ABS Broken - Are all units the same?

[Denver_FJR]

Well,the chief mechanic in the central Yamaha workshop here,is my good friend.Told me that in the most ABS failure issues over of 90% for the 2003-2005 fjr the problem was a burnt coil inside there.In the 10% the problem was a stuck solenoid valve because the owners of this 10% never did a flush refill in the brake system.I don't think that he has a reason to tell me lies..

Do you think the 10% stuck solenoid eventually turns into 90% burnt solenoid coil?

 

[Fred W]

Not to doubt your experienced friend, but I would think that an open solenoid coil would result in an ABS malfunction light.

In the vast majority of the cases we hear about here on the forum, there is never an ABS light or outward indication that the ABS is malfunctioning until you discover the wheels will lock up.

I suspect that the one that I have here is the stuck valves situation as the bike is 10 years old with only 10k miles on the clock. It has signs of being left outdoors in the weather (not that this would directly affect the ABS) and the brake fluid is a lovely shade of black.

 

[Mihalis fjr]

Well,the chief mechanic in the central Yamaha workshop here,is my good friend.Told me that in the most ABS failure issues over of 90% for the 2003-2005 fjr the problem was a burnt coil inside there.In the 10% the problem was a stuck solenoid valve because the owners of this 10% never did a flush refill in the brake system.I don't think that he has a reason to tell me lies..

Do you think the 10% stuck solenoid eventually turns into 90% burnt solenoid coil?

Really don't know,the about 10% hasn't burnt the coil.When they flushed and refilled the brake fluid the ABS unit worked fine.He said that these units have a defective coil and for that reason the Yamaha superseded and sells the units with a new part number as a spare part now,like the windshield motor unit where it had defective electronics in the black box on the motor unit.Also i don't know if a stuck from gummy solenoid can cause burnt coil..

 

[ionbeam]

With some care to step up current in increments, I wonder what popping the solenoids with 24 VDC would do.... perhaps the extra energy would be enough to free the sticking pintle.They should be robust enough to take short shots of higher voltage as long as the voltage isn't applied long enough to make too much heat. Hey, the meter block is already bad.

Edit: Cross post notes -- I have a bad metering block and can test the solenoid coils. Heat is the primary killer of coils but the metering solenoids are active only when ABS is active and that is for a very short time so I'm not on board with bad solenoids just yet, but do have an open mind. 0.001% possibility that a defective manufacturing process may allow the coils to fail by breaking defective electrical bonds.

As far as the new revision metering block, we don't really know what is different, perhaps it is the solenoid pintle seat has changed so it is resistant to sticking...

 

[Mihalis fjr]

Not to doubt your experienced friend, but I would think that an open solenoid coil would result in an ABS malfunction light.
In the vast majority of the cases we hear about here on the forum, there is never an ABS light or outward indication that the ABS is malfunctioning until you discover the wheels will lock up.

I suspect that the one that I have here is the stuck valves situation as the bike is 10 years old with only 10k miles on the clock. It has signs of being left outdoors in the weather (not that this would directly affect the ABS) and the brake fluid is a lovely shade of black.

Fred i don't know how this unit works,i only transfer his words..Perhaps if the solenoid valve has stuck from gummy and can't move,could cause a burn in the coil..?!

 

[infrared]

Hi,Anyway after a butt puckering moment (rear wheel locked) on the way to work this morning I have decided to get my ABS unit sorted.

I understand this is a black box and can't be fixed? The ABS light is not lit up and ABS is not activating

If I am buying second hand - can I get a later model unit? if so which years are the same as the 2003 model (currently on EBay are pumps from 2006 & 2008)?

Cheers

XP@,

At the risk of actually answering the question posted, I see that the 2004-2005 ABS units are the same. In the 2004 Parts Breakdown linked below, click on the Part NAME, and then scroll down to see all the models and years which carry that part. I can find no ABS for the 2003, but I think the 2003 and 2004 are mostly the same bike. Before you buy anything, can you actually find the ABS hardware installed on that bike? On the bike's VIN plate, under the steering head, you can find the actual year of manufacture for the bike (no matter what the paperwork may say).

https://www.2wheelpros.com/oem-parts/2004-yamaha-fjr1300abs-fjr1300as-electrical-3-assembly.html

Cheers,

Infrared

 

[Mihalis fjr]

Hi,Anyway after a butt puckering moment (rear wheel locked) on the way to work this morning I have decided to get my ABS unit sorted.

I understand this is a black box and can't be fixed? The ABS light is not lit up and ABS is not activating

If I am buying second hand - can I get a later model unit? if so which years are the same as the 2003 model (currently on EBay are pumps from 2006 & 2008)?

Cheers

XP@,

At the risk of actually answering the question posted, I see that the 2004-2005 ABS units are the same. In the 2004 Parts Breakdown linked below, click on the Part NAME, and then scroll down to see all the models and years which carry that part. I can find no ABS for the 2003, but I think the 2003 and 2004 are mostly the same bike. Before you buy anything, can you actually find the ABS hardware installed on that bike? On the bike's VIN plate, under the steering head, you can find the actual year of manufacture for the bike (no matter what the paperwork may say).

https://www.2wheelpros.com/oem-parts/2004-yamaha-fjr1300abs-fjr1300as-electrical-3-assembly.html

Cheers,

Infrared

The European 2003 fjr is the 2004 US fjr..Have a look in this four pages link..

https://www.yamaha-motor.eu/designcafe/en/index.aspx?segment=Sport%20Touring&view=article&id=442654

 

[ionbeam]

...At the risk of actually answering the question..I can find no ABS for the 2003, but I think the 2003 and 2004 are mostly the same bike...

The USA '03 was not ABS equipped and it would be darn hard and expensive to retrofit it.

The 'black box' would be the ABS ECU (Electronic Control Unit) and it is not repairable. The ABS hydraulic pressure control unit, casually called a metering block here, is not serviceable either. The way the block is constructed it is a destructive process to get to the guts. You want a Gen I metering block with either the old or preferably new P/N.

 

[rPGoatBoy]

...At the risk of actually answering the question..I can find no ABS for the 2003, but I think the 2003 and 2004 are mostly the same bike...

The USA '03 was not ABS equipped and it would be darn hard and expensive to retrofit it.

The 'black box' would be the ABS ECU (Electronic Control Unit) and it is not repairable. The ABS hydraulic pressure control unit, casually called a metering block here, is not serviceable either. The way the block is constructed it is a destructive process to get to the guts. You want a Gen I metering block with either the old or preferably new P/N.

Pricks. I hate when manufacturers do that ****.

 

[Fred W]

Made my inspections today, flushed some fresh DOT4 through the lines, and ran the diagnostics.

It sounds like it is doing everything right (I have experience running the diags on a functional ABS). You can hear the pump motor spin up and you can hear and feel the solenoids activating. There is pulsation at the lever and at the pedal, but it is not as great as a normal bike, and the wheel can not be turned by hand during the pulsing phase (which it should). On the front wheel you can actually feel a little vibration in the wheel and with a hand on the caliper, but no rotation. On the back there is nothing, not even vibration with your hand on the caliper.

Measuring resistance of the two solenoid coils they both measure 3.2 ohms, which is normal, so it doesn't appear that the solenoids are open or shorted. It didn't seem they weren't actuating either, from both the sound and pulsation. Something else is jammed up inside the block that is preventing the hydraulic pressure from being released when the solenoid actuates.

And of course, no ABS errors. (I checked and there is an ABS error code for the open or shorted solenoid coil winding)

From what I've read on here previously, this is the "typical" failure mode of these things

I've posted a "wanted" ad in the classifieds to see if anyone here has a line on one they could be talked out of.

 

[Mihalis fjr]

I am very very curious what the heck is going wrong inside this @$#%@ box..if the solenoid coils are ok??!!

 

[ionbeam]

I am very very curious what the heck is going wrong inside this @$#%@ box..if the solenoid coils are ok??!!

For illustration purposes this is a solenoid with a pintle:

The bullet point is part of the pintle. The point seats into a hole in the hydraulic fluid passage and blocks the passage from fluid flow. When the coil of the solenoid is powered, it generates a magnetic field that pulls the pintle into the body of the solenoid which unblocks the hydraulic fluid passage and lets brake fluid flow. The ABS ECU can simply pull the pintle into the body and let 100% of the brake fluid flow through the passage, or it can turn the solenoid on and off very quickly to modulate the fluid flow.

The solenoid shown is just a visual aid, the solenoid and pintle in the ABS metering block will be different, but this shows how it works.

[speculation] The pintle has corroded and is stuck in the bore, even when the coil is energized the magnetic field is not strong enough to overcome and break the corrosion, so the pintle does not move or moves very little. [/speculation] This is why in earlier posts I suggested using an anti-seize fluid to dissolve the corrosion or using a 24 volt power supply to create a stronger magnetic field, thereby making a stronger force on the pintle. As long as the 24 volts is applied in very short pulses, then a significant pause, then pulsed again, it should not harm the solenoid.

 

[Constant Mesh]

The sliding spool portion (flow control valve) of the assembly is not moving when the solenoid valve opens. I'm assuming the spool is a somewhat long cylinder with through ports for the fluid to flow. It would appear that it has a lot of surface area exposed to the stationary brick assembly. Its cross-section may not be round -- probably don't want any rotation as it moves, ports have to be aligned correctly.

The spool won't move at all or enough to align the fluid ports to divert the flow.

One might break loose the spool if a larger than normal pressure was introduced while the solenoid valve was energized and open.

A cross-section of the assembly is shown on page 66 of my 2004 Supplementary Service Manual.

That may be the failure mode for these things -- any significant additional friction between the spool and the brick stops the spool from moving.

 

[jeremyr62]

I know this won't help to fix the malfunctioning systems but regular use of the ABS is surely one way to hopefully prevent the solenoids sticking. I make sure I activate the ABS regularly. Back is easy, front takes a bit of courage but you get used to to it. I do this with my car too.

 

[Mihalis fjr]

I think that the only way to learn the truth of what really goes wrong inside this thing,is someone to open his defective unit since he has purchased a new one..

 

[Fred W]

Agreed. For one thing we are speculating about how the spool valve is configured.

But from the sound and feel of the control block when being exercised I can say with relative certainty that the solenoid is actuating and something is moving. The fact that this movement doesn't release the fluid pressure is for sure. Why that happens is what we need to determine

 

[rPGoatBoy]

Just checked the pricing, and the '08 and newer units are between $500 and $600, '07 and older are over a thousand. They also look different in the exploded parts diagrams.

 

[Denver_FJR]

Just checked the pricing, and the '08 and newer units are between $500 and $600, '07 and older are over a thousand. They also look different in the exploded parts diagrams.

That's particularly interesting since the 60-0 braking performance of the '06-07 bikes was fairly mediocre.

 

[Mihalis fjr]

Agreed. For one thing we are speculating about how the spool valve is configured. But from the sound and feel of the control block when being exercised I can say with relative certainty that the solenoid is actuating and something is moving. The fact that this movement doesn't release the fluid pressure is for sure. Why that happens is what we need to determine

Agreed,the solenoid can be moved, but what we do not know is if the rod with it's conical end of the solenoid can be moved?Broken,stuck or a something like that..

If you see at the service manual,at the opposite of the solenoid valve has a plunger where depending the opening and closing of the valve it moved and opening and closing some lines for the brake fluid.If the solenoid works i am pretty sure that this plunger has stuck in the normal mode from the immobility or from some gummy or corroded.From what i see it hasn't something other inside there..If this happened the problem is how you can winkle out it?Perhaps with brake/contact cleaner like this:i use it for years and it is safe for rubber,plastics..

https://www.belray.com/bel-ray-brake-contact-cleaner

 

[pista]

Unfortunitely I joined this club today, my ABS quit working. At least the rear one did as I've never tested the front.

I have an '05 with 18,000 miles and have tested the rear ABS at least weekly.

This morning I once again mashed the pedal fully expecting the "clack,clack,clack" sound and the pulsing of the system. Instead the rear stepped out and I slid about 10' on the asphalt pavement before it occured to me that I now have a non-functioning ABS. (This was the same motion that as a kid I practiced doing on my 20" huffy with coaster brakes...slam on the brakes and kick the rear of the bike out)

Figuring it to be some kind of anomoly I repeat the process about a half mile later on a concrete section. This time the tire squeals for a moment as it locks up and I release the pedal immediately to prevent flat spotting the tire.

No ABS light. No code.

Time for a new ABS block...