A visit to KFG Racing (new owner of GP Suspension)

[Auburn]

Bryan/Greg do i need to bang your heads together or WHAT.........

Bryan i got your PM sorry I didnt reply sooner.....Not sure i wanna be with out my bike for the weeks it will take to do the forks as we in SoCal can ride when we want

R

Nah, Skooter's response illustrated my point very well. He could not tell when I was joking and poking fun either. I did very serioulsy want to point out that as an admin on this board he has a lot of influence whether he chooses to accept that or not. Many of us know the difference after being here for many years but a lot of new people may not.

His "joke" in the first post taken in concert with this post in another thread on the topic https://www.fjrforum.com/forum//index.php/topic/149273-i-did-it/?p=1020812 is what set me off. The other post may be his opinion, but it was without have the total story disclosed by the OP and without letting GP and the OP get together to work it out. IMO it was totally uncalled for. When he refers to the first person (Barabus I assume) who I believe has had all of his issues taken care of as described in this thread https://www.fjrforum.com/forum//index.php/topic/147229-gp-suspension-bye-bye/?p=1007492. And I know that GP is trying to contact Barabus again to make sure he does not have any issues. We all know that RPK has had all of his issues worked out to his satifaction and is happy. Sounds like great customer service to me.

Off my soapbox. All is good I will buy Skooter a

the next time I see him. Even give him a place to crash for the night if he is the neighborhood or needs to work on his bike.

Fairlaner, you came to mind because you have a gen III and I believe you have the knowledge to set up a bike properly and would provide very good feedback to GP if you elect to go that direction. I don't think Barry is in any hurry or on any timeline. He did say he thinks he has the fork caps sourced and some of the internals needed.

Barry has done a set of forks for another brand recently that are built similar to the FJR gen III's.

 

[SkooterG]

Nah, Skooter's response illustrated my point very well. He could not tell when I was joking and poking fun either.

Nope. Care to enlighten me?

His "joke" in the first post taken in concert with this post in another thread on the topic https://www.fjrforum.com/forum//index.php/topic/149273-i-did-it/?p=1020812 is what set me off. The other post may be his opinion, but it was without have the total story disclosed by the OP and without letting GP and the OP get together to work it out. IMO it was totally uncalled for. When he refers to the first person (Barabus I assume) who I believe has had all of his issues taken care of as described in this thread https://www.fjrforum.com/forum//index.php/topic/147229-gp-suspension-bye-bye/?p=1007492. And I know that GP is trying to contact Barabus again to make sure he does not have any issues. We all know that RPK has had all of his issues worked out to his satifaction and is happy. Sounds like great customer service to me.

Yep, I am entitled to my opinion. And I am not going into any more detail on it in a public forum with a vendor currently running a group buy. But why are you such the GP apologist? Why is an attack on them, an attack on you? It's ok if not everybody loves GP. It's a big wide world out there with lots of good suspension shops. Seems there are plenty who are satisfied with GP and are spreading the good word. Are dissenting opinions not allowed? Why do you take it so personally? The more I think about it, the more I am convinced my initial reply wasn't that bad. So why did you get so defensive about it?

Oh, and still waiting for those specific examples of my shoddy maintenance regimen..........

 

[Fairlaner]

I think I will start keeping my eyes open for some gen2 forks as a replacement so WHEN i do decide to do this i will not be bike less for any time.....

R

 

[wheatonFJR]

Nice report Hudson. Sounds like you and Auburn let KFG know what they're getting into with the FJR community.

Good looking shop, GP set the bar high and time will tell if KFG will live up to our expectations.

--G

Definitely a nice report. I will definitely consider GP again and am looking at their products now in the group buy...comparing their services and prices to other vendors.

 

[MCRIDER007]

I think I will start keeping my eyes open for some gen2 forks as a replacement so WHEN i do decide to do this i will not be bike less for any time.....

If you had a set of gen2 forks you could upgrade those forks with the existing suspension kits and put them on your GEN III.....which is what I did on my C14 (it now has ZX-14 forks). Good luck finding the gen2 forks, I have been looking on ebay for a week and no one is selling them.

 

[user 213]

These different opinions on shock service intervals always bring out the differences in riding styles. Something to consider is that there are basically three types of riders on this forum. Those that use the FJR as a sport bike, those that use it to go places, (and go a lot of places), and those that use it simply to enjoy the world around them and have fun doing it on a bike.

The first two categories of riders typically will spring for aftermarket suspension, the last rarely does. Guys like Auburn enjoy the fine edge of what suspension upgrades can offer. Guys like Skooter and I, appreciate how much better the upgrades are too, but aren't worried about perfection. I'm sure not looking for the fine edge of performance, just wanting to keep the back end doing what it should, not wallowing around and get it sprung for the weight I'm putting on the bike.

Like Skooter, I'm not spending $800-1600 on a shock and expecting to rebuild it every 10k. But then, 10k could be two weeks of riding for me, or it could be 3 months, but it's not a year! The suspension shops are aimed at the racer market and almost always run by former racers. They are used to finding that fine edge of performance and working to keep the bike at that fine edge. That's great for an FJR guy that wants to ride his bike hard in the twisties and that's his primary riding, along with only putting on ~10k a year. The financial and time outlay for annual service seems in line with their needs.

OTOH, the financial and time outlay for someone that rides ~40k a year is significantly higher if following that 10k service interval suggestion. It's a heck of a lot more likely we're going to accept once a year on the service interval, but more likely we simply wait until it feels like it needs it, to us. Yes, performance drops off, but remember, we're not spending most rides at that edge, pushing hard either. We're not nearly as hard on the shock as the sport guys that are enjoying hard riding in the twisties on most of their rides, even if we are running higher loads, (imho).

At 50k on it's last rebuild my FJR's Wilbers shock, (serviced by GP), was still far and away better than a newer oem shock. At 160k, with 50k on the last rebuild, I swapped bikes with a fellow with a '10 Gen II that had just over 10k on his bike. The stock shock on hard still sucked in comparison to my bike. The Gen II owner even remarked how much better my old Gen I rode in the corners and over the bumpy stuff, just eating it up w/o notice. I did also have the full GP fork work done.

The point here is that even a 'tired' aftermarket shock, set up correctly, is offering higher performance than the stock shock is. All the more so when you factor in those of us that are well over the weight of the Yamaha factory rider that the suspension seems to have been designed for.

And some of us worry about paying for gas, tires and food more than others. I can't always justify spending money on the bike for something that isn't screaming to be dealt with.

 

[dcarver]

I'm not so much a flat land rider, nor do I crave the interstates to ride 1k+/24hrs. I live in twisty curvy off camber decreasing radius corner country, and put on about 30k+ a year. Given those parameters, I routinely wear tire edges to cord before center line, and yes, I can tell a significant difference in handling after my yearly fork/shock refreshes. I say all this in support of Eric's comment above.

 

[GP Suspension]

Okay, so the service intervals on a Penske, I personally would service my own shock every 10K, I'm a little OCD about my suspension ha ha. 20K is fine, 30K is too long, but just like your engine, some will go longer on oil changes than others. The contaminants on any shock brand are usually the culprits to the corrosion of shims. The 8987 triple adjust shock has a shim stack on the high speed circuit, if those get corrosion, then it can be $150 labor to replace them, the piston shims are easy and usually only a few bucks. The high speed shims are never a fun job, I just did one last week, I attribute the cause to mileage and "time". The longer a shock sits, years, then the chances of corrosion go up, because it allows the contaminants to sit on the steel shims. Yes, my background is racing, but I have ridden on the street since 1987, and we work on a lot of street bike suspension.

In the racing world, some of the top guys/gals have the shock fluid changed every other race weekend, maybe have 400-500 miles on the shock fluid but it does make a difference. This is extreme, and not uncommon, because they are looking for most performance they can get out of the shock. Now as far as brand of oil, we/Dave did switch to Maxima, the Motorex was hard to get in bulk, Motorex is a great oil, just can't get the size we need anymore. I think the biggest thing here is time vs mileage, if you ride 40K a year, having the shock serviced twice in that time period would be okay. If you ride 40k every 4 years, then do a service every 2 years, I would not go longer than 3 years. Also, how you ride matters too, if you are an aggressive rider, canyon carver, this will get the shock working a lot more than just going for a cruise on a nice scenic route or commuting to work. If you are a hard charger, then changing the fluid sooner, will keep the shock performing better.

We have customers that take extra care of their bike, we have customers that beat the living crap out them, no wrong answer here. We feel, taking care of the shock is a good thing, and we can recommend what is best for your situation.

 

[MCRIDER007]

When you refer to the shim stack on the high speed circuit, are you referring to the shims in the reservoir?

 

[Fred W]

I know that the prior discussion has been specific to the rear shocks, but I am interested in what you say about internal corrosion occurring in them and also your opinion that the oil used is a contributing factor. Since the shock is completely sealed, and pressurized with dry nitrogen, I'm not sure where the steel shims' corrosion would be coming from without the presence of H2O. Without oxygen it is hard for metals to oxidize.

Is it possible that some of these oils actually carry some water in them, or that the oils break down and release oxygen somehow?

Also, for use in the front forks specifically, I have been using Motul Very Light. Was that one of the oils that you tested and didn't think it fare so well? If so I will start shopping around for Maxima 5W which is pretty close in viscosity to the Motul and Yamaha 01. I don't need to buy in 55 gallon drums.

 

[user 213]

I know that the prior discussion has been specific to the rear shocks, but I am interested in what you say about internal corrosion occurring in them and also your opinion that the oil used is a contributing factor. Since the shock is completely sealed, and pressurized with dry nitrogen, I'm not sure where the steel shims' corrosion would be coming from without the presence of H2O. Without oxygen it is hard for metals to oxidize.

Is it possible that some of these oils actually carry some water in them, or that the oils break down and release oxygen somehow?

Also, for use in the front forks specifically, I have been using Motul Very Light. Was that one of the oils that you tested and didn't think it fare so well? If so I will start shopping around for Maxima 5W which is pretty close in viscosity to the Motul and Yamaha 01. I don't need to buy in 55 gallon drums.

I was curious about that aspect too. I can see an oil being hygroscopic, and left open to the ambient air, (the test shims?), could end up with some water content in the oil, but I'm having a hard time seeing what is causing corrosion inside the sealed shock.

Are the heat cycles causing the oil to change it's ph value? GP seemed to suggest that the contaminants in the oil were responsible for the corrosion of the shims, but I guess I don't understand where these are coming from. It's not like an ICE that produces exhaust byproducts in the combustion chamber that get into the oil.

 

[MCRIDER007]

I was curious about that aspect too. I can see an oil being hygroscopic, and left open to the ambient air, (the test shims?), could end up with some water content in the oil, but I'm having a hard time seeing what is causing corrosion inside the sealed shock.

Is it truly a sealed unit when the shaft is constantly moving in and out of the shock body?

 

[Fred W]

I was curious about that aspect too. I can see an oil being hygroscopic, and left open to the ambient air, (the test shims?), could end up with some water content in the oil, but I'm having a hard time seeing what is causing corrosion inside the sealed shock.

Is it truly a sealed unit when the shaft is constantly moving in and out of the shock body?

It sure better be, else the oil isn't going to stay in there.

But I see your point. O2 could migrate past the oil seals, but still this seems like a bit of a stretch

 

[Auburn]

I was curious about that aspect too. I can see an oil being hygroscopic, and left open to the ambient air, (the test shims?), could end up with some water content in the oil, but I'm having a hard time seeing what is causing corrosion inside the sealed shock.

Is it truly a sealed unit when the shaft is constantly moving in and out of the shock body?

That is what I was thinking too.

I wonder when the shock cools down after you park the bike, if there might be moisture condensing through the aluminum since it is porous material when you get the temperature difference between the shock and the outside air. The Shock bodies are anodized, but I don't know if that provides a water tight seal or not.

 

[user 213]

The Shock bodies are anodized, but I don't know if that provides a water tight seal or not.

An interesting question. There is an oxide layer as part of the anodizing process. In a vacuum, it will outgas water vapor, but I have no idea if it is truly considered permeable. You can create porous and non-porous anodized coatings depending on what's in the bath, but I believe the typical types of anodizing used for things like automotive and motorcycle parts are non-porous.

 

[GP Suspension]

When you refer to the shim stack on the high speed circuit, are you referring to the shims in the reservoir?

Yes, just behind the floating piston.

 

[Hudson]

Lots of variables to think about when I get the shock back from KFG.

The fronts clearly need service at 10-12k miles. Both times we've done the service, the bushings were worn on both forks, both with the stock forks and the GP upgraded forks. Oil was filthy the first time, but not so bad the second time.

Like Auburn, I have noticed a subtle change in performance over the last 14k miles since the GP upgrade. When I first got it back from GP at 12k miles, with all the new bits, it was razor sharp in handling. It's softened a bit, plus was not sprung for my weight. In fairness, I bought the Ohlins from Achiu, and was hoping it would be correct. We maxed out the rear settings, so I knew I'd have to replace the spring when getting it serviced.

It will be fun to have a completely fresh bike, front and rear. Plus I am replacing tires when we reinstall the rear shock. So a complete reset on all factors. I think I will likely stick to a 15k service interval max for rears, and 10-12k for the fronts mostly due to the bushings. Gen I bikes don't have this bushing wear issue, and can go longer.

Auburn doesn't ride the edge all the time so much as he hauls 2 up with a trailer, putting extra weight on that rear. For him, the 10k service makes sense. At about $300 for the front and rear (he does his own fronts), its about the cost of a set of tires. If I was paying typical shop rates and paying the R&R fees, I might be tempted to add a few miles between services, but I don't think I'd go 20k miles.

The stock shock at 13k miles was a joke. I didn't realize just how sloppy it was until I switched with with escapeartist and rode his mostly stock 06. Night and day. The stock bike was sloppy, cushy, and had me gripping the bars tightly as if to make up for the lack of handling, but actually making it worse. Jumping back to the GP/Ohlins setup was like moving from a Lincoln town car to a Porsche 911.

If I get another bike, suspension upgrades will be one of the first items, along with risers and a seat and PR2s. If you haven't upgraded your FJR suspension, you really have no idea how incredible it can be when properly set up. It really should be one of the first farkles, though for most given the expense, it usually is one of the last. And that's the real shame.

 

[MCRIDER007]

It will be fun to have a completely fresh bike, front and rear. Plus I am replacing tires when we reinstall the rear shock. So a complete reset on all factors. I think I will likely stick to a 15k service interval max for rears, and 10-12k for the fronts mostly due to the bushings. Gen I bikes don't have this bushing wear issue, and can go longer.

If the bushings are really wearing that fast, and I assume you are referring to the bushing at the end of the fork tube, maybe it's time to try not installing the middle bushing since that is the only thing that was new on the GEN II forks. Traxxion does not replace that bushing when installing their AK-20s and Dave told me he did not see that it performed any useful purpose.

 

[Hudson]

Dave told me that the tolerances were much worse for the Gen II forks, which is what he suspected led to he premature wear.

 

[dcarver]

I float the rear shock DIY idea again...

Anyone have clues as to tool investment vs return might be?