ABS vs NON ABS

[jcd]

Good morning to all,

This started to get discussed elsewhere so I figured put it where it can best be used. I know it will go back and forth and up and down and left and right without solution, but in the interest of the first amendment, write on and agree to disagree.

Here is where it started:

'JCD'

I lowered my brake pedal just enough so that I have to really do a ballet stance to lock up the rear brakes (That one is perfect now)

'charismaticmegafauna'

Good move (many demanded ABS as a solution...}

'JCD'

Hawdy

ABS does have its place for some but I can't really say that I'm ready to give up brake control to electronics just yet for the kind of rider that I am. Excellent arguments can certainly be made for both sides. It has been demonstrated that ABS has not reduced the severity of the crashes but it does reduce their number, in a deceptive way if you ask me. All tests I'm aware about were done in the same exact conditions "wet" at the same exact speeds, which is misleading because Im 100% certain that 100mph on dry track translates to 50 mph on a wet track because we slow it down when inclement.

In my opinion, maximum braking is MECHANICAL operator responsibility and should not be left to an electronic component which reinforces a false sense of security and could in fact fail while in use and you have 200#'s of force on the rear and front brakes as it decides to short out.

I'm learning the FJR's braking range now and I have to say that it reduces energy fast. I'm quite impressed. :clapping: Gotta get the shifter squared away and all will be in order in the universe...until the next mod.

'Wfooshee'

Well, in response to that, I'll say that it has never been a design goal of ABS to maximize braking. It's only function is to prevent lockup. Period. If you're stopping hard enough for ABS to kick in, you're actually increasing your braking distance. I mean, it works by releasing the brakes, right? However instantaneously, it releases them.

But by doing so, and by preventing lockup of the wheels, it allows the vehicle operator, whether 2, 3, or 4 wheels, to maintain control of the vehicle.

As for it advantages, I know for a fact that ABS on my car has kept me out of trouble at least twice that I can recall right now. I've never ridden a bike with ABS, but my second get-off from the FJR would not have happened, as I locked the front wheel.

That said, the ABS in that same car could have killed me one night. I came around a bend, saw a stop sign I'd never seen before, and hit the brakes hard. I maintained perfect control as I went through the intersection while the ABS kept me from locking up where sand had blown onto the road during the day's blusteriness. The car hardly slowed at all! That's why ABS on the Super Tenere is such an issue: who the hell wants it if you're off-road?

As for an ABS system failure, it's so unlikely as to be completely discountable. Even so, an ABS failure is not a brake failure. It's merely a failure of the ABS system, reducing the user to normal brakes without lockup prevention. As for its unlikeliness, I'm talking about unexpected failure at the moment of use. The system has enough self-diag and startup test capability as to make you well aware ahead of time that something's amiss by flashing that light on the dash.

'Mcatrophy'

If only life was that simple. On real roads, particularly in the sort of weather we get in the UK, the road surface conditions can change foot by foot.

I totally agree with wfooshee, and no, you shouldn't make every hard braking episode rely totally on the ABS. I have on a couple of occasions under emergency braking conditions used the ABS to enable me to judge how much braking I can apply, feeling the lever's pulsing as an indication to back off, then apply a bit more to bring it on.

To quote from one ride report I did:

https://www.fjrforum.com/forum//index.php?showtopic=113151&view=findpost&p=527371

Made it to the motorway, proceeded at normal speed, until I saw a car's hub-cap, rolling toward me in my lane, gently crossing from one side to the other, then blowing across again. I have to say I was very impressed by the FJR's brakes, its ABS, and the way I held the braking on the verge of the ABS operating, all on a road surface that was damp with varying levels of grip.

Unless you are a top racer, on the road I firmly believe ABS is a potential life saver, and I'd never have a bike that didn't have it. As for the ABS failing, I periodically test mine under "controlled conditions", yes, even the front. I think it's no more likely to fail than any other of the hydraulic or electronic systems that the bike relies on for your safety. If you want to read a controlled test of bikes with and without ABS, try https://atrophy.lock.net/bnc/b2.html

 

[ionbeam]

Movie Princes Bride:

Man in Black: Truly, you have a dizzying intellect. Vizzini: Wait til I get going! Now, where was I?

:lol:

 

[madmike2]

Movie Princes Bride:

Man in Black: Truly, you have a dizzying intellect. Vizzini: Wait til I get going! Now, where was I?

:lol:

:rofl:

Thanks, Alan, I haven't watched that movie for a year or so...obviously I am out of touch.

This will be moved to NEPRT in 10...9...8...7...

First FJR, non-ABS. This iteration, w/ ABS.

I often (I'd like to say regularly) take mine to the ABS activation point. It's good practice, just as any rider should take their bike to the tire slide threshhold. If nothing else, to be aware of the "feel" of the experience.

Muscle memory and physical awareness/perception are riding elements that any rider needs to be aware of. Part of the problem is that most of us rarely practice vital procedures: swerving, emergency braking, throttle control, lean angle, etc. Therefore, when needed, these necessary life saving techniques are stored in our mind, surface slower than required and we physically do not or cannot respond quickly and directly.

Theoretically, ABS should allow a rider to "jam" on the brakes and prevent tire slide. However, many riders are not fully cognizant of road conditions vs. speed vs. adhesion vs. weight nor are we adept at instantaneously choosing the best option.

My choice is to have ABS for those days or moments when I'm riding at less than 100%, mentally and physically. And for those instantaneous panic moments caused by other drivers/riders.

I have activated my ABS accidentally two times:

First, a young lady driver pulled out of a gas station without looking (6 lane divided road, 45 mph speed limit). I saw her stop and then she suddenly nosed her car into my lane (blocked by traffic on my left). Yes, I had anticipated and rolled "off throttle". Hard braking, rear "clicked" 3 or 4 times, front twice. I stopped about 18" from her front fender just behind the front wheel.

Second, coming to stop at a sudden changing signal, rear activated 2 times. Sand, pebbles, oil?

I'm still glad I have ABS. It really isn't obtrusive to me, just one more item for my safety quotient.

BTW, the ABS on the new Tenere CAN be turned off.

 

[FJRAE]

What wfooshee said

For the abs naysayers; have you owned a bike with abs and are making an apples to apples comparison? Just curious

 

[lfmn16]

There is no safety device or strategy that works 100% of the time in all conditions. Even with safety belts in a car, there have been a handful of instances where people have been trapped and died who might otherwise have gotten out of the car and lived without the safety belt. However, nobody with any common sense fails to buckle up in case they get into one of the .0000001% of the accidents where they would be better off without a safety belt.

I feel the same way about ABS (keeping in mind that I ride almost 100% on the road). Although I am sure that there are instances where the ABS is more dangerous, my equipment and riding style are geared towards whatever will keep me safe in the majority of situations. Bright reflective clothing doesn't attract a daydreaming cager's attention 100% of the time, but I still wear it!

just my two cents. Your mileage may vary.

 

[jcd]

and here we go:

As already noted, excellent arguments can be made for both sides and everything noted has merit and is certainly valid to those opining if to no one else. I will point out some more for/against arguments. Me? I agree with all of it and believe that ABS is an excellent tool that has already saved lives and could have taken others. Do they alter the inevitable such as when your number comes up? Hell no and I believe that not all the lives we perceived as saved, had their number given to the grim reaper for him to call on.

Yes, all of these counters are made basically with the assumption that ABS is designed to prevent locking up the wheels, so I have to take the position that sometimes locking it up is necessary and favorable and point to some detriments cause by the failure of the wheel to lock up. Again, for me, they would be nice to have, but not required. I have tested ABS on my car (2007 Chrysler 300C all wheel drive) when it had one mile on it at the dealer and they worked with surgical precision but when they drop into a pothole or hit a speed bump, something happens that although I did not understand it, I believe they did in fact lock up or over-revved. Having pointed out that they are superior to not having them, I can say with honest confidence that I have never cornered myself into a situation where I had to engage the ABS brakes since I have had them. I could have been lucky and the golden bb might be waiting around the corner for me still, but age convinces me that I have instead been a cautious and responsive driver. This is not to say that they did not engage without my knowlege because I don't entirely know how smooth that transition may have been, but certainly not from me having to slam on the brakes because of operator error or failure to anticipate the road hazards or stupid acts people practice. Can it happen one day just when I'm turning that corner? Of course, but if I know that I can't see around the corner, more caution is exercised with the understanding that I may still be a dead man if I turn the corner and it just happens that someone is landing an aircraft that has stalled on the same roadway.

I do however need to point out to all my brothers and sisters that you have already allowed yourself to be lulled into a false sense of security by thinking that the odds of failure are so small that it can be discounted altogether. It is electronic and it can fail when you have every pound on your body on those levers and when it does, you are going to lock up and with little if any practice, you are going to kill yourself and or someone else. I don't care how small the odds, if it can happen, you have to attempt to mitigate and that means now, not when it is happening. As far as the incredibly small odds go it should be pointed out that something as simple as dirt on the sensors can cause a failure and the last time I looked, they put qualified pilots at the control of an aircraft although those craft can take off, navigate and land entirely by automatic and electronic function.

Location has already been pointed out and of course that is a reality that may require ABS but that is a matter of specific engineering. Where they are perfect for say the UK (because those are "real roads" ) and because of the local weather conditions, it can be said that they are a complete waste of time and irresponsible use of weight for a straight road in a desert where it rains 1" per year, say like in Death Valley which I suppose does not have "real roads" . Having said that, the UK has old timers still alive that have ridden their steeds without ABS for a long long time before ABS, so what did they do right that we can't do the same or that ABS can do better?

Wfoo, I understand what you mean that it has never been a design goal for ABS to maximize braking distance or conversely, to reduce time to zero velocity, although it does reduce that time or distance as a "result", by taking the function to the "maximum braking force" just short of lock up. But too many rely on that exactly as you point out although it is counterintuitive. ABS was designed to mitigate the "unexpected" events that negatively effect the "safe stopping distance or perfect environment" and not to be an unequivocal solution to the operator responsibility to assess his environment and adjust and overcome. Besides, ABS is totally useless if the reaction to the pedal is delayed or the operator "freezes" up. The same is true for non ABS, but they didn't have the ABS to begin with so it is moot.

Who will be the first to admit that the safe following distance rule can be reduced to say 1 car length for every 30mph instead of 10mph just because ABS are incorporated and will "reduce braking distance" or "not lock up"? Not me. At 10mph you're traveling at 14.6ft/sec and at 30mph it's at 44ft/sec but the ABS is not able to "increase" the additional stopping forces for those speeds at equal mass. Even if it can, where the hell are you going to go when everyone up front is screeching to a full stop and there is no lane clearance left or right in front of you to execute a controlled ABS swerve?

Picture this, one lane with precipice on both sides, three vehicles, front without ABS, center with ABS, rear with ABS and lighter in weight than the center vehicle with ABS. Front screeching to a halt defeating the center ABS vehicle because locked wheels on dry pavement have a greater coefficient of resistance than spinning wheels since all the weight has shifted to the front tires, then the center ABS'ing therefore stopping much more quickly than the rear operator suspects because the rear operator believes he is following at the correct distance and then the rear vehicle is unable to reduce speed to match the center vehicle ABS reduction because he is lighter in weight. All of this happens with everyone trying to ram the brake pedal to the floor at the same coordinated time so no lapse of reaction takes place (which is extremely unreasonable to assume, but let's). What is the result? Everybody gets to contact their insurance companies for repair in this instance and 2 out of the 3 vehicles have ABS which worked perfectly without flaw. Hopefully no one gets to push up daisies by turning off into the precipice and trusts in their vehicles ability to sustain an impact. That's called "mixed engineering for the same conditions".

Breaking friction is proportional to the sum of opposing vectors "weight" acting on the contact areas and not reliant on "contact area" like most think. So a vehicle that is lighter with ABS will not stick as readily as a heavy vehicle with ABS, so one will stop faster than the other even if they don't lock up. This is common knowlege to most and all that is required is to look and realize that the front brakes are most effective because the "weight" is shifted forward upon decceleration thereby creating a longer arm from the CG. With ABS, that "shifting" of weight and further increase to braking forces is reduced and equally distributed to the front and rear tire, which may or may not be a good thing, again, dependent on many conditions. Yes, I know an equally effective contradiction can be created for the example, but my point is that WE have 99% of the responsibility and 1% is machine and component, whether mechanical or electronic and I prefer to decide where and how much of the stopping force I deem necessary is placed there and when I want it.

ABS is only as good as the operator and limited by too many factors in and out of the operators control to just place them on a pedestal and bow before them. Conversely, they are also as bad as the operator. Do I believe in them. You better believe it. Are they superior to not having them? I suspect that they are. Can they be defeated in non ABS conditions? I believe they can and more than likely have.

Are there any conditions when the rear tire being locked up is favorable to not locking them up? I think yes. It may not be during ice (which by the way is just as bad with ABS as without depending on tire type and their condition and whether the tire is turned quickly to maximum deflected angle from dead ahead and certainly dependent on a shifting center of gravity) but, not always are all conditions ice and wet. Put a chain on a tire and lock it up and it will anchor your ass to the pavement while the ABS will just keep right on going and going and going. Feasible? No, but a good counter to ABS nonetheless.

On a turn, trying to put a knee down , ABS means that there will be more traction to the rear tire if you use only the rear brake while banking the turn because weight is shifted backwards, but braking forces at the rear tire will be minimal and are more closely related to "control adjustments". But, if you jam both brakes in a turn to get slow enough to stand up for evasive maneuvers or stopping, ABS will "equalize" forces and not put them where needed, which is at the front tire. If you do just the front tire, you get it all, but now the rotational forces of the rear tire wants to cause the tire to go straight so it will create a torque and want to stand you up before you want to get up unless you counter those forces which is the last thing on your mind when faced with a split second decision which only provides enough time to just brake and pray.

Now, I know it's crazy to think and probably blasphemy to say, but given the same example which would be best? A fully controlled ABS operation which carries you around the turn without a lock up and gets you run over by 18 wheels around the corner or, lock up, slip the bike into a ravine and break and bend some shit and watch the 18 wheeler roll by while you lay there crying? I know that everyone will choose the latter but the latter is not possible with ABS so not everyone will be able to choose to live under those conditions. Without ABS I can choose to lock up the wheels or not, with ABS I can't. :assassin:

ABS = +1 in my book but not a cure all and certainly not the best tool for bikes all the time. Much more can be said but in the interest of conserving bandwidth, enough and I'm off to practice in light rain. Happy to hear what others think. Don't provide a for or against "just because". Please give some clarity on the reasoning so I can understand.

Later

J

 

[03HiYoSilver]

jcd,

A few things to mention:

1- The FJR has one of the best ABS on the market but feel comfortable without it on my '03.

2- As an example of control, I turned OFF my ABS on my GMC Suburban for it felt it would not Stop Properly or Allow me to control braking.

One day, in my Suburban w/ABS off, a small car was coming across into my lane in a 4 way intersection as I was making a fast left turn and was bound to hit her. So I had to swing the truck wide right and put the brakes into a controlled 4 wheel slide in order to avoid hitting her. With ABS on, I probably would have hit her since ABS would not have allowed me to do a controlled slide.

So by and large, ABS is good and with some drivers it may impede their driving potential.

 

[lfmn16]

Do they alter the inevitable such as when your number comes up? Hell no and I believe that not all the lives we perceived as saved, had their number given to the grim reaper for him to call on.

If the "when your number is up, your number is up" argument was valid, we could make the same claim for all safety equipment. What makes wearing helmets any different then having a bike with ABS breaks? Everyone can make their own choice, but although death is inevitable, we can do a lot of things to improve our odds. Although there are always exceptions to every rule, I think that in the vast majority of cases ABS increases your odds of survival.

 

[NEPA Jim]

See attached study.

I hope the link worked. I did not check to see if it is on the forum in any other place. It's interesting that the study used an FJR as one of the bikes, so it makes a good argument on this forum re "is ABS better". I hope my fellow riders read the study versus just looking at the charts. It is very noteworthy that the ABS distances were average test distances and the non-abs distances were best distances. I am one of those riders that at least once a month goes to a large empty lot to practice panic stops on my bikes and I always thought "Oh... I hope I get one of my good stops when I actually panic". In actual real life situations.....I did not, but I have been lucky enough to still stop short of the collision as I let up on the rear break to keep the bike up from a low slide. So in my humble opinion you would need to take the range of distances W/O abs (not supplied by the study) and multiply by some probability factor to really understand the real world non-abs distance. ABS is one of the key reasons why I have an FJR.....and the rest of the bike has been a real BONUS!!

Stay safe! ABS study

 

[wfooshee]

Who will be the first to admit that the safe following distance rule can be reduced to say 1 car length for every 30mph instead of 10mph just because ABS are incorporated and will "reduce braking distance" or "not lock up"? Not me. At 10mph you're traveling at 14.6ft/sec and at 30mph it's at 44ft/sec but the ABS is not able to "increase" the additional stopping forces for those speeds at equal mass. Even if it can, where the hell are you going to go when everyone up front is screeching to a full stop and there is no lane clearance left or right in front of you to execute a controlled ABS swerve?

Who said reducing following distance was OK with ABS? First I've ever seen it mentioned. Inventing an argument just to refute it?

Picture this, one lane with precipice on both sides, three vehicles, front without ABS, center with ABS, rear with ABS and lighter in weight than the center vehicle with ABS. Front screeching to a halt defeating the center ABS vehicle because locked wheels on dry pavement have a greater coefficient of resistance than spinning wheels since all the weight has shifted to the front tires, then the center ABS'ing therefore stopping much more quickly than the rear operator suspects because the rear operator believes he is following at the correct distance and then the rear vehicle is unable to reduce speed to match the center vehicle ABS reduction because he is lighter in weight. All of this happens with everyone trying to ram the brake pedal to the floor at the same coordinated time so no lapse of reaction takes place (which is extremely unreasonable to assume, but let's). What is the result? Everybody gets to contact their insurance companies for repair in this instance and 2 out of the 3 vehicles have ABS which worked perfectly without flaw. Hopefully no one gets to push up daisies by turning off into the precipice and trusts in their vehicles ability to sustain an impact. That's called "mixed engineering for the same conditions".

No, it's called lumping bad assumptions together to come up with an invalid conclusion. Locked wheels do not have a "greater coefficient of resistance" (in quotes because it's not even a real term) than rolling wheels. Anyone who's ever locked the front of their car on a wet road can attest to that!

Years ago, I cannot find it now, Car and Driver tested whether locked wheels stopped shorter than maximum braking unlocked wheels. It was their intent to prove that while locking all four wheels would render the car complete uncontrollable, it might still stop shorter. They were unable to ever lock more than 2 or 3 wheels at once, and the car locking up always stopped significantly longer than the same car not locked. I remember the car used was the Caprice, the huge land yacht of the late 80s.

It's also invalid to assume that lighter weight means less traction and thus greater stopping distance, because it's much easier to stop a vehicle which weighs less. Not as much kinetic energy, y'know?

Breaking friction is proportional to the sum of opposing vectors "weight" acting on the contact areas and not reliant on "contact area" like most think. So a vehicle that is lighter with ABS will not stick as readily as a heavy vehicle with ABS, so one will stop faster than the other even if they don't lock up. This is common knowlege to most and all that is required is to look and realize that the front brakes are most effective because the "weight" is shifted forward upon decceleration thereby creating a longer arm from the CG. With ABS, that "shifting" of weight and further increase to braking forces is reduced and equally distributed to the front and rear tire, which may or may not be a good thing, again, dependent on many conditions. Yes, I know an equally effective contradiction can be created for the example, but my point is that WE have 99% of the responsibility and 1% is machine and component, whether mechanical or electronic and I prefer to decide where and how much of the stopping force I deem necessary is placed there and when I want it.

Now you're just making stuff up as you go along. ABS has nothing to do with weight transfer. Nor does wheel weight have anything to do with braking ability. Sure a lighter vehicle's wheel weight will be less, but so what? It needs less braking action because (can you guess?) the vehicle itself is lighter, and therefore easier to stop! If wheel weight was such a major factor, a Miata would not be able to out-brake a school bus, would it?

Finally, braking action is at the contact patch of the tire, and not at the rotors or drums. You don't get better brakes by having bigger brakes. If the brakes on the vehicle are capable of locking the wheel, then they're capable of stopping the vehicle.

Back in my autocross days, I ran a 1995 Ford Probe GT in SCCA G Stock Solo II. 225-50-16 tires. Smaller brakes than a Miata, but larger tires. Much heavier than a Miata as well. Similar braking ability, though. The Probe leveraged it's larger tire to bring its higher weight down just as well as the Miata's smaller tire and smaller weight.

But the Miata could do it all day, whereas the Probe was cooked after one hard stop from 80. See, bigger brakes don't give you better stopping power, they give you higher heat capacity. The Probe's brakes couldn't shed heat fast enough to make that second stop from 80, where the Miata could do it just about all day.

 

[madmike2]

If you started this thread for the very reason to assure yourself that your reasoning vis-a-vis ABS is the superior position, you win.

For me, being able to use FJR brakes to the ABS threshold consistently is the level to which I have been able to use them. I hope that is the case for you. Should you, for whatever reason, including not reacting quickly enough, misjudging closing speed, mis-identifying road conditions not be able to do so, the resultant slide (lowside, high side, whatever) may be more catastrophic than anything I've experienced or want to. Correct distance in relation to possible hazard is the responsibility of the rider, not the ABS.

By all means, make your decision and live with it. That's what we've done for the reasons stated in every post in this thread.

No, I don't rely on ABS as a "catch all" for my ineptitude, though based on your argument, that appears to be one of the traits you assign to some operators. I do assume that ABS will be there if needed and, if not, the responsibility and capability to correctly respond accordingly to control my vehicle while using correct brake application is mine and mine alone. As it is with every other motorcyclist.

NEPA Jim said:

I am one of those riders that at least once a month goes to a large empty lot to practice panic stops on my bikes and I always thought "Oh... I hope I get one of my good stops when I actually panic".

Great point! I've had the good fortune to be able to stop in time. I also try to practice monthly though it usually works out every 6 weeks, or so. However, I do get to ride nearly year-round. Consistency is one of the keys to control, and control is the end result of our practice, abilities and accessories like ABS.

Truthfully, it isn't worth the energy to type responses to this discussion as it seems to have become a debate rather than a discussion. Let's go for a ride and enjoy ourselves.

NEPRT: 9...8...7...6...5...

 

[jcd]

See attached study.

I hope the link worked. I did not check to see if it is on the forum in any other place. It's interesting that the study used an FJR as one of the bikes, so it makes a good argument on this forum re "is ABS better". I hope my fellow riders read the study versus just looking at the charts. It is very noteworthy that the ABS distances were average test distances and the non-abs distances were best distances. I am one of those riders that at least once a month goes to a large empty lot to practice panic stops on my bikes and I always thought "Oh... I hope I get one of my good stops when I actually panic". In actual real life situations.....I did not, but I have been lucky enough to still stop short of the collision as I let up on the rear break to keep the bike up from a low slide. So in my humble opinion you would need to take the range of distances W/O abs (not supplied by the study) and multiply by some probability factor to really understand the real world non-abs distance. ABS is one of the key reasons why I have an FJR.....and the rest of the bike has been a real BONUS!!

Stay safe! ABS study

Outstanding. Truly an outstanding point. Gotta know the limits. I have tried to read the study but it does not allow me to increase size. Can you resend it? Could be I don't know how.

 

[FJRAE]

Fwiw, in the 20 odd years I spent in the auto repair biz, neither myself or any of my co-workers ever had a vehicle in for repair with a complaint of ABS failing to work at the exact moment it was needed/activated. I'm sure it's possible that it has happened, though I'd a hazard a guess that the odds are akin to winning the lottery... twice!

As far as preferring to slide off the road, in my own limited experience, I locked up my front wheel entering a turn on a VTX 1800 and slid about a 100ft into a ditch with the bike ending up lodged between 2 small trees. ABS definitely would have kept me upright and in control. As always YMMV I think it'll be difficult to convince an abs owner that not having it would be better

 

[NEPA Jim]

See attached study.

I hope the link worked. I did not check to see if it is on the forum in any other place. It's interesting that the study used an FJR as one of the bikes, so it makes a good argument on this forum re "is ABS better". I hope my fellow riders read the study versus just looking at the charts. It is very noteworthy that the ABS distances were average test distances and the non-abs distances were best distances. I am one of those riders that at least once a month goes to a large empty lot to practice panic stops on my bikes and I always thought "Oh... I hope I get one of my good stops when I actually panic". In actual real life situations.....I did not, but I have been lucky enough to still stop short of the collision as I let up on the rear break to keep the bike up from a low slide. So in my humble opinion you would need to take the range of distances W/O abs (not supplied by the study) and multiply by some probability factor to really understand the real world non-abs distance. ABS is one of the key reasons why I have an FJR.....and the rest of the bike has been a real BONUS!!

Stay safe! ABS study

Outstanding. Truly an outstanding point. Gotta know the limits. I have tried to read the study but it does not allow me to increase size. Can you resend it? Could be I don't know how.

Try losing the panel on the right of the document (if the document came up that way) and that will make it more readable; then play with the % window on the center of the menu bar on top re size.

 

[ionbeam]

Fwiw, in the 20 odd years I spent in the auto repair biz, neither myself or any of my co-workers ever had a vehicle in for repair with a complaint of ABS failing to work at the exact moment it was needed/activated...

There are members on this Forum that have had failed ABS systems. The systems were not noticed to have failed until they were called upon to actuate. The primary failure mode seems be be frozen spool valves in the hydraulic metering block. The only cure is replacement, with new units costing north of $1,000 USD.

There are times when SURPRISE isn't welcome.

 

[NEPA Jim]

I think ABS is a great defensive tool, and at that point you are in a bad situation. I wish ABS came with a "one mile radius" cell phone text message jamming device.... then we would all agree it was a must have option!

 

[jcd]

See attached study.

I hope the link worked. I did not check to see if it is on the forum in any other place. It's interesting that the study used an FJR as one of the bikes, so it makes a good argument on this forum re "is ABS better". I hope my fellow riders read the study versus just looking at the charts. It is very noteworthy that the ABS distances were average test distances and the non-abs distances were best distances. I am one of those riders that at least once a month goes to a large empty lot to practice panic stops on my bikes and I always thought "Oh... I hope I get one of my good stops when I actually panic". In actual real life situations.....I did not, but I have been lucky enough to still stop short of the collision as I let up on the rear break to keep the bike up from a low slide. So in my humble opinion you would need to take the range of distances W/O abs (not supplied by the study) and multiply by some probability factor to really understand the real world non-abs distance. ABS is one of the key reasons why I have an FJR.....and the rest of the bike has been a real BONUS!!

Stay safe! ABS study

Outstanding. Truly an outstanding point. Gotta know the limits. I have tried to read the study but it does not allow me to increase size. Can you resend it? Could be I don't know how.

Try losing the panel on the right of the document (if the document came up that way) and that will make it more readable; then play with the % window on the center of the menu bar on top re size.

 

[madmike2]

Fwiw, in the 20 odd years I spent in the auto repair biz, neither myself or any of my co-workers ever had a vehicle in for repair with a complaint of ABS failing to work at the exact moment it was needed/activated...

There are members on this Forum that have had failed ABS systems. The systems were not noticed to have failed until they were called upon to actuate. The primary failure mode seems be be frozen spool valves in the hydraulic metering block. The only cure is replacement, with new units costing north of $1,000 USD.

There are times when SURPRISE isn't welcome.

Hence the reason for monthly (or so) parking lot practice sessions including ABS activation. Perhaps activating the ABS occaisionally helps prevent frozen spool valves by causing the valves to operate and flush fluid through the metering block, and system. Not being an engineer I really don't know....it's just a guess on my part. At least I know mine is working because I actually force it to cycle which seems to me to be a better option than hoping it works.

I do the same on my work vehicles, though our warning lights are more accurate.

YMMV

 

[ionbeam]

...Hence the reason for monthly (or so) parking lot practice sessions including ABS activation. Perhaps activating the ABS occaisionally helps prevent frozen spool valves by causing the valves to operate and flush fluid through the metering block, and system...

It is probably good speculation that moving brake fluid through the spool valve prevents sticking. While not proven, there is suspicion that moisture in the brake fluid rusts the spool valve closed. There is a 'fail-safe' mode that is supposed to disable the ABS if something from a specific list of faults occurs, and it also sets a fault light so the operator knows something has failed.

If someone were to choose a safer method of operating the hydraulic metering block there is a procedure that is awkward to read but simple to follow that actuates the metering block and moves brake fluid while safely on the center stand. The next time I have the panels off I'm thinking of permanently installing an ABS test jumper, then putting a toggle switch on the jumper so I can enable the ABS test anytime. Especially times like when I'm bleeding the brakes.