ABS? Grab a Handful!

[Scythian]

Personally, I have little difficulty getting the rear tire off the ground on dry surfaces that is the moment of maximum breaking (sic) I dont care if you have ABS (did i (sic) mention i(sic) dont(sic) have ABS). break (sic) any harder and you will be buyin (sic) a new bike.

Good thing you don't have ABS! Apparently that stuff is dangerous and only lulls riders to their doom!
I don't see that any of your nitpicks with the study obviate the findings: Heck, we've seen those findings replicated here: the more experienced riders here on this forum don't trust ABS to provide maximum deceleration....

Do you think you would try harder if a brick wall suddenly appeared (bet you would)

Certainly! And with ABS, you would stop faster if you hammered them than if you 'progressively braked' with either conventional brakes or ABS. That's been my argument all along.

 

[Scythian]

So go ahead and fool yourself about your superiority while the rest of us point and laugh. Hope you have a good day.

“The Roots of Violence: Wealth without work, Woodchucks without finesse, Pleasure without conscience, Panic stops without ABS, Knowledge without character, Strawmen without straw, Commerce without morality, Science without humanity, Worship without sacrifice, Politics without principles” -- M.K. Gandhi

Yeah, quote yer Gandhi man...the spirit of all your posts in this thread definitely stand in stark contrast to his reputation.

Regarding straightline panic stops, although I don't have an abs bike, I have tended to agree with you. You may be right - but if you are...you sure have been an *** about it on your posts in this thread.

But it's not my Ghandi quote. I can't really imagine that Ghandi said anything about woodchucks or ABS, do you? I only adulterated exskibum's quote (above my post) it for the sake of innocent humor, but you missed that. I don't even like that perverted wog.

I like dealing with other motorcyclists ('specially 'instructors') about as much as I like dealing with gun-store guys....

 

[Kevin Daly]

If I had to choose, I'd rather have the finesse braking control than proper ABS technique -- I've had a LOT more demand for that over the last 42 years on bikes (and not just because I've only owned an ABS bike for 27 months).

Even if proper ABS technique could stop you faster, in a panic stop, on your ABS equipped bike? How odd....

Not sure what all the flailing and insults are about. I thought there were good points about both ABS activation and finesse, but didn't get the gratuitous slap at MSF instructors.

M'eh... Largely baggage from a previous thread: the MSF instructors would also rather teach progressive braking in a straightline panic stop even if ABS could stop you faster--it's advice to the lowest common denominator that I object to.

That's why this study was so interesting: it showed that the reluctance of experienced motorcyclists to trust their ABS increased their stopping distances needlessly.

So I am still reading through this thread and laughing. OK so lets just restrict the argument to dry pavement straight line breaking now instrad of you hitting the break lever your hit a panic stop button which drives a pneumatic piston that "instantly" activates the ABS. this is the extreme version or your argument. On any bike with an agressively raked front end, race replicas, FJRs etc (not crusers or choppers). When your wise friends suggest that this will "upset the suspension" they are absolutely right and the result will be that you are going to go over the handel bars.

I would like to hear opinions from some of the dudes that actually race or raced. Now if I could find the article i refered to in my first post is shows that under these conditions a highly experienced rider (one with track racing experience) will be able to out stop ABS under these conditons in an experiment where they simply disabled the ABS on an ABS bike.

PS, as far as I can tell (though i am not as good at reading as you) I didnt see anywhere in that study that they measured or otherwise showed "the reluctance of experienced motorcyclists"

Hmm... I know it aint friday but I smell popcorn (seriously, my wife just poped some for the kids).

 

[S76]

OK, this looks like a fun thread to respond to, but I don't know if I should comment on ABS techniques, non ABS techniques, posting techniques, or personal experience...yeah, that's it, personal experience:

I have ridden dirt bikes most of my life. Enduro, MotoX etc. and now having only been on the road a few years I find I have some disturbing tendencies. Like.....I'm riding the FJR, and get into a decreasing radius corner fast enough that the brain goes into adrenaline (panic) mode. So I bend the bike way over, (because it's too late to slow down much) hoping for the best. The next thing I know my left foot is about ripped off my body, trailing the footpeg by 2 feet waving wildly in the air. Now, I am in a corner too fast, sitting crooked and wobbling my way through the apex. Not a pretty sight!

Well, I made the corner, but what happened mid turn was a total suprise to me. When I got into the "panic mode" part of the corner all those years of dirt just popped out in a subconscious second and I stabbed the ground with my left foot in a panic response at about 50 MPH. This is a typical, normal, acceptable, thing to do on a dirt bike if it starts to slide out while hammering a U-turn berm at 25 MPH with the rear tire spinning, but on the street it looses most of it's flavor. Now I am sure it sounds ridiculous that a person would do this, but I have done it twice so far and I am not totally sure I won't do it again!

The point to all this is:

You can sit here sipping and typing and theorizing all you want, but in a panic situation you sometimes just don't know what your brain may do. Will you have the presence of mind to execute the perfect stop, taking into consideration the bike loading, road/tire temperature, proximity to an intersection that may contain more oil on the road than a wide open area, and the presence of mind to overcome the adrenaline and not bend the brake lever in half, etc. etc. etc.? To be perfectly honest I doubt I could every time. And that is the beauty of ABS! It is not a substitute for good braking skills, but it is the Cats *** when it comes to making up for our shortcomings.

 

[Kevin Daly]

“The Roots of Violence: Wealth without work, Woodchucks without finesse, Pleasure without conscience, Panic stops without ABS, Knowledge without character, Strawmen without straw, Commerce without morality, Science without humanity, Worship without sacrifice, Politics without principles” -- M.K. Gandhi

Dude your really pushing it your quoting a Gandhi on ABS? Man he was dead long before ABS :clapping:

 

[Scythian]

So I am still reading through this thread and laughing.

That's a good thing.

OK so lets just restrict the argument to dry pavement straight line breaking

That's all I ever thought we were discussing.

now instrad of you hitting the break lever your hit a panic stop button which drives a pneumatic piston that "instantly" activates the ABS. this is the extreme version or your argument. On any bike with an agressively raked front end, race replicas, FJRs etc (not crusers or choppers). When your wise friends suggest that this will "upset the suspension" they are absolutely right and the result will be that you are going to go over the handel bars.

I don't believe that for an instant.

I have empirical, though anecdotal evidence: I've done it. Yep, I took my life in my hands and grabbed the ABS brakes, front and rear at once--I was thrown hard onto the handle bars, but the rear did not leave the ground. I stopped very fast and very safely.

I would like to hear opinions from some of the dudes that actually race or raced.

What for!? Those guys know less about ABS than I do: they don't have it on their race bikes.

Now if I could find the article i refered to in my first post is shows that under these conditions a highly experienced rider (one with track racing experience) will be able to out stop ABS under these conditons in an experiment where they simply disabled the ABS on an ABS bike.

I would like to see such a study. All the studies I have read show just the opposite.

 

[Kevin Daly]

Personally, I have little difficulty getting the rear tire off the ground on dry surfaces that is the moment of maximum breaking (sic) I dont care if you have ABS (did i (sic) mention i(sic) dont(sic) have ABS). break (sic) any harder and you will be buyin (sic) a new bike.

Good thing you don't have ABS! Apparently that stuff is dangerous and only lulls riders to their doom!I don't see that any of your nitpicks with the study obviate the findings: Heck, we've seen those findings replicated here: the more experienced riders here on this forum don't trust ABS to provide maximum deceleration....

Do you think you would try harder if a brick wall suddenly appeared (bet you would)

Certainly! And with ABS, you would stop faster if you hammered them than if you 'progressively braked' with either conventional brakes or ABS. That's been my argument all along.

Dude,

Your just too defensive to be rational. Perhaps you should actually read some Ghandi I have said on at least 2 post in this thread that I would have ABS over non-ABS so all of your "sic"-en-ing attempts to take what I wrote out of context only establishes your inablilty to conceede to the wisdom that the fine people on the fourm are trying to enlighten you with; clearly you are not in a position, to be enlightened.

The fact that the study is bogus does not change the fact that ABS IS better at in line breaking particularly on low traction surfaces/conditions than non-ABS sic. ABS IS BETTER. I have not seen one person on this thread argue that ABS is a disadvantage, have you? Who? You say "I don't see that any of your nitpicks with the study obviate the findings" Well grasshopper, that is because you believe that, becuase you read an article carefully, this means you read it critically. Furthermore, I have also not nitpicked the study, just read it critically and found that it failed to show what it said it showed to the exclusion of other possibilities, what has actually been shown several times before. Why are you so defensive about this article? you the author? I will look for the article I refered to so that you can refer to it instead.

 

[Kevin Daly]

Food for thought. click here

 

[James]

Yes, in theory you can train yourself to a fine point so that even during PANIC stops you'll use "proper" technique - do what you're trained to do without thinking. I would submit that that level of time/effort/training is well beyond what even hard core street riders have the time to train to.

That's what I think.

I think most riders can train themselves to that point, but the question is will they have done it before they need to use the skills. And most don't ride enough to pick it up on their own, without deliberate practice and/or training. And most don't do that. So a vote for ABS if available for the bike of choice.

James

 

[Scythian]

Food for thought. click here

Hey! Nice find, thanks.--

6. I am now a worshipper of ABS brakes. If anyone tells me they have a problem with them, I'll openly declare them an *****. I know from experience now that in a panic situation, there is no such thing as "carefully modulating the brakes." If you think you're going to rear-end someone at 40+ mph and you have less than a second to stop, you WILL grab that front brake for all you're worth. The result? Of 4 bikes, 3 had ABS brakes and one didn't. Guess which bike ended up doing a stoppie and falling?

He's a 'hammer them' convert as well....

only establishes your inablilty to conceede to the wisdom that the fine people on the fourm are trying to enlighten you with; clearly you are not in a position, to be enlightened.

I have given out (and taken) so much poop on this thread that I'm not sure what people are trying to enlighten me about....Can you 'splain it on me again?My whole point was: in straight line panic stops, ABS stops you faster than modulating non-ABS brakes, so don't modulate them either, hammer them on and let them bang away until you stop.I'm incredulous that anyone would argue against that. However, it was the more experienced riders that argued most against that point--reinforcing the point of the study. It's not that bad of a study. It could be better, but it supports the findings (and nothing more).

Yes, in theory you can train yourself to a fine point so that even during PANIC stops you'll use "proper" technique - do what you're trained to do without thinking. I would submit that that level of time/effort/training is well beyond what even hard core street riders have the time to train to. That's what I think.I think most riders can train themselves to that point, but the question is will they have done it before they need to use the skills. And most don't ride enough to pick it up on their own, without deliberate practice and/or training. And most don't do that. So a vote for ABS if available for the bike of choice. James

But even if you train yourself to modulate the brake so that the ABS doesn't kick in, the ABS will stop you faster (yes, talking straight line upright panic stop). So why are you wasting all that valuable braking time trying to modulate something that is built to modulate the brakes safely and rapidly for you?Grab a handful and trust it....

 

[Kevin Daly]

Ok grasshopper,

I found the article I was refering to. note that unlike the other article they use the same ABS bikes and disable the ABS allowing a direct comparison. click here

as for splaining to you da' prollem...

1) Use of terms like slam, crush or whatever dejour term suggesting a crude bruit use of brakes in an "emergency stop" (my word) is missleading less experienced riders into simply slaming the breaks on: Dangeruous advice for the noob's. I say emergency becuase I guess I dont really panic. I ride till it stops; panic is what a deer does when it freezes in the road in front of a Mack truck.

2) In my case defending that article is just foolish. We all know ABS can do a lot better in many situations but you came off sounding like it was a panacea: its not and its not in a number of cases which leads to point 3..

3) One must learn how to apply breaks. You said this too but your bruit force philosophy about ABS braking (and arguing without hearing) was again very suggestive that "slam'em on and turst" was the only thing you need to learn. Like several people said, in a pinch you revert to habits; if your in a corner and a deer pops out, as I read your comments, you would "slam'em on and turst;" that will introduce you to the sausage creature!

hope that helps

 

[Scythian]

Ok grasshopper, I found the article I was refering to. note that unlike the other article they use the same ABS bikes and disable the ABS allowing a direct comparison. click here

as for splaining to you da' prollem...

1) Use of terms like slam, crush or whatever dejour term suggesting a crude bruit use of brakes in an "emergency stop" (my word) is missleading less experienced riders into simply slaming the breaks on: Dangeruous advice for the noob's. I say emergency becuase I guess I dont really panic. I ride till it stops; panic is what a deer does when it freezes in the road in front of a Mack truck.

2) In my case defending that article is just foolish. We all know ABS can do a lot better in many situations but you came off sounding like it was a panacea: its not and its not in a number of cases which leads to point 3..

3) One must learn how to apply breaks. You said this too but your bruit force philosophy about ABS braking (and arguing without hearing) was again very suggestive that "slam'em on and turst" was the only thing you need to learn. Like several people said, in a pinch you revert to habits; if your in a corner and a deer pops out, as I read your comments, you would "slam'em on and turst;" that will introduce you to the sausage creature!

hope that helps

Thanks again! That's a great study!

Didja notice that the "Full ABS Control" Meaning:

"For our comparisons we added the category "Full ABS Control" - and it means just that. At the beginning braking marker, riders jumped on the brakes as hard as possible, relinquishing control to the computers. "

(In other words, "slam'em on and turst") improved the stopping distances on wet pavement by over 100 feet!

And "slam'em on and turst" improved the stopping distance by about 20 feet overall over the dry pavement with a sewer cover?

Just looking at that data, what advice would you give someone with an ABS bike?

 

[v65]

Slamming the front brake will always upset the vehicle dynamics not matter if there is ABS or not.

Not sure what you mean by upset, I start every riding season with a practice session on the brakes. Its pretty simple really

1) Locate suitable parking lot.

2) Accelerate to 40mph.

3) Grab brakes as hard as you want.

4) Stop in very straight line perfectly upright in an incredibly short time.

5) Go home and ice the family jewels.

The bike nose dives some, under that kind of braking pressure that's no surprise, but I wouldn't describe the vehicle dynamics as upset.

I'll offer that doing that in a straight line is one thing, doing it while leaned over (ABS or not) is ANOTHER.

Just to be clear I never said it wouldn't, just was didn't like the use of the word always. I'll go back to being a spectator again, this thread is too much fun for me.

 

[Kevin Daly]

Thanks again! That's a great study!Didja notice that the "Full ABS Control" Meaning:

"For our comparisons we added the category "Full ABS Control" - and it means just that. At the beginning braking marker, riders jumped on the brakes as hard as possible, relinquishing control to the computers. "

(In other words, "slam'em on and turst") improved the stopping distances on wet pavement by over 100 feet!

And "slam'em on and turst" improved the stopping distance by about 20 feet overall over the dry pavement with a sewer cover?

Just looking at that data, what advice would you give someone with an ABS bike?

Actually, you will notice that ABS doesnt always out perform. On dry pavement and inline stops (the conditions described in your article) two riders out performed the "full ABS control" but yes in inline low traction conditions ABS, any way you grab ABS is better than even a pro racer without; no one was arguing that this wouldnt be the case.

So what advice would I give a novice rider who just bought an ABS bike? Practice, read, take classes and otherwise obsess about riding. Understand how changing conditions require a change in tactics. I would not tell them to slam it cram it or otherwise jam it unless they wanted to flippity flam it

 

[JimLor]

"Yes, in theory you can train yourself to a fine point so that even during PANIC stops you'll use "proper" technique - do what you're trained to do without thinking. I would submit that that level of time/effort/training is well beyond what even hard core street riders have the time to train to.

That's what I think."

James - that was my quote and I disagree with you that most of us can/do train to that level. I think there's a very clear delineation between "normal" braking and "panic or survival" braking situations. I've had one of the later and other than having the time to say, "Oh ****," my brain didn't do any thinking about proper braking technique, etc - I grabbed and tromped. I likewise don't believe you can "train" for panic stops - yes, you can simulate, set conditions, etc, but what will always be missing is the, well, the "panic" element of the panic stop. To train yourself to act in a certain way during panic situations is often times to train to counter your instincts - when you get to a panic situation your instincts are what you operate on, not clear, thoughtful reason. Not impossible, but I don't think very likely for the vast majority of us here. That's why I think ABS is a good, useful technology.

Here's my quote of the day: "To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture." - Thomas Paine

DISCLAIMER - this quote is general in nature and not "aimed" at anyone!

 

[Murph]

I was going to post this yesterday but I thought "Why bother?" But I just cannot take it anymore.

This thread reminds me of the saying that goes something like this ... Those convinced against their will are of the same opinion still.

Hasn't this gone far enough?!!? I propose a beating for anybody else that posts in this thread and includes ... in any way whatsoever ... those 3 letters that are at the root of the controversy "A...B....S"

 

[Checkswrecks]

Ooooh beat me with fairing material*, you big bully!



(*Acrylonitrile Butadiene Styrene, or ABS for short)

 

[JimLor]

Ahhhh, we're now in Stage VI, the "I challenge ************ with physical threats" stage. A throwback to Stage I albiet with an implied physical component. Can be a very exciting stage, especially on the net as there is very little danger of the antagonists actually meeting and making good on implied or specified threats. Let's sit back and see how this one plays out....

 

[Kevin Daly]

Other than some defensive snippieness (actually from several folks), I actually think that we clairified some important points here. Perhaps none of the posters were convinced of anything, I dont know but at least the process has clarified my thoughts on the issue of ABS and grabbing a handful. The real question is whether there are noob's lurking and reading this discussion that are learning anything. Who knows maybe someone found a new article that they hadent read before and will go buy ABS now.-k

Ahhhh, we're now in Stage VI, the "I challenge ************ with physical threats" stage. A throwback to Stage I albiet with an implied physical component. Can be a very exciting stage, especially on the net as there is very little danger of the antagonists actually meeting and making good on implied or specified threats. Let's sit back and see how this one plays out....

 

[Murph]

Ooooh beat me with fairing material*, you big bully!

(*Acrylonitrile Butadiene Styrene, or ABS for short)

:lol: