AE Stuttering

[odot]

Ya know what...........I think you need a new battery.

 

[Bustanut joker]

Or it needs a speech therapist..

 

[HotRodZilla]

Or it needs a speech therapist..

YOU need a therapist!

 

[El Toro]

Watching your video, I have a thought about the problem. Obviously, in the video, you are holding the bike back with the brake, and the bucking is to some extent due to the computer program recognizing that the bike is not going anywhere and releasing the clutch after having engaged it.

I know that you do not ride this way so I am not going to suggest anything stupid, like "learn to ride." Instead, I wonder if your problem is a sticking brake pedal, or possibly a sticking caliper. Maybe the problem is not a computer controlled clutch problem at all, but a regular old problem with an unlubricated brake pedal pivot. Just a thought...

There should be no bad behaviour trying to move the bike against either brake.

The rear brake most of us use during slow manoeuvring, holding it hard on simply makes the engine work harder against the stationary rear wheel.

Against the front brake, a little storey. One rider I've toured with many times rides a conventional FJR, and has often bantered with me over my AS.

We were both ready to move off, waiting whilst others of the group got ready. He held his front brake on, and started to engage his clutch with a bit of throttle to make the bike ride against the front suspension. Said to me, "Bet you can't do that."

So I held my front brake on and wound on the throttle a bit so that the clutch started to engage, the bike pushing against the front suspension. "Bet you can't do this!", said I, giving him the bird with my left hand.

Engagement was as smooth as silk.

Your bike was warmed up.

If the bike isn't warmed up, you can get this jump against the brake. Its not a defect.

Once its warmed up, you can't induce it and instead you see what you've described. Not so good for the bike though, as you are wearing the friction materials by holding the bike against the brake. This is one of the reasons why I avoid used bikes. Its always a lottery.

 

[mcatrophy]

...

Engagement was as smooth as silk.

Your bike was warmed up.

If the bike isn't warmed up, you can get this jump against the brake. It's not a defect.

Once its warmed up, you can't induce it and instead you see what you've described. Not so good for the bike though, as you are wearing the friction materials by holding the bike against the brake. This is one of the reasons why I avoid used bikes. It's always a lottery.

I delayed replying so that I could do a "cold" test, to make sure my memory was still functional

.

Tried it this morning. Started it cold and immediately rev'd it against the back brake then the front. Even with the high cold revs it behaved perfectly, no jerkiness at all. Still smooth as silk.

So as far as I am concerned, the bike should behave impeccably, cold as well as warm. If it doesn't, IMHO it is a defect, it's up to a dealer to fix if it's under warranty.

As for wear of the friction material, no-one is suggesting this is a procedure to be done all the time, but as a test it's no problem. My '06 had some 20000 miles on it when I did the clutch soak. Not many by some standards, but much of its life had been spent crawling in very slow moving traffic with the clutch slipping. There was no appreciable wear at all, even on a "dry" plate, as shown in my pictures - example:

(Click on image for larger view)



And from my '10 at about 15500 miles (but probably not quite so "abused"):

 

[Auron]

Watching your video, I have a thought about the problem. Obviously, in the video, you are holding the bike back with the brake, and the bucking is to some extent due to the computer program recognizing that the bike is not going anywhere and releasing the clutch after having engaged it.

I know that you do not ride this way so I am not going to suggest anything stupid, like "learn to ride." Instead, I wonder if your problem is a sticking brake pedal, or possibly a sticking caliper. Maybe the problem is not a computer controlled clutch problem at all, but a regular old problem with an unlubricated brake pedal pivot. Just a thought...

There should be no bad behaviour trying to move the bike against either brake.

The rear brake most of us use during slow manoeuvring, holding it hard on simply makes the engine work harder against the stationary rear wheel.

Against the front brake, a little storey. One rider I've toured with many times rides a conventional FJR, and has often bantered with me over my AS.

We were both ready to move off, waiting whilst others of the group got ready. He held his front brake on, and started to engage his clutch with a bit of throttle to make the bike ride against the front suspension. Said to me, "Bet you can't do that."

So I held my front brake on and wound on the throttle a bit so that the clutch started to engage, the bike pushing against the front suspension. "Bet you can't do this!", said I, giving him the bird with my left hand.

Engagement was as smooth as silk.

Your bike was warmed up.

If the bike isn't warmed up, you can get this jump against the brake. Its not a defect.

Once its warmed up, you can't induce it and instead you see what you've described. Not so good for the bike though, as you are wearing the friction materials by holding the bike against the brake. This is one of the reasons why I avoid used bikes. Its always a lottery.

If by warmed up, you mean 45 minutes of the highway then yeah. That's how long it takes for my bike to stop doing it. Right after start up, on an incline, you could probably break something it's so bad.

Anyway, I finally took it in yesterday and feel pretty good about it. The mechanic seemed to know what he was talking about and it most likely needs adjustment to the engagement point. Wish I had read about that first but since it's under warranty what the hell. I'll keep you guys posted.

 

[El Toro]

...

Engagement was as smooth as silk.

Your bike was warmed up.

If the bike isn't warmed up, you can get this jump against the brake. It's not a defect.

Once its warmed up, you can't induce it and instead you see what you've described. Not so good for the bike though, as you are wearing the friction materials by holding the bike against the brake. This is one of the reasons why I avoid used bikes. It's always a lottery.

Tried it this morning. Started it cold and immediately rev'd it against the back brake then the front. Even with the high cold revs it behaved perfectly, no jerkiness at all. Still smooth as silk.

I did not say that you WOULD get that behavior. I said you CAN get that behavior, and perhaps I should have gone further and modified the Can to be a Could, but in American vernacular, there is no use of the subjunctive anymore. Subjunctive is implied.

In any event, yours is adjusted, and perhaps even "worn in" to the point where you don't see this.

That's great!

 

[Auron]

So if it came out of adjustment as the bike wore in (got bad around 600 miles) once they fix it do you normally have to worry about it again?

 

[Auron]

Just talked to the shop. They don't have the first damn clue what's wrong, so they are going to call Yamaha. Good news is, it does what wrong every single time and he commented on how horrendous it bucks on an incline. I can't even imagine how much this would have cost without the warranty.

 

[mcatrophy]

...I did not say that you WOULD get that behavior. I said you CAN get that behavior, and perhaps I should have gone further and modified the Can to be a Could, but in American vernacular, there is no use of the subjunctive anymore. Subjunctive is implied.

In any event, yours is adjusted, and perhaps even "worn in" to the point where you don't see this.

That's great!

I'd say you should never

get that behaviour. I don't think there is any significant "wearing in" for anything to do with clutch operation, and the only adjustment I can see (after scouring

the workshop manual) is for the engine speed at which the clutch engages/disengages.

Yes, mine suffered from minor juddering, which is why I soaked its clutch, and that seems to have cured it (at least for a few thousand miles). But that was nothing like the violent behaviour shown in



I'm sure with Yamaha behind them they will fix it. The only problem will be how long it takes. But, if you haven't lost all faith in the bike (which I could understand), once it's working properly you will find it's the best thing since sliced bread, as the vast majority of us YCC-S users think.

 

[BwanaDik]

I'm rather surprised to see, but nowhere in this topic the adjustment of clutch engagement point is mentioned: I looked at the video and the bike's behaviour is the same I experienced when, as I tried to fine-adjust it, the engagement point was set too low.
I do believe that this procedure (well explained in the service manual) would help a lot or even solve your problem.

...I did not say that you WOULD get that behavior. I said you CAN get that behavior, and perhaps I should have gone further and modified the Can to be a Could, but in American vernacular, there is no use of the subjunctive anymore. Subjunctive is implied.

In any event, yours is adjusted, and perhaps even "worn in" to the point where you don't see this.

That's great!

I'd say you should never

get that behaviour. I don't think there is any significant "wearing in" for anything to do with clutch operation, and the only adjustment I can see (after scouring

the workshop manual) is for the engine speed at which the clutch engages/disengages.

Agreed. I've done the "against the brake" test also from 10 seconds after having started it (stone cold) to full temp bars (full hot) and never had an issue. Also cold from a steep uphill parking slot against the curb, two up with full gear. Nary a problem with 60,000 miles

Yes, mine suffered from minor juddering, which is why I soaked its clutch, and that seems to have cured it (at least for a few thousand miles). But that was nothing like the violent behaviour shown in

Lazybear, can you give us the page/chapter number in the service manual that shows how to adjust the engagement point? Mcatrophy is rarely wrong but there's always a first time

 

[mcatrophy]

Lazybear, can you give us the page/chapter number in the service manual that shows how to adjust the engagement point? Mcatrophy is rarely wrong but there's always a first time

Ok, I give in, there is one adjustment that at first sight seems to be mechanical, and would be done after a master cylinder rebuild (or presumably at the factory), and depends on a shim thickness. It is documented in these two manual pages:

(Click on image for larger view)



The "normal" use for Sh__66 is the engine speed for engagement, documented here:



I don't know what the "shim thickness" adjustment does, but as far as I can tell, Sh__66 only ever changes engagement speed, not mechanical clearance.

Needless to say, I've had no first hand experience of a clutch master cylinder rebuild.

Incidentally, the manual is wrong when it says "operate the hand shift lever (shift up/down) four times", it only requires it operated once (at least for my '06, and it's an '06 manual this was taken from).

 

[Auron]

Well, I guess they fixed it. I'm going to get it today and hopefully eveything will be fine. If all is well I'm sure I will really start to enjoy the bike. Supposed to get up to 50F (Yay) this week so I'll have a chance to ride it.

 

[mcatrophy]

Well, I guess they fixed it. ...

Great news!

See if you can find out what was wrong and what they did to fix it. That would add to the "Knowledge of the Collective".

 

[Auron]

So, the clutch was engaging too soon. Before, as soon as I touched the throttle the clutch would start to engage. Now I need to give it some revs before it will start to move forward. I'd say it shifts better once underway but now I see why some owners have trouble at parking-lot speeds. The clutch engaging and disengaging at higher revs makes it a lot harder to control. The mechanic was great and explained how this adjustment can only be done electronically through the dash, it's not mechanically adjustable. These systems are extremely sensitive! The system is great, but will never be as smooth as a manually operated clutch could be. I can't say for sure yet how much I like it because I have to re-learn how to ride it smoothly. Probably have to learn how to drag that rear brake.

However, I was thinking about what I've done to this bike and when. The problem may very well have started when my Dad and I synced the throttle plates. Thanks for all your help everyone.

 

[Denver_FJR]

Good to hear you got things straightened out. If you don't mind, who did the service?

 

[Auron]

His name Jose at Coyote. Really good experience there.

 

[BwanaDik]

Excellent that you got it worked out! Good job!

The clutch engaging and disengaging at higher revs makes it a lot harder to control.
What are "higer revs"? I just checked mine and the clutch starts engaging about 1600-1800 RPM's which I think is about right. Fully engaged shortly thereafter.

The system is great, but will never be as smooth as a manually operated clutch could be. Probably a number of us around here that would argue this point however we could all do that forever.

I can't say for sure yet how much I like it because I have to re-learn how to ride it smoothly. Probably have to learn how to drag that rear brake. Yes, that is a big part of slow speed manuevering. A number of threads around here on AE riding techniques. Remember, it can shift like a ton of bricks and bang around somewhat if you baby it at low speeds and low revs. Mine does, hot or cold, when I'm puttering out of the neignborhood. Run it up to 1/3 throttle and 5,000 RPM and you can barely feel it shift.

However, I was thinking about what I've done to this bike and when. The problem may very well have started when my Dad and I synced the throttle plates. Thanks for all your help everyone. Glad to help, AE'er got to stick together! If you can't find the technique threads that answer your operating questions, PM one of us for more details.

 

[Auron]

Good deal. I'll try and see at what point it engages but I doubt it's too high even though that's what I thought at first. I'd be curious if the engagement point can be adjusted without special equipment. Too cheap to buy the technical manual so far.

 

[odot]

Just think..........one day......when the block II fjrs come out.....you may be able to cruise over 81 MPH.