A break in the action

[650cent]

I can see both points. aka Hank Aaron or Barry Bonds. Who owns the real record. Bottom line is you still have to hit the ball or do the miles.

Bill

 

[Warchild]

I don't ride in these-and I didn't stay in a Holiday Inn last night, so I am far from being qualified to comment on all this-but I'm gonna anyway. They've been running these for years now, correct? That being said, do the ol' time winners complain about GPS's, laptops, luxury rides like the Wing, current Beemer offerings, the FJR, as opposed to what used to be considered standard for the contest?

Not in the least. Riders have always had the option of riding any 2 or 3-wheeled machine they want. Since the technology has been readily available (late 90's), riders have always been free to use whatever GPS and mapping software they like. The DIFFERENCE, however, is that the participating RIDERS are the ones using this technology to aid their cause.... NOT an outside team of well-rested non-participants comprised of previous Iron Butt veterans!

In any race, the smartest team wins

Oh, my.... let's be crystal clear here: the Iron Butt Rally IS NOT a race! Consider the very first opening paragraph of the IBR Rules:

The Iron Butt Rally (hereinafter, IBR) is an eleven-day motorcycle event, broken into sections (or legs), traversing a large section of North America. It is not a race. No benefits, actual or implied, accrue to the rider who finishes a section (or the entire rally) in the least amount of time. Finishing positions will be determined solely by the points obtained by the riders during the entirety of the event.

This stance is brutally enforced. If you run at high speeds, we'll know about it. Between bonuses you captured, your fuel log, odometer readings, etc, it will be revealed.

and one of the requirements to win today (really, always has been) involves careful rule scrutinization to take maximum advantage where possible, simply the state of competition today.

Very true in the cage-oriented events. But when it comes to pushing the rules envelope, the Iron Butt Association does not adopt the same stance as NASCAR or other cage events. As Rad correctly observes, in NASCAR events, the approach to bending/breaking the rules is basically one of: "catch me if you can". In IBA circles, it is the opposite. Indeed, here is the direct quote from the Rules:

2. Sportsmanship: The rider will act in a sportsmanlike manner at all times. Any attempt at cheating, even to the degree that the rules are alleged not to be understood, can result in immediate disqualification of the rider or such other penalty as the rallymaster may deem appropriate, in his sole discretion. These rules apply to conduct prior to the start of the rally, during the rally, and after the rally without any limitation as to time.

I don't doubt that, lacking rules preventing it, a majority of individuals/teams competing in the future will also have support crews to aid in the effort.

No worries... there will be hardened rules in place to prevent this from happening again, believe me. We are going to put a stop to this horseshit, one way or another.

This year, over 50% of the IBR entrants are rookies. They are experiencing the Ride of their Life, and having a blast. They will return to the Finish Line different people than what they were when they departed 11 days ago. Imagine what they will feel when they learn about this bullshit and think "How the **** was I supposed to compete against a team?!"

 

[Warchild]

Along with a fellow by the name of Craig, I changed a couple of FJR wheel/tires and did oil changes during the 2005 IBR. Now this year Smitty brings out the FJR hospitality tent, complete with a No-Mar tire changer, etc. No that's progress :yahoo: Were we cheating? Can't really say.

I can.

This is NOT cheating whatsoever. This type of non-compensated community support - bike maintenance at checkpoints, etc - has been perfectly acceptable all along.

But if a Factory-support truck pulls up with factory-trained mechanics ready to swap out engines or wholesale components, that is another matter altogether, and is not allowed.

Here is the section of the rules that address this maintenance support at checkpoints:

4. Rider support:Acceptable forms of support include:

a. Using friends to offer expertise or physical assistance to repair or maintain your motorcycle at a checkpoint or along your route.

Unacceptable forms of support include:

a. Using any form of factory/dealer/manufacturer-sponsored vehicles, pit crews, mechanics, employees, or equipment for the support of the rider or the rider's machine. For example, you decide to ride obscure brand-X, which has only 25 dealers across North America. You might feel the need to have brand-X mechanics show up at checkpoints to support your effort with tires, spare parts, and so on. While we understand your circumstances, the fact is that it was your choice to ride brand-X. At each checkpoint at least 75% of the field is at the same disadvantage as you.

When you are contemplating your support options, please remember that the Iron Butt Rally is an amateur event that is designed to promote amateur competition. We have no intention of becoming a professional sport with factory rides. These sponsorship guidelines are an attempt to level the playing field as well as maintain the integrity of the Iron Butt Rally as a non-professional event.

 

[kaitsdad]

This year, over 50% of the IBR entrants are rookies. They are experiencing the Ride of their Life, and having a blast. They will return to the Finish Line different people than what they were when they departed 11 days ago. Imagine what they will feel when they learn about this bullshit and think "How the **** was I supposed to compete against a team?!"

Your statement pretty well sums it up. Gunny.

 

[Warchild]

An excerpt from Day 6 IBR report:

Will It Be the Rider or the Router?
We wouldn't normally provide this much insight into the makings of a smart route so early in a leg, but a lot has changed in the last ten years; riders are getting routing tips from multiple sources. In recent years, the greater complexity of the bonus listings has increased the importance of routing skills in the Iron Butt Rally. But there has been an unintended consequence. There is now a significant number of riders that is depending on outside assistance for route planning. Within a few hours of the bonus listings being distributed, electronic files containing all of the bonuses were moving over the Internet.

Currently, there is a thread entitled "IBR Podium Etiquette" on the Long Distance Riders list. The question is being asked whether the trophies should be awarded to the rider or the router this year.

In some cases, the riders are just screwing themselves by taking routing advice from others. This morning rider Eric Jewell heard spectator Mark Crane say that the round trip to Deadhorse and back was easily doable because it's only 5,500 miles. I know Eric is too smart to take such bogus advice. But other riders are being coached by teams of individuals that include former IBR winners.

Under the current rules, team efforts are not prohibited, but they are inconsistent with the spirit of the Iron Butt Rally, as far as many rally veterans are concerned. For 2009, riders can expect to find changes that will substantially reduce the incentive for outside assistance with their routes.

 

[FJR-Richie]

I still don't get it - the Rallymaster has the authority to broadly interpret the rules regarding Sportmanship and Assistance. Plus the IBA instituted the "red paper" bonii listings to try and head off one avneue of corruption - what these guys are doing is absolutely a parrallel of achieving a means to an end.

Why do so many think if there isn't a specific rule then it is okay? Or that, oh well, we just have to live with it this year until the IBA fixes it. That's bullshit to me.

This sentiment is really what tarnishes it for me. I believe in the "Spirit of Competition" (however you want to define it). If I was the RM I would (assuming proof) DQ the riders with the outside assistance, using my broadly granted authority. My position would be:

"Guys, we instituted the red paper bonii listings to prevent riders from faxing listings to solicit outside help. The fact that you have used different technology or actually provided copies or specifics about bonii positions with the intent to solicit assistance with routing is no different. In my opinion, you have not only circumvented the spirit of our rules but you have specifically contravened our rules with respect to sportsmanship and assistance. Therefore, in my authority as RM, I am discqualifying you from the 2007 IBR effective immediately." Or something to that effect.

It would send a clear message to the riders that cheated that the IBA won't stand for it. Also, maybe it avoids having to put in specific rules - that is a very slippery slope - once you start instituting very specific rules, then you lose the ability to sanction based on the RM's judgement - it will be a free for all in the sense that if it "ain't in the rules then it must be okay". By the time the IBA is finished making rules, it will be the size of the tax code.

I don't know, I am just bummed by this and wish the IBA would just take a stand and quit saying "it wasn't specifically prohibited".

 

[n7myr]

Good point Richie

I for agree

 

[Groo]

This to me is all part and parcel of the general saying I have heard on Sports Radio... "If you're not cheating, you're not trying". How can we bend the rules (just short of breaking them), and taking every advantage we can (even though it might be poor sportsmanship) to end up "the winner". It really is sad.

 

[wfooshee]

From my autocross days (you know, before I got married, bought a house, had to feed four more people, etc.) we had a rule book in the SCCA for Solo II, and it was very clearly stated early in the book that the rules were allowances, not restrictions. If something was not explicitly permitted by the rules, e.g. port polishing, then it wasn't permitted, period. There was no "It doesn't say I can't do that!" It doesn't say you can, so therefore you can't.

 

[ChrisW]

This year, over 50% of the IBR entrants are rookies. They are experiencing the Ride of their Life, and having a blast. They will return to the Finish Line different people than what they were when they departed 11 days ago. Imagine what they will feel when they learn about this bullshit and think "How the **** was I supposed to compete against a team?!"

I doubt anyone that has followed along for any amount of time, or researched past events through ride reports is going to be shocked that for some riders there is a significant amount of outside assistance.

I wasn't selected to ride this year, or ever, but I was willing to go up against the team's on my own, as I'm sure most of the riders this year are doing also.

Teamstrange seems to pull off the "no outside assistance" rule. I have no concerns that someone got more help than I did last year during Buttlite IIII.

If I'm ever offered a slot in the IBR I'll run it on my own. I'll struggle with the decision to get help with maintenance or not. I'd prefer to... I don't know, do it ISDE style with tire irons and mud on my face.

Anyway, I don't think anybody is cheating. "The spirit of the event" means different things to different people. For me it would be an individual effort.

I think it's to bad though that so many rider's efforts are being called into question.

 

[boogahboogah]

The IBR is about an individual's ability, drive, and determination to ride the best possible ride, get home safely, and, oh yeah, get the most bonus points.

It's a test. A test of your ability to ride for days on end, a test of your ability to pick an efficient route that will get you bonii and not keep you on the bike for 24 hours a day. A test of wits, stamina, endurance, and smarts.

If you accepted help from 5 other people taking an algebra test, figuring out all those X's and Y's and the Cosine of doodlely, were you cheating ? Damn straight.

Is that sportsmanship ? Fraid not.

Like my mom used to tell me "Just because other people are doing it doesn't make it right".

(edit rant)

The cheaters should be invited up to the podium, introduced to the rest of the IBR riders, and then be forced to watch as all of their documentation is burned, right in front of them.

(/edit /rant)

 

[weekend rider]

I see there are some people out there that still do not get it.

It is "The Iron Butt rally not thee " The Iron Butts Rally

To many people riding the fence on this one <_<

 

[dcarver]

I agree with an earlier reference to an ISDE post.. No outside help. None. Tire changes, oil, routing... nada. zip. squelch. Each rider to his own. Make this as if it were the first trip across the route.. Just like America was born, individual reliance; nothing more, nothing less.

Signed, a total chicken shit who would never attempt it.. :blink:

 

[squeezer]

Why do so many think if there isn't a specific rule then it is okay? (snip)

Yeah -- that and your comment on sentiment really bring it home.

What I find disappointing is that I've met some of the guys at the top of the points that were NOT on Warchild's list of people who are playing fair. I've met them at other (shorter) rallies. We've talked about the sport. They've given me -- a once or twice a year rallyer -- advice and tips. It doesn't matter what the rules say, they KNOW that isn't kosher. It's explicit in the rules for many rallies, e.g. the Mason-Dixon 20-20, but even when it isn't, participants at this level know what the norms are.

I'm hoping that when the emotions of competition die down a bit, it won't be as bad as it seems.

And if it is, well... it's a small community. People's reputations spread quickly. I imagine some folks will find life difficult at scoring tables.

 

[ChrisW]

The IBR is about an individual's ability, drive, and determination to ride the best possible ride, get home safely, and, oh yeah, get the most bonus points.
It's a test. A test of your ability to ride for days on end, a test of your ability to pick an efficient route that will get you bonii and not keep you on the bike for 24 hours a day. A test of wits, stamina, endurance, and smarts.

It's also about reading comprehension. Remember those words? Show me where it says no outside assistance.

If you accepted help from 5 other people taking an algebra test, figuring out all those X's and Y's and the Cosine of doodlely, were you cheating ? Damn straight.
Is that sportsmanship ? Fraid not.

Except if you need an oil change and a new tire in the parking lot while you have a rest.

(edit rant)The cheaters should be invited up to the podium, introduced to the rest of the IBR riders, and then be forced to watch as all of their documentation is burned, right in front of them.

(/edit /rant)

Ouch.

Hey, I'd be right there with you if it was made clear to the riders that they were not to be granted routing assistance. Maybe it was, I wasn't at the riders meeting. From the rules I read however, I did not come away with the impression that this is the case.

There is an FJR Forum member in the top 10 after leg 1. I know for a fact that he can plan a route (on his own) straight through hell and execute it as planned. I don't know what, if any assistance he is getting, but if I was him I'd be rip-shit when I got home and read all this stuff.

 

[rublenoon]

...That being said, do the ol' time winners complain about GPS's, laptops, luxury rides like the Wing, current Beemer offerings, the FJR, as opposed to what used to be considered standard for the contest?...So maybe it's not so much an insult to the past, as it is a look at the future. Good or bad, all things change, as all things must

+1

 

[Randy]

The IBR is about an individual's ability, drive, and determination to ride the best possible ride, get home safely, and, oh yeah, get the most bonus points.
It's a test. A test of your ability to ride for days on end, a test of [SIZE=18pt]your[/SIZE] ability to pick an efficient route that will get you bonii and not keep you on the bike for 24 hours a day. A test of wits, stamina, endurance, and smarts.

It's also about reading comprehension. Remember those words? Show me where it says no outside assistance.

I highlighted the one word in the quote above that answers your question.

 

[ChrisW]

Show me in the rules, not the text of boogahboogah's thoughts on the subject. I should have been more specific.

 

[TriumphSM]

I was checking out the rules and found this passage on page 16 under the header of "Mapping programs" interesting as it applies to this thread:

"If you feel as though you need a computer but cannot afford a laptop or do not want the hassles of carrying one, we recommend that you have telephone access to a trusted friend with a computer and mapping software. You can call that person after you receive your bonus listing and have mileage tables produced for you."

Yes, it does say A trusted friend, definitely singular which isn't the same as a team of routing experts. But that aside, doesn't this passage encourage outside help for routing, or at least allow it in the rules?

 

[Randy]

I was checking out the rules and found this passage on page 16 under the header of "Mapping programs" interesting as it applies to this thread:
"If you feel as though you need a computer but cannot afford a laptop or do not want the hassles of carrying one, we recommend that you have telephone access to a trusted friend with a computer and mapping software. You can call that person after you receive your bonus listing and have mileage tables produced for you."

Yes, it does say A trusted friend, definitely singular which isn't the same as a team of routing experts. But that aside, doesn't this passage encourage outside help for routing, or at least allow it in the rules?

There's a difference between having mileage tables produced and having someone draw up the routes for you.