ABS? Grab a Handful!

[JimLor]

I absolutely agree with cougar8000 that "progressively squeezing and not slamming" is proper braking technique and is what every rider should learn and use. Unfortunately, during PANIC stops the brain doesn't have the time to process the necessary "proper technique" signals and relay them to the hand/foot. PANIC assumes a "stop now or die" situation/reaction and "slamming" is the survival instinct. That's when ABS is worth its weight in gold - in my humble opinion.

Yes, in theory you can train yourself to a fine point so that even during PANIC stops you'll use "proper" technique - do what you're trained to do without thinking. I would submit that that level of time/effort/training is well beyond what even hard core street riders have the time to train to. I know the proper braking technique and I use it - however, I'm glad that I have ABS so that in cases where my training isn't "ingrained" I can have that safety net to fall back on.

That's what I think.

 

[Kevin Daly]

I didnt read all the responses on this thread but i thought I would weight in because no one appears to be questioning the validity of "this particular" study. Up front, I dont have ABS but would love to have it.

A fundamental flaw I noticed in the study was that in the experienced rider group, they measured deceleration of the ABS bike versus the experienced riders bikes (with no ABS). The problem with this is that you have no clear idea of what those bikes are. As experienced riders my bet is that they all had at least as big a bike as the test bike more likely many of them had heavier/different bikes. The only mention i found in the article of differences between bikes was this statement : "No correlation between type of motorcycle and deceleration parameters could be detected" and some introductory information about the bikes of novices. As someone who has owned several bikes, "no differences between bikes" is a crock! As a peer reviewing scientist I would reject this article on the basis that that the conditions are not comparable as presented; is the bike better at stopping becasue it has ABS or for any of a number of weight, suspension and non-abs brake factors. They should have had an ABS and non-ABS version of that bike and compared that. Such studies have been done (i recall reading one from BMW) and I am sure one or more of the other posts lists that writeup.

Again, I do believe that ABS is a great piece of technology and I would love to have it on my bike (I will get it on my next bike for sure), but I just cant stand bad science!

 

[Scythian]

"No correlation between type of motorcycle and deceleration parameters could be detected" and some introductory information about the bikes of novices. As someone who has owned several bikes, "no differences between bikes" is a crock! As a peer reviewing scientist I would reject this article on the basis that that the conditions are not comparable as presented; is the bike better at stopping becasue it has ABS or for any of a number of weight, suspension and non-abs brake factors.

As a "peer reviewing scientist", I'm surprised you use a personal anecdote to try to impeach a finding.

I can see where there could be 'no difference between type of motorcycle and deceleration parameters in this study': overall the more experienced bikers commonly ride heavier bikes and have better braking technique--skewing deceleration/bike data....

Besides, you missed the part where they used two control bikes (well, a scooter and a bike) for the study.

Really, did anyone bother to actually read study!?

From the MSF website:

Two technical developments have sought to simplify braking control and provide more effective braking. Linked braking slows both wheels with a single control. Antilock braking systems (ABS) allow the rider to apply maximum braking force without fear of wheel lock-up and the resulting loss of control, providing the bike is not leaned over. Under many pavement conditions, antilock brake systems allow the rider to stop a motorcycle more rapidly while maintaining steering control even during situations of extreme, panic braking.
Although incidental and first-hand experience indicates either of these systems can be effective in countering the problems faced by a motor-cyclist in a panic stop, we know of no research that shows how they perform in the field compared with similar bikes fitted with standard brake systems. The added costs (particularly for ABS) andreluctance to accept them by some experienced motorcyclists have limited the adoption of these potentially effective systems.

Maximum braking force does not imply 'progressively sqeezing the brakes'. Progressively squeezing the brakes is wonderful technique and all of that, but based on studies, 'progressive braking' will not stop you as quickly as applying maximum braking force and trusting the ABS on the bike.

Furthermore, as with the Austrian study I posted in this thread, this quote from the MSF website admits that the problem with ABS use and adoption is with the 'experienced riders' not adapting to new technology.

Heck, the MSF website admits: "We really don't know how to teach, or what to do with ABS...."

I stand my my contention

 

[Scythian]

I assure you, based on my discussions with a 'Certified MSF Instructor' on this very site, they have no idea what it does or how to use it.If you have and FJR with ABS, practice the feel of stopping with ABS by rudely stomping on the back brake and pulling hard on the front. Soon you will feel confident and be able to engage the ABS on the front as well.It is smarter than the rider.

Are you suggesting that it's better to develop a HABIT of "rudely stomping" and "pulling hard" rather than applying both brakes with smooth progressive pressure under panic conditions!? That habit may work on your ABS now, but God help you if you ever ride a non-ABS bike and have to brake hard.

Just because we teach skills and develop habits that can be used on any motorcycle doesn't mean we ""have no idea what it does or how to use it". In a panic situation, you rely on the skills and habits you've developed. I happen to think "rudely stomping" and "pulling hard" isn't something I should be teaching new riders.

ABS is a safety net, not a tool.

How did you miss the work 'practice' in my statement?

Did you bother to read the study?

It's for ABS only.... This thread? ABS specific. My current bike? ABS.

I guess your students can congratulate themselves on using good braking technique as they progressively brake right into an obstacle because they were never taught proper ABS (hammer 'em!) panic braking.

 

[Scythian]

Here is a good article that describes on a proper braking.
https://www.motorcyclecruiser.com/streetsur...vanced_braking/

https://www.ehow.com/how_5251_brake-properly-motorcycle.html

https://www.whybike.com/motorcycle219.htm

They all agree on progressively squeezing and not slamming.

They all also have nothing at all to do with panic stopping a bike with ABS. They don't even mention it....

 

[Scythian]

Personally I would even question putting a newb on an ABS bike. It would give them a falls sense of security and will allow them to learn an improper technique.

"Why, I'd rather see them die than learn to activate the ABS in panic stops."

 

[exskibum]

:jerry:

 

[FJRMGM]

I diasgree with this --- "Maximum braking force does not imply 'progressively sqeezing the brakes'."

I can apply maximum braking force while progressively squeezing the brakes until they won't go any further or harder - I just don't "slam the brakes" with maximum squeeze initially.

Slamming the front brake will always upset the vehicle dynamics not matter if there is ABS or not.

And, as stated above, ABS is NOT the save-all in all situations, especially if the bike is leaned at all.

 

[cougar8000]

Personally I would even question putting a newb on an ABS bike. It would give them a falls sense of security and will allow them to learn an improper technique.

"Why, I'd rather see them die than learn to activate the ABS in panic stops."

I think this is the turning point in this discussion. You are starting to turn and twist what people are saying. This is where I say Good day Sir. My point has been driven and those who will read it will hopefully figure out what is the right thing to do.

 

[v65]

Slamming the front brake will always upset the vehicle dynamics not matter if there is ABS or not.

Not sure what you mean by upset, I start every riding season with a practice session on the brakes. Its pretty simple really

1) Locate suitable parking lot.

2) Accelerate to 40mph.

3) Grab brakes as hard as you want.

4) Stop in very straight line perfectly upright in an incredibly short time.

5) Go home and ice the family jewels.

The bike nose dives some, under that kind of braking pressure that's no surprise, but I wouldn't describe the vehicle dynamics as upset.

 

[exskibum]

Slamming the front brake will always upset the vehicle dynamics not matter if there is ABS or not.

Not sure what you mean by upset, I start every riding season with a practice session on the brakes. Its pretty simple really

1) Locate suitable parking lot.

2) Accelerate to 40mph.

3) Grab brakes as hard as you want.

4) Stop in very straight line perfectly upright in an incredibly short time.

5) Go home and ice the family jewels.

The bike nose dives some, under that kind of braking pressure that's no surprise, but I wouldn't describe the vehicle dynamics as upset.

I'll offer that doing that in a straight line is one thing, doing it while leaned over (ABS or not) is ANOTHER. It's GOING to stand the bike up and take it outside. I sure won't ride with anyone who does that sort of thing (not suggesting you do), and some of these guys have a point: if a newb learns only to grab a handful, as if ABS is a substitute for learning finesse, I want no part of riding with him/her.

You don't really have that problem in an ABS equiped car; you just stand on the ABS and steer it over the slippery part with your foot on the brake hard -- it won't skid, you can steer it effectively, and you stop reasonably fast. In a straight line stop on a bike, I can see why grabbing ABS brakes hard works well (and have had my ABS activate more than once, esp. the rear), but I damn sure am not going to deal with sand, gravel, water or another obstacle (moving or not) on the roadway in a mountain corner by grabbing a handful before or at the apex. He who does may stop faster than me, but it might be the guardrail that stops him while I'm carving through the next corner.

 

[Scythian]

My point has been driven and those who will read it will hopefully figure out what is the right thing to do.

That is my belief as well: to understand that pedantry cannot save their bacon, but ABS may..

 

[Scythian]

Slamming the front brake will always upset the vehicle dynamics not matter if there is ABS or not.

"Upset the vehicle dynamics"? WTF? It's a panic stop.

ABS isn't going to upset your vehicle dynamics as much as the obstacle you hit 'cuz you were afraid of activating the ABS.

Really, did you read the study I posted?

 

[Scythian]

but I damn sure am not going to deal with sand, gravel, water or another obstacle (moving or not) on the roadway in a mountain corner by grabbing a handful before or at the apex. He who does may stop faster than me, but it might be the guardrail that stops him while I'm carving through the next corner.

and if my front tire was on a woodchuck and back tire on a possum you can be damn sure I wouldn't grab a handful of brakes at the apex. He might stop faster, but it might be the rabid squirrel at the bottom of the cliff that stops him while I have a margarita.

And of course I would never grab a handful of brakes while I was roast beef carving around a corner in a french fry oil spill!

 

[exskibum]

WTF?? This actually started as an interesting thread. Not sure why one felt the need to make this personal and insulting. So FINE -- have it your way: you're superior to, smarter than and a better rider than everyone else.

 

[Scythian]

WTF?? This actually started as an interesting thread. Not sure why one felt the need to make this personal and insulting. So FINE -- have it your way: you're superior to, smarter than and a better rider than everyone else.

Was it the woodchuck comment?

 

[FJRMGM]

Slamming the front brake will always upset the vehicle dynamics not matter if there is ABS or not.

"Upset the vehicle dynamics"? WTF? It's a panic stop.

ABS isn't going to upset your vehicle dynamics as much as the obstacle you hit 'cuz you were afraid of activating the ABS.

Really, did you read the study I posted?

Why yes, I did read it. And other books like "Going Faster" that discuss how the front suspension on any vehicle is loaded and the back suspension is unloaded when SLAMMING on the brakes. It's called "physics" and works the same way every time. You know, action and reaction kinda stuff.

The study you posted never once said "Now SLAM the brakes as hard as you can". And none ever will.

And this is a perfect example of upsetting the vehicle dynamics - "The bike nose dives some, under that kind of braking pressure that's no surprise, but I wouldn't describe the vehicle dynamics as upset."

 

[JimLor]

That's funny (Was it the woodchuck comment?)

Seems like we're mixing PANIC stops with normal braking practices here.

Sorry to interupt, please continue...

 

[Scythian]

Why yes, I did read it. And other books like "Going Faster" that discuss how the front suspension on any vehicle is loaded and the back suspension is unloaded when SLAMMING on the brakes.

OK: So, in a panic stop (which is all we are/have been talking about) will you stop faster by

1) hammering the brakes and activating the ABS?

2) progressively squeezing the brakes and not activating the ABS?

3) progressively squeezing the brakes until ABS activates and then backing off until it deactivates?

or

4) progressively squeezing the brakes until ABS activates and remains activated until you stop?

Choose wisely.

 

[FJRMGM]

I'd go with option 4 - but it would not be an instant FULL pressure squeeze on the brakes.

What everyone has been trying to say is that "hammering" the brakes in less than bike fully upright position can cause bad things to happen.

Maybe we just have different definitions of the word "hammering"?