ABS vs NON ABS

[Constant Mesh]

That would be a nice feature Ionbeam. Simple to implement and useful too. It's a pity the system doesn't automatically cycle itself once every 25? hours of operation. Have a counter inside the ABS controller which triggers an operating/purge cycle to periodically circulate fluid through the system. As long as it was explained in the Owner's Manual one might be caught unawares when it happened but you'd know/understand it was a normal automatic maintenance activity for the system.

 

[FJRAE]

Fwiw, in the 20 odd years I spent in the auto repair biz, neither myself or any of my co-workers ever had a vehicle in for repair with a complaint of ABS failing to work at the exact moment it was needed/activated...

There are members on this Forum that have had failed ABS systems. The systems were not noticed to have failed until they were called upon to actuate. The primary failure mode seems be be frozen spool valves in the hydraulic metering block. The only cure is replacement, with new units costing north of $1,000 USD.

There are times when SURPRISE isn't welcome.

Interesting and good to know, sounds like the FJR abs system might be a bit primitive compared to it's automotive counterparts which typically perform a self test and actuate the pump once the vehicle starts to move on initial start up. Maybe degraded fluid contributed to the failures on the FJRs?

 

[madmike2]

If someone were to choose a safer method of operating the hydraulic metering block there is a procedure that is awkward to read but simple to follow that actuates the metering block and moves brake fluid while safely on the center stand. The next time I have the panels off I'm thinking of permanently installing an ABS test jumper, then putting a toggle switch on the jumper so I can enable the ABS test anytime. Especially times like when I'm bleeding the brakes.

If you do that modification, will you take pictures and post a report so those of us who are "not-so-accomplished" but handy in other ways could follow lyour example?

Even if you don't post it, would you make it available to those of us willing to build our own and assume our own risk?

 

[ionbeam]

If you do that modification, will you take pictures and post a report so those of us who are "not-so-accomplished" but handy in other ways could follow lyour example?

Even if you don't post it, would you make it available to those of us willing to build our own and assume our own risk?

The difficulty of doing this will rate right up there with unplugging the windshield retract jumper I will definitely do a text how-to soon, and hopefully be able to do a pictorial before the end of April. This is a low to no risk project.

 

[Crash Cash]

I have to say the ABS on my SV-650 is a lot different from the FJR's. The FJR ABS is like a little tickle in the lever, but the SV ABS is like someone hitting the lever with a hammer. It actually makes your knuckles hurt for a while afterwards.

Now that it's saved my ass a couple times, I wouldn't have a bike without ABS, just like I wouldn't ride without a helmet and jacket.

Once was when someone left a full quart bottle of oil on the road, and someone else ran over it. Another was when a woman came across three lanes to COMPLETELY STOP in my lane in the rain. Yeah, I had my horn on for 2 blocks after that...

 

[jcd]

Good morning to all,

Sometimes we just gotta clear shit up. My dick is a millimeter shorter than everyone's so I won't get into a pissing contest because given the same forces, I will always end up short.

Who said reducing following distance was OK with ABS? First I've ever seen it mentioned. Inventing an argument just to refute it?

Certainly not me. Read the fucking post. And yes, when you don't care about a for or against, you offer a theory and challenge it with another. It's called being objective. Theory leads to thesis leads to antithesis etc etc. Get it?

No, it's called lumping bad assumptions together to come up with an invalid conclusion. Locked wheels do not have a "greater coefficient of resistance" (in quotes because it's not even a real term) than rolling wheels. Anyone who's ever locked the front of their car on a wet road can attest to that!

No, it's called hypothesizing to show that bad shit does happen and it always happens at the worst possible time like when crossing the fucking street and not looking both ways just because it's a one way street. No way someone or something could be coming up the wrong way right? It still amazes me how some survived puberty.

Also, interchangable terms, although unbeknownst to you, do exist. Besides, now, my point is that the tests are as faulty as your point because the higher coefficient is on a "dry" medium and not "wet" like you say.

Years ago, I cannot find it now, Car and Driver tested whether locked wheels stopped shorter than maximum braking unlocked wheels. It was their intent to prove that while locking all four wheels would render the car complete uncontrollable, it might still stop shorter. They were unable to ever lock more than 2 or 3 wheels at once, and the car locking up always stopped significantly longer than the same car not locked. I remember the car used was the Caprice, the huge land yacht of the late 80s.

It's also invalid to assume that lighter weight means less traction and thus greater stopping distance, because it's much easier to stop a vehicle which weighs less. Not as much kinetic energy, y'know?!

I don't think that anyone has yet disagreed that by the very nature of the ABS design, that it prevents lock ups and that a result of that function means that ABS will always stop shorter. You like to mix words up and then call shit that you couldn't get straight invalid. You're now trying to mix up the shit I was saying with kinetic energy. Greater weight = greater oppossing forces = greater friction = greater traction. Simple proven laws in physics. Kinetic energy are forces required to accelerate/deccelerate mass. Area does not mean shit. Put an empty box on the floor and push it and see how easy it is to push it, then fill the same box with sand and try to push it. More force is required because there is more weight acting on the box = more friction = more traction for the same base area. I know what it is you're trying to say but you need to figure out what I'm saying. Learn to read so you can read and learn and read the fucking post.

Now you're just making stuff up as you go along. ABS has nothing to do with weight transfer. Nor does wheel weight have anything to do with braking ability. Sure a lighter vehicle's wheel weight will be less, but so what? It needs less braking action because (can you guess?) the vehicle itself is lighter, and therefore easier to stop! If wheel weight was such a major factor, a Miata would not be able to out-brake a school bus, would it?

Finally, braking action is at the contact patch of the tire, and not at the rotors or drums. You don't get better brakes by having bigger brakes. If the brakes on the vehicle are capable of locking the wheel, then they're capable of stopping the vehicle.

Back in my autocross days, I ran a 1995 Ford Probe GT in SCCA G Stock Solo II. 225-50-16 tires. Smaller brakes than a Miata, but larger tires. Much heavier than a Miata as well. Similar braking ability, though. The Probe leveraged it's larger tire to bring its higher weight down just as well as the Miata's smaller tire and smaller weight.

But the Miata could do it all day, whereas the Probe was cooked after one hard stop from 80. See, bigger brakes don't give you better stopping power, they give you higher heat capacity. The Probe's brakes couldn't shed heat fast enough to make that second stop from 80, where the Miata could do it just about all day.

Is that the best against you can provide? "Now you're making stuff up as you go along?" That's it? There you go again mixing shit up to make it sound as if you're a know it all. I don't know where I would be without you here to overstate the obvious and already known to everyone. And show me where everything you just noted was said anywhere on my post.

I came in here to learn and be helpful when possible instead of having to deal with toxic crap like the shit coming out of your mouth. If in doubt, you could have asked for the back-up but no, someone says something correct around here and all of a sudden you view them as a threat to your know it all attitude and you move to discredit their intent with little evidence. Real constructive.

It may be good for you to reference where you got the information that what I said exists does not and that I was just making shit up so I can establish if they're an authority on making shit up, much like you. Right now I'm considering the current source (that would be you) highly suspect in accuracy.

NEPAJIM, I was going to answer your post in a different page but I found this to be the best place for the response since it provides all the evidence to send Wfooshee that he is too scared to look up himself because it may contradict the belief that he is always right.

See attached study.

I hope the link worked. I did not check to see if it is on the forum in any other place. It's interesting that the study used an FJR as one of the bikes, so it makes a good argument on this forum re "is ABS better". I hope my fellow riders read the study versus just looking at the charts. It is very noteworthy that the ABS distances were average test distances and the non-abs distances were best distances. I am one of those riders that at least once a month goes to a large empty lot to practice panic stops on my bikes and I always thought "Oh... I hope I get one of my good stops when I actually panic". In actual real life situations.....I did not, but I have been lucky enough to still stop short of the collision as I let up on the rear break to keep the bike up from a low slide. So in my humble opinion you would need to take the range of distances W/O abs (not supplied by the study) and multiply by some probability factor to really understand the real world non-abs distance. ABS is one of the key reasons why I have an FJR.....and the rest of the bike has been a real BONUS!!

Stay safe! ABS study

Outstanding. Truly an outstanding point. Gotta know the limits. I have tried to read the study but it does not allow me to increase size. Can you resend it? Could be I don't know how.

Try losing the panel on the right of the document (if the document came up that way) and that will make it more readable; then play with the % window on the center of the menu bar on top re size.

I was able to have read the study and it made strong points much like my own opinions, much like many opinions here.

I quote:

"With the use of ABS, however, the rider was able to quickly obtain consistent maximum deceleration results, whether the vehicle was loaded or lightly loaded. Despite this advantage, the rider must remain alert because the ABS may not detect dynamic instabilities such as the rear wheel becoming airborne, possibly requiring the operator to reduce the brake control force to prevent a fall."

Here the responsibility still goes back to the rider to decide on a specific force to use. The ABS is yet another skill that has to be learned. So far my most singlemost important point that it goes back to the rider in all instances has been refuted only with spectacular acts of attack. I was going to keep quoting but to make a long point short, it makes almost all excellent points. Just amazing.

Regardless, everyone should read this third party test that is an authoritative work. It completely and irrefutably confirms all beliefs currently being refuted. It's all there. Just research it and read it. Read other studies for or against as well.

Everything I have noted is being substantiated by disinterested third parties and other forum posts as well. Besides, the ABS systems themselves are designed to disable itself if a faulty code is recorded so it may be that you missed it if the warning light bulb is burnt and you won’t have the ABS when you require them most. Here are a couple others. If they aren't all there, just do basic and simple internet searches and it will hit several million pages.

https://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/frict.html

https://www.webbikeworld.com/Motorcycle-Safety/braking-tips.htm

https://www.daytonamotorcycletraining.com/Motorcycle-brakes-and-stopping.htm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traction_(engineering)

https://www.motorcyclesafetyinfo.com/motorcycle_braking.html

https://mfes.com/motorcyclebraking.html

https://www.motorcyclecruiser.com/streetsurvival/advanced_braking/index.html

https://www.motorcyclecruiser.com/streetsurvival/advanced_braking/index.html

https://www.nhtsa.gov/people/injury/pedbimot/motorcycle/00-NHT-212-motorcycle/motorcycle45-46.html

https://www.sportrider.com/tech/146_0310_art/index.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_and_motorcycle_geometry

https://stevemunden.com/leanangle.html

https://www.msgroup.org/Tip.aspx?Num=173

and it goes on and on and on much like an NEPRT. We have to trust the facts the same way we trust our bikes, components, ability and instruments. I am so glad that there are so many that have researched and documented my suspicions in an authorative manner that clarifies the matter unequivocally because it also proves that just because you don't know it doesn't mean it does not exist.

I still think that ABS is superior technology but not superior to our thoughts. Our thoughts travel at the speed of electricity and by the time that gets to the ABS, it has been transformed from 390 feet/sec c to 6 feet/sec if you're 6 feet tall. Use the noggin. The problem here is that we are not flawless (me at the top of the list) and we have to continue to hone our skills and knowlege.

Lets get back to being productive and keep unsubstantiated information from this thread. :angry2:

Later

J

 

[jcd]

Do they alter the inevitable such as when your number comes up? Hell no and I believe that not all the lives we perceived as saved, had their number given to the grim reaper for him to call on.

If the "when your number is up, your number is up" argument was valid, we could make the same claim for all safety equipment. What makes wearing helmets any different then having a bike with ABS breaks? Everyone can make their own choice, but although death is inevitable, we can do a lot of things to improve our odds. Although there are always exceptions to every rule, I think that in the vast majority of cases ABS increases your odds of survival.

Hawdy,

No of course not. No effort is made to validate the argument by me. Death happens before birth and inevitable it is. However, survival is a choice and not always inevitable. That is the reason that I say +1 for ABS but +100 to us first.

What should not be allowed is that others place ABS on a pedestal and then attempt to glorify it by validating the false argument that it saves lives. There is absolutely no question that it increases chances of survival. I have already written several times that yes, ABS is superior technology, but then take sides against it because even that superior technology requires "our" expert authority to work and it seems that many are putting that responsibility in the hands of the electronics. Electronics which are at the mercy of a burnt out warning light!

Gotta run,

J

 

[palerider]

Now, I know it's crazy to think and probably blasphemy to say, but given the same example which would be best? A fully controlled ABS operation which carries you around the turn without a lock up and gets you run over by 18 wheels around the corner or, lock up, slip the bike into a ravine and break and bend some shit and watch the 18 wheeler roll by while you lay there crying? I know that everyone will choose the latter but the latter is not possible with ABS so not everyone will be able to choose to live under those conditions. Without ABS I can choose to lock up the wheels or not, with ABS I can't.

One time I was on the FJR doing the ton on a slab in the middle of nowhere, and I saw ahead of me that a meteor was coming down, and I realized that it was going to hit me, so I jammed the brakes, but because I hit a couple of tar-snakes the ABS pulsed a few times and my stop was two feet longer than it would have been without ABS and with an otherwise perfectly controlled, non-ABS stop. As a result, I went a bit too far, the meteor hit me, and I died.

 

[SkooterG]

Looks like we got a new live one on the forum..........

 

[Ignacio]

Looks like we got a new live one on the forum..........

Yes, with stuff like

I came in here to learn and be helpful when possible instead of having to deal with toxic crap like the shit coming out of your mouth.

the personal-attack-o-meter needs to be dialed back a notch or two. Hopefully the newb gets it all in one sock or I fear they won't make 10 actual counting posts.

 

[FJReady]

We're old and we like our ABS. We've been down this road many times, many many times, and we still like our ABS. Jes sayin'

 

[Crash Cash]

Now, I know it's crazy to think and probably blasphemy to say, but given the same example which would be best? A fully controlled ABS operation which carries you around the turn without a lock up and gets you run over by 18 wheels around the corner or, lock up, slip the bike into a ravine and break and bend some shit and watch the 18 wheeler roll by while you lay there crying? I know that everyone will choose the latter but the latter is not possible with ABS so not everyone will be able to choose to live under those conditions. Without ABS I can choose to lock up the wheels or not, with ABS I can't.

One time I was on the FJR doing the ton on a slab in the middle of nowhere, and I saw ahead of me that a meteor was coming down, and I realized that it was going to hit me, so I jammed the brakes, but because I hit a couple of tar-snakes the ABS pulsed a few times and my stop was two feet longer than it would have been without ABS and with an otherwise perfectly controlled, non-ABS stop. As a result, I went a bit too far, the meteor hit me, and I died.

Did that happen to you too? Damn, I hate it when that happens.

 

[SacramentoMike]

.

Whew. Damn bad luck, Palerider. Similarly, I knew a guy whose cousin was riding along bare headed when a low-flying jet passed just over his head. Missed him by about an eighth of an inch. The guy riding behind him was wearing a helmet. The other wing of the jet clipped the damn helmet and knocked his head off. Poor bastard.

jcd, for a guy who wasn't going to get into a pissing contest, you sure are doing a lot of pissing. I'm guessing you know about "warning meters" by now. I'd see if I could adjust my approach here if I were you.

 

[FJRAE]

Now, I know it's crazy to think and probably blasphemy to say, but given the same example which would be best? A fully controlled ABS operation which carries you around the turn without a lock up and gets you run over by 18 wheels around the corner or, lock up, slip the bike into a ravine and break and bend some shit and watch the 18 wheeler roll by while you lay there crying? I know that everyone will choose the latter but the latter is not possible with ABS so not everyone will be able to choose to live under those conditions. Without ABS I can choose to lock up the wheels or not, with ABS I can't.

One time I was on the FJR doing the ton on a slab in the middle of nowhere, and I saw ahead of me that a meteor was coming down, and I realized that it was going to hit me, so I jammed the brakes, but because I hit a couple of tar-snakes the ABS pulsed a few times and my stop was two feet longer than it would have been without ABS and with an otherwise perfectly controlled, non-ABS stop. As a result, I went a bit too far, the meteor hit me, and I died.

Thanks for the chuckle, well needed today

 

[jcd]

Looks like we got a new live one on the forum..........

Yes, with stuff like

I came in here to learn and be helpful when possible instead of having to deal with toxic crap like the shit coming out of your mouth.

the personal-attack-o-meter needs to be dialed back a notch or two. Hopefully the newb gets it all in one sock or I fear they won't make 10 actual counting posts.

Hello to all,

It is my intent to get it all in one sock.

I am wholeheartedly sending out a full, unabridged and unequivocal apology to any and all that have been offended by my rhetoric in this forum. Specifically to Wfoos. I have come to realize that my reaction is more because you were confused about the different subjects discussed and I should have explained those more clearly. If you still require clarity, I would be happy to show where the subjects you pointed out are not the same that I was discussing and that regardless of how incorrectly convinced you are that everything I said is a lie, it isn't.

I do not offer this apology under the threat that I may not make post 10 as has been already noted because to be quite honest I want to be here but I don't have to be here. I offer it freely without any duress because the matter could have been handled differently regardless of how much I may have felt attacked or offended and it is for my own personal growth that I provide it. I am still convinced that I am 100% right about everything else and I put only my above act in the line of fire.

Accept or reject. You can all choose.

Later

J

 

[jcd]

.

Whew. Damn bad luck, Palerider. Similarly, I knew a guy whose cousin was riding along bare headed when a low-flying jet passed just over his head. Missed him by about an eighth of an inch. The guy riding behind him was wearing a helmet. The other wing of the jet clipped the damn helmet and knocked his head off. Poor bastard.

jcd, for a guy who wasn't going to get into a pissing contest, you sure are doing a lot of pissing. I'm guessing you know about "warning meters" by now. I'd see if I could adjust my approach here if I were you.

Thanks

Approach for landing has been completely re-routed.

Thank you for the advise.

J

 

[palerider]

Accept or reject. You can all choose.

Later

J

Dude,

Apology noted, but AFAIAC unnecessary. Ride fast, but be slow to take offense. Don't mistake bluntness for hostility. Welcome aboard.

 

[jcd]

Accept or reject. You can all choose.

Later

J

Dude,

Apology noted, but AFAIAC unnecessary. Ride fast, but be slow to take offense. Don't mistake bluntness for hostility. Welcome aboard.

Palerider,

Glad to be aboard.

Thanks for the advice. Working on it.

J

 

[TechJunkie]

I am no expert by any means but I have at least some experience to share.

I signed up for the Advanced MSF course last year and as luck would have it, it rained all day. I found out quickly that my FJR with ABS handily out performed the all the other bikes that did not have ABS in the quick stopping tests, and it wasn't because of my superior piloting skills. The instructors were impressed with the FJR and even stopped me to discuss my FJR and it's ABS, one of which rode a ST1300. The FJR with ABS performed flawlessly all day. Many of the other bikes simply slid to a stop while my FJR was quick to stop and was always under control.

Just my experience and as always YMMV.

 

[RadioHowie]

What should not be allowed is that others place ABS on a pedestal and then attempt to glorify it by validating the false argument that it saves lives. There is absolutely no question that it increases chances of survival.

Maybe I'm missing something, but isn't "increases chances of survival" kinda the same thing as "it saves lives"?

Dude, you have a serious contradiction in your statements there.

I'm not saying ABS is good, bad, or smoked pork, but what you wrote don't make a lick!