as I am concerned. Where is the Rallymasters discretion in all this?

Don't let it do this.... there are PLENTY of riders who are "pure of heart", and doing this the right way. Like the ones I mentioned above. Indeed, the VAST majority of entrants are running this event in the spirit intended.

I'm assuming that two participants working together (or three, or whatever) is perfectly acceptable? I certainly don't think non-participants should be assisting, but I think the "team" strategy (where a couple of riders work and ride together) is pretty cool. Not to mention that it's safer to ride w/ someone.

This is ABSOLUTELY acceptable.... if actual IBR entrants want to work and ride together, this is fine.

But this other approach is complete and utter ********. I turn my back on these guys..... what are they going to do if they end up in the Top 10? Are they going to bring their "team" up to the podium to receive their trophy, too? :glare:

Actually, I wish they would do exactly that..........

If Karma and bad Mojo kicks in and they don't make it to podium status, they have an easy out - they can always blame the 'team'. :blink:

 

[Fjroamer]

...future considerations:

1) asterisk beside finishers name highlighting "outside assistance; routing"

2) furure IBR Rally rules, unassisted class, assisted class (assuming it will keep on happening)

3) assisted routing class given different (harder??) parameters or less points for same bonusses

what was the Rally like before the conveniences of GPS???? (just wondering here...)

most people will always look for the competitive advantage, human nature being what it is...

future rule ammendments do seem necessary to protect the integrity of the event. Have at it Warchild!

 

[Rogue]

I would rather finish in the bottom 50% than win like that but IMO it is legal if the rules don't specifically ban it. :angry2:

It would be a really hard rule to enforce, IMO the solution is to have all the Rally Masters insert a rule into their rallys to the effect of:

Any participant found to be soliciting/accepting help in route planning and/or bonus collecting in this or any other IBA recognized rally will on the first offense be disqualified on this rally and banned from any and all IBA recognized rallys for 12 months and on the second offense be banned from any and all IBA recognized rallys and rides for life.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Thug]

Why does there always have to be some lazy, grub cheating fuckstick who think there only way in life to make something of them selves is to ******* cheat??? Expose them for what they are and **** them off forever I say!!!

Did they have assistance? = YES, then they cheated and must be disqualified period.

 

[OhioFJR1300]

Besides, it's sort of an un-enforcable rule.... these guys would just go down the road and make phone calls to their pupper-masters anyway....

Perhaps disallowing cellphone use on the bikes? That would at least force them to waste time making a stop to make phone calls.

How could you enforce that rule? No matter what rule you add, if someone wants to bend it, they will. Too bad that in a sport like LD riding , with as few people that are into it, there are still those that will look for some way to make it easier for themselves regardless of the rules . Time will tell.

 

[devanator]

I was actually thinking of this very thing happening just a day or two ago. It made me think of the Tour de France. You've got these big teams backing all these riders, even though they are individually riding the tour. The individual wins the ride because of his ride but the teams helps him with logistics. I'm sure if you did some research it didn't start out that way.

I personally don't agree with teams or individuals helping with either. In the two rallies I did last year, I thought half the fun in these rallies is the skill YOU (a person) showed in doing the route the way he or she felt would give a shot at being atop the podium. Not somebody in a motel with computors and a bonus list. (if that's whats happening) It certainly doesn't make it a even playing field.

devanator/Mike

 

[boogahboogah]

Some people... If I was riding the IBR & found out someone that got a better score than me had outside help on route planning & strategy, well, I don't know just what I would do but I would be furious, absolutely crash bang furious.

 

[radman]

I don't ride in these-and I didn't stay in a Holiday Inn last night, so I am far from being qualified to comment on all this-but I'm gonna anyway. They've been running these for years now, correct? That being said, do the ol' time winners complain about GPS's, laptops, luxury rides like the Wing, current Beemer offerings, the FJR, as opposed to what used to be considered standard for the contest? Bobby Allison drove #2 to the track on race day, charmingly antiquated compared to todays teams, doncha think? Does that really diminish the effort required to win a Cup race today, or make the accomplishment any less rewarding? In any race, the smartest team wins, and one of the requirements to win today (really, always has been) involves careful rule scrutinization to take maximum advantage where possible, simply the state of competition today. I don't doubt that, lacking rules preventing it, a majority of individuals/teams competing in the future will also have support crews to aid in the effort. So maybe it's not so much an insult to the past, as it is a look at the future. Good or bad, all things change, as all things must

 

[kaitsdad]

Why does there always have to be some lazy, grub cheating fuckstick who think there only way in life to make something of them selves is to ******* cheat??? Expose them for what they are and **** them off forever I say!!!
Did they have assistance? = YES, then they cheated and must be disqualified period.

Thug, while I might choose different adjectives, [SIZE=18pt]GUNNY !!![/SIZE]

I've been chewing on this situation since I saw Warchild's post - and I keep coming up with ways to 'quell' it - but there's also always a way around what I come up with. I can only guess that the IBA has been brainstorming this for quite a while - and it's going to be difficult as the riders do not do the rally in a vacuum.

They all have the ability to communicate with anyone they choose at just about any time. And for the basic reasons of safety, this needs to continue.

Apparently there are some riders that don't have the ethics it takes - but with what are apparently few exceptions, these are really good people. The few riders in the rally that I have met speak very highly and with great respect of the others. And I doubt they would speak easily of such a thing.

If a rider doing it the hard way only manages to place second - perhaps because the winner had a civilian branch of the CIA behind him, I would consider the second place rider the winner of the rally. That is what I would think, and feel.

So - as to the current rally - I refuse to let the (what you said above) screw up my enjoyment of the process. Effem. I would not be surprised if the riders utilizing this advantage had their names 'leaked' to the community at some point after the finish. And while we sit here discussing this on a world wide forum - the LD Community is VERY small, and reputations are made AND BROKEN quickly.

Somebody needs to go pee on their stators and their Polaroids. Period.

 

[odot]

Did warchild go for a ride or what?

 

[Rogue]

Did warchild go for a ride or what?

Well I sent him a (totally unrelated) PM and no response yet so.................

 

[Bearly Flying]

So If I go for an IBA Record and solicit funds for the effort, have somebody service my bike , change tires, feed me and provide a place to sleep while my bike is being serviced, Is that NOT a TEAM effort?????????

Just wondering??????

 

[burnergold2B]

Why does there always have to be some lazy, grub cheating fuckstick who think there only way in life to make something of them selves is to ******* cheat??? Expose them for what they are and **** them off forever I say!!!
Did they have assistance? = YES, then they cheated and must be disqualified period.

+1

I can make an educated guess as to who it is, who is helping them, and why. I've seen their politics in action and up close. They are pretty ugly people and will turn a win into a global marketing campaign. Oh well, I know why I ride and wrench. Consider this feejer fuel for '09 I guess.

 

[gypsy]

How could you enforce that rule? No matter what rule you add, if someone wants to bend it, they will.

Of course you can always find a small group of people in any endeavor who would be willing to cheat but I don't really believe the majority of those getting assistance this year would actually do it if it was expressly against the rules. While I agree that it takes the shine off a lot of the rides for me, and frankly I am not sure what satisfaction they get from doing it this way, it is not expressly against the rules. If such a rule is implemented for 2009 I can't imagine riders would outrightly cheat. Maybe I have too much faith in humanity.

gypsy

 

[jwhite518]

So If I go for an IBA Record and solicit funds for the effort, have somebody service my bike , change tires, feed me and provide a place to sleep while my bike is being serviced, Is that NOT a TEAM effort?????????

Just wondering??????

That's mixing apples and oranges. The IBR is a competition, butt solo rides like the Dale's BBG record are not. In a competition the playing field needs to be level for all competitors. That's why teams are not allowed - because most people don't have them and it gives an advantage to those who do. (Also probably a strong wish to keep it an amateur event.) And actually, all of the above activities: bike service while sleeping, food, a bed: Hey, sounds like an IBR checkpoint.

 

[Rickster]

edit: removed my irresponsible comments regarding changing the rules.

 

[Geezer]

I watched the F1 race this morning. Very enjoyable to watch, great teamwork both on the track and in the pits. Not to mention the many, many people and millions of $$$ that go into prep. A real team effort.

So, for 2008, I predict factory sponsorship of IBR teams. Satellite phones on the factory team bikes directly attached to the one-off custom GPS devices that will direct the rider to each turn. The team will also monitor traffic and modify the route they transmit minute-by-minute. All the rider has to do is stay awake and do what his factory team leader tells him to do. Boy, that sounds like fun, doesn't it?

 

[650cent]

I don't ride in these-and I didn't stay in a Holiday Inn last night, so I am far from being qualified to comment on all this-but I'm gonna anyway. They've been running these for years now, correct? That being said, do the ol' time winners complain about GPS's, laptops, luxury rides like the Wing, current Beemer offerings, the FJR, as opposed to what used to be considered standard for the contest? Bobby Allison drove #2 to the track on race day, charmingly antiquated compared to todays teams, doncha think? Does that really diminish the effort required to win a Cup race today, or make the accomplishment any less rewarding? In any race, the smartest team wins, and one of the requirements to win today (really, always has been) involves careful rule scrutinization to take maximum advantage where possible, simply the state of competition today. I don't doubt that, lacking rules preventing it, a majority of individuals/teams competing in the future will also have support crews to aid in the effort. So maybe it's not so much an insult to the past, as it is a look at the future. Good or bad, all things change, as all things must

Have to agree on that. Great last sentence by the way, Rad. Mind if I use that someday?

Bill

 

[Warchild]

So If I go for an IBA Record and solicit funds for the effort, have somebody service my bike , change tires, feed me and provide a place to sleep while my bike is being serviced, Is that NOT a TEAM effort?????????

Just wondering??????

That's mixing apples and oranges. The IBR is a competition, butt solo rides like the Dale's BBG record are not. In a competition the playing field needs to be level for all competitors. That's why teams are not allowed - because most people don't have them and it gives an advantage to those who do. (Also probably a strong wish to keep it an amateur event.) And actually, all of the above activities: bike service while sleeping, food, a bed: Hey, sounds like an IBR checkpoint.

Apples/oranges is exactly correct.

BBGHW was indeed a team effort; I would not have been able to do this without Brain & Jan Roberts.

But BBGHW was not a competitive event pitting riders against one another. The difference here is obvious. To try to make a comparison between the two indicates a complete lack of understanding of what the Iron Butt Rally is all about.

 

[bvail]

I don't ride in these-and I didn't stay in a Holiday Inn last night, so I am far from being qualified to comment on all this-but I'm gonna anyway. They've been running these for years now, correct? That being said, do the ol' time winners complain about GPS's, laptops, luxury rides like the Wing, current Beemer offerings, the FJR, as opposed to what used to be considered standard for the contest? Bobby Allison drove #2 to the track on race day, charmingly antiquated compared to todays teams, doncha think? Does that really diminish the effort required to win a Cup race today, or make the accomplishment any less rewarding? In any race, the smartest team wins, and one of the requirements to win today (really, always has been) involves careful rule scrutinization to take maximum advantage where possible, simply the state of competition today. I don't doubt that, lacking rules preventing it, a majority of individuals/teams competing in the future will also have support crews to aid in the effort. So maybe it's not so much an insult to the past, as it is a look at the future. Good or bad, all things change, as all things must

Have to agree on that. Great last sentence by the way, Rad. Mind if I use that someday?

Bill

Things certainly change from one event to the next, as technology improves, etc. Hey, nobody had a mobile phone on that first IBR, I'll bet. The bikes got better, tires, oils, farkles, even satellite transponders. Along with a fellow by the name of Craig, I changed a couple of FJR wheel/tires and did oil changes during the 2005 IBR. Now this year Smitty brings out the FJR hospitality tent, complete with a No-Mar tire changer, etc. Now that's progress :yahoo: Were we cheating? Can't really say.

Since on the go trip planning was definitely part of the challenge in years past and still is for the majority who choose to go it alone, those who rely on help from others in the planning department should if they make it to the podium should, IMHO, acknowledge the help they received - that would be the right thing to do. The rally isn't over and I would think that sooner or later it will come to light those who chose not to 'go it alone'.

It's too bad that things have come to this, as it dilutes the purity of this event. How can a winner (with the help of others) claim to be the best?