Another CCS100 cruise control on the FJR1300AS (AE)

[mcatrophy]

The only reason I went to an FJR was because my left little finger was in agony after using the clutch lever for more than a few gear changes (my body is older then my mind), so Yammy's YCC-S was a godsend.

Recently my right little finger has started to complain when on extended trips, brought to a head on the Continental trip I did earlier in the year, where it was giving me strong suggestions that I needed to do something about it. I've already unwound the throttle spring and improved the grip to reduce hand pressure, but it's getting worse.

The obvious aid to allow me to continue riding is a cruise control.

I did a lot of ferreting around here and elsewhere, and made the decision to go with the Audiovox CCS100, all part of a price/performance/ease of mounting compromise. Purchased from Murphys' (no comebacks

), it took about 1 day to get to UK customs and a further 3 days to get to me (including the time to ask me for import duty and VAT).

I took my time over fitting it, and went down some wrong routes in the process, but the final fitment looks OK and seems to work reasonably well. I only needed a bit more vacuum pipe, a few nuts and bolts, heat-shrink insulation and a piece of aluminium sheet for a control mounting bracket. And plastic wire ties. Lots of plastic wire ties.

For my full pictorial record of what I did (including my mistakes the blind alleys I went down all my experimentation), click here.

A few sample pics (click on image for larger view):

Actuator and vacuum reservoir mounting (pictures enhanced to show detail, they're much less obvious in reality)



Couple of views of the control panel (beside my heated vest controller)



Detail of the throttle cable connection and the under-tank run of the actuator cable



When I came to test it, It took about three minutes to get used to it taking over the throttle. It might take you longer if you're not used to a car cruise control, it's initially a weird sensation to have the throttle taken out of your control.

In operation I have to say it's not perfect. The basic problem is that once in control, it moves the throttle very slowly. This exhibits itself in a number of ways, e.g. you are in manual doing your wanted speed. You press the "SET" button. After a very short delay, the throttle does a little jerk and increases speed a little as the actuator takes over, it than takes several tens of seconds to slow down to the set speed. Also, when you meet a hill, the bike will change speed, then very gradually haul back to the set speed. Takes a bit of getting used to when the cruise control in my (wife's) car is almost seamless.

Using the "Accel" and "Coast" switches is a waste of time.

Possibly changing the DIP switch settings for Medium would improve this, I may experiment later (I'm doing nothing to disturb it until after another week touring in Scotland in a few days time

. Taking son on his Hornet, his first tour, but that's another story).

Couple of other things, when changing gear it doesn't always unset. With a conventional gear-change, if you pull the clutch the engine speed immediately rises which tells the actuator to disengage. With YCC-S, just flicking from 5th to 4th (which I often do to initiate a deceleration) is so fast a change that the engine speed merely slurs to the new rpm, and often doesn't "excite" the actuator into disengaging. This is a nuisance because there is no "unset" control, so you have to touch the brake (or turn the control off) when you realise it's started to control the speed in the new gear. Possibly fitting the vehicle speed sensor would fix this. The lack of an unset control also means that when coming up to slower moving traffic you have to touch the brake rather than just closing the throttle.

Don't think from the above that I'm disappointed, I'm not. These issues all came out in my investigations (except the unreliable gear change unset). The first time I used it on a main road, after about five minutes I realised my right hand was so much more relaxed than usual. The nagging discomfort that I was always trying to ignore had disappeared. This (and not having to watch out for my speed so much with all our speed cameras) makes the few compromises well worth while.

[edit]

I later found that my sealing of the actuator meant the vacuum couldn't be released quickly, this led to the poor behaviour. It was very significantly improved after I provided an air vent into the actuator body, see posts #14 and #22.

(With many thanks to ionbeam for providing info on the insides of the actuator and making me think.)

[/edit]

Below are some of the references I used. Apologies to anyone whose ideas I've used but I haven't acknowledged.

• Murph's cataloge entry - where I ordered mine from
  
• FJRCarShopGuy's FJR1300A installation - a very detailed pictorial "How To"
  
• smitt141's FJR1300AE installation - the neatest servo mount
  
• kaitsdad's actuator installation FJR1300A - uses the exhaust hangers to mount the servo
  
• ionbeam's actuator installation on a 2004 FJR - uses the exhaust hangers to mount the servo
  
• Arlen Bloom's FJR1300 installation - a lot of useful detail
  
• Murphs' example installation on a 1991 Concours - useful wiring diagrams, mounting and waterproofing ideas
  
• Bruce Pickett's installation on a Honda Pacific Coast PC800 - some useful ideas and very clear information
  
• FJR1300A specification - data includes rear wheel suspension travel
  
• The Boomer Zoomers's (???) installation - more interesting input
  

 

[FarWestFastEddie]

Mcatrophy,

Changing the dip switches to med weight and hi hp will improve the response time for the CC to take hold, I have a Rollie Throttle Modification Switch instead of the AVCC control panel, and the resume and accell do work, just hold the switch on for longer than 1 second.

hope this helps.

FWFE

 

[mcatrophy]

Mcatrophy,

Changing the dip switches to med weight and hi hp will improve the response time for the CC to take hold, I have a Rollie Throttle Modification Switch instead of the AVCC control panel, and the resume and accell do work, just hold the switch on for longer than 1 second.

hope this helps.

FWFE

Thanks for that. I'm sure I've seen a comment from you in another thread about "Medium", I'll probably try it in a couple of weeks.

Perhaps you can tell me something. If set at (say) 60, I increase to 70 using the throttle, if I press the "set" button, will it take up at 70? I've tried this, but (due to congestion) I haven't yet succeeded. The next time I go out, I'll be being followed by my son. He's not very experienced yet, and I don't want him confused by my touching the brakes to disengage followed by an increase in speed. If you see what I mean.

 

[mcatrophy]

Mcatrophy,

Changing the dip switches to med weight and hi hp will improve the response time for the CC to take hold, I have a Rollie Throttle Modification Switch instead of the AVCC control panel, and the resume and accell do work, just hold the switch on for longer than 1 second.

hope this helps.

FWFE

Just for the record, I tried FWFE's suggestion of "med weight and hi hp".

I found it became vicious in take-up on setting, it would hunt by several mph when set at about 40 on a level road, and, when slightly down-hill, it was unstable enough to cause noises from the drive-train backlash.

Maybe it would be better at higher speeds, but this behaviour at lower speeds is unacceptable to me.

So, thanks for the suggestion, worth a try, but I've restored it to "low weight, high horsepower".

 

[Pepperell]

You may want to check cable slack; the less the better on both the AVCC and the two manual throttle cables.

 

[ionbeam]

Cable slack is defiantly important as Pepperell states. This is the first thing to check. You want as little slack as you can get and still be assured that the throttle tab will always return to the stop. Since you have unwound one turn of the throttle return spring this may affect how much slack you can have.

Are you using a vacuum accumulator? How many vacuum ports have you tapped? What brand/type of vacuum check valve did you use? Talking with another Forum member about the way his cruise works it looks like check valves may affect the throttle bodies and cruise behavior.

The cruise control looks at action and response to both regulate speed and for error checking. There is some point where the cruise asks for action and the response is either too slow, too fast, or the result is outside the window of acceptability. An example of this is when the bike is on the center stand and someone presses the speed set button. Because there is no load on the rear wheel the response of the rear wheel is so rapid that the cruise sees an error and shuts off. On a bike with a clutch, when the clutch is pulled in the rpm's change too fast causing the cruise to disengage. As you note, your AE to just too good at shifting You may want to try installing the Jumper for an automatic transmission instead of a manual transmission

.

When you quickly and momentarily tap-tap the set and resume button the speed setting will change by 0.5 mph with each tap. I can't feel my motorcycle speed change but watching the speed display on my GPS does confirm that the set speed did indeed change. If you repeatedly tap the button the cruise will wait until it is sure there isn't another tap coming, then it starts to implement the requested speed change; you will notice a delay before it performs the action.

If I want to change my speed up or down and I'm in a 'casual' situation I use the buttons on the cruise to adjust my speed by holding the set or resume button. If I'm in a situation where I need positive control (close or heavy traffic) I use the throttle or brakes then reset my speed using the set button.

SET SPEED : After turning the system On, wait at least 3 seconds before attempting to set your speed. To operate the system, drive the car at a steady speed above 35 M.P.H.
Press the SET / COAST switch and release it, then slowly remove your foot from the accelerator pedal. Your SET SPEED is now programmed into the cruise control's memory, and your driving speed should remain within 2 M.P.H. of your set speed.

If you want to increase your speed, simply press on the accelerator pedal. When you release the pedal, you will return to your original SET SPEED.

ACCEL : You can increase your SET SPEED using the RESUME / ACCEL feature. Your vehicle will accelerate as you hold this switch to the RESUME / ACCEL position. When you release the switch, your SET SPEED will be re - programmed to the present speed of the vehicle.

TAP UP : You can also increase your SET SPEED gradually by quickly pressing and releasing the RESUME/ACCEL switch. Each time you press and release the switch, your speed will increase by approximately 1/2 M.P.H.

TAP DOWN : You can also decrease your SET SPEED gradually by quickly pressing and releasing the SET/COAST switch. Each time you press and release the switch, your speed will decrease by approximately 1/2 M.P.H.

COAST : To reduce your SET SPEED, press and hold the SET / COAST button. This erases the previously programmed SET SPEED, and allows the vehicle to coast. Just before slowing to the speed you want, release the button. Your present speed will be re - programmed as the new SET SPEED, providing the vehicle is traveling faster than 35 M.P.H.

 

[phroenips]

Perhaps you can tell me something. If set at (say) 60, I increase to 70 using the throttle, if I press the "set" button, will it take up at 70? I've tried this, but (due to congestion) I haven't yet succeeded.

Yes, it will, but you'll have that surge again, and it will eventually settle back down to 70

 

[mcatrophy]

Thanks for the replies, people.

You may want to check cable slack; the less the better on both the AVCC and the two manual throttle cables.

Actuator cable and throttle slack:

The chain slack has virtually none, you can push the chain sideways a little, but there is no loose play. The throttle cables are about "book", something like 2mm. Normal throttle use is very smooth even during off-to-on throttle occasions.

As a slight aside, I'm not sure what difference slack in the actuator cable would make. When you press the "set" button to start control, the actuator cable must be very loose (you've got the throttle open already), so off-throttle slack would not make much difference. And, once under cruise control, the actuator cable must be tight because it's holding the throttle open, all it should be doing is pulling more hard or less hard. Only if it's lost control down a steep hill would it go completely slack.

Cable slack is defiantly important as Pepperell states. This is the first thing to check. You want as little slack as you can get and still be assured that the throttle tap will always return to the stop. Since you have unwound one turn of the throttle return spring this may affect how much slack you can have.

See above for slack. As you say, I have unwound the spring, but the throttle still snaps shut with no detectable slowness (is that a word?).

Are you using a vacuum accumulator? How many vacuum ports have you tapped? What brand/type of vacuum check valve did you use? Talking with another Forum member about the way his cruise works it looks like check valves may affect the throttle bodies and cruise behavior.

I am using the Autovox vacuum chamber supplied to go with the CCS100 by Murph. It has its own vacuum check valve (verified working by sucking and blowing), I am using one vacuum port (the #1 TBS sync port). So far I've not noticed anything that would make me suspect lack of vacuum.

The cruise control looks at action and response to both regulate speed and for error checking. There is some point where the cruise asks for action and the response is either too slow, too fast, or the result is outside the window of acceptability. An example of this is when the bike is on the center stand and someone presses the speed set button. Because there is no load on the rear wheel the response of the rear wheel is so rapid that the cruise sees an error and shuts off. On a bike with a clutch, when the clutch is pulled in the rpm's change too fast causing the cruise to disengage. As you note, your AE to just too good at shifting

You may want to try installing the Jumper for an automatic transmission instead of a manual transmission

.

I understand closed loop control of systems and the "out-of-control" shut-down (I sometimes need one of those myself

). I don't really mind whether it chooses to disengage or not during a gear change, I just stated its behaviour as a characteristic.

The idea of putting in the Auto link is interesting, it's not an option Autovox suggest when not using a vehicle speed signal. It might be something I could try even if only to get a consistent behaviour. Trouble is, every time I do a change (DIP switch or link), I have to unseal all my good works, clean it all up, re-seal it (can't guarantee dry weather here), and worse still, wait half a day for the sealant I'm using to cure

.

When you quickly and momentarily tap-tap the set and resume button the speed setting will change by 0.5 mph with each tap. I can't feel my motorcycle speed change but watching the speed display on my GPS does confirm that the set speed did indeed change. If you repeatedly tap the button the cruise will wait until it is sure there isn't another tap coming, then it starts to implement the requested speed change; you will notice a delay before it performs the action.

If I want to change my speed up or down and I'm in a 'casual' situation I use the buttons on the cruise to adjust my speed by holding the set or resume button. If I'm in a situation where I need positive control (close or heavy traffic) I use the throttle or brakes then reset my speed using the set button.

I've having to learn smoother riding habits, anticipating earlier slowing for traffic I'm coming up to. Trouble is, slow too soon on a motorway and some car is going to jump in front of you. It's a fine balance ... So I suspect I'm too impatient to let it do its thing

.

Anyway, it's working well enough. I've done perhaps 600 miles using it "in anger", it's certainly helped my ageing finger-joints, reduced "performance award" awareness tension, saved fuel, all in all very much better than not having it.

 

[Rollie]

mcatrophy, that is a well detailed installation that should be of great use to many. Good work!

Unless there's something peculiar to the AE, although I've never read of any, I can't see where you may have gone awry. I toyed with the dip switch combination and went back to the 1/4/7 w/o the jumper that you’re using. I find that works best for me.

ionbeam may have a valid point in that there has to be minimal slack in the chain. On my last installation, I was having similar slow engagement problems that you’re describing so I opened it up and while I was in there, performed the throttle spring unwind. Whether it was one or both of these adjustments, it’s worked as good as any car CC since.

Given the amount of rain you folks get, is it possible that moisture is finding its way into the servo unit? And not being familiar with the AE, would it not be possible to find a dry spot for the servo?

On the moisture issue, some of us have discarded the control pad and replaced it with a weather-proof toggle switch. Much easier to use too

 

[Pepperell]

Or both switches...

 

[mcatrophy]

mcatrophy, that is a well detailed installation that should be of great use to many. Good work!

We try

.

Unless there's something peculiar to the AE, although I've never read of any, I can't see where you may have gone awry. I toyed with the dip switch combination and went back to the 1/4/7 w/o the jumper that you're using. I find that works best for me.

I don't think it's an "AE" issue, in terms of throttle response there is no difference between the conventional and the YCCS. My feeling is that, during the initial take-up on set, the servo is very slow to respond to the engine speed increase, it is also too slow to respond under control to the speed changing with hills. With the "medium" setting, it moves the actuator more quickly, but doesn't seem to respond to errors any faster. Hence the more vicious snatch on setting, and the control instability.

ionbeam may have a valid point in that there has to be minimal slack in the chain. On my last installation, I was having similar slow engagement problems that you're describing so I opened it up and while I was in there, performed the throttle spring unwind. Whether it was one or both of these adjustments, it's worked as good as any car CC since.

As I said before, I've essentially no slack on the chain and my throttle spring is unwound, but I still have a reasonable closing tension. And again, I don't believe a slack chain will make any significant difference.

Given the amount of rain you folks get, is it possible that moisture is finding its way into the servo unit? And not being familiar with the AE, would it not be possible to find a dry spot for the servo?

I'm absolutely sure no water has got into the servo, my first tests were in dry conditions.

There is a "better" place, as used first by smitt141 (I think), under the tank in front of the engine - this is his picture:

For a couple of reasons I chose not to put it there - I had limited time for my installation before a trip, so I didn't want any risk of possible snags with the necessary removal of the cooling pipe needed to get it there, and I want to be able to easily remove the CC should I sell the bike to someone who wants it stock. (In the UK, with the possible exception of pipes, modifications generally make the bike less desirable on the second-hand market. Since I shall only sell the bike when I'm no longer capable of riding it, I don't want it too hard to remove my additions.)

On the moisture issue, some of us have discarded the control pad and replaced it with a weather-proof toggle switch. Much easier to use too

I went for the Audiovox control panel simply to get a neat installation and with all the switches labelled so that I don't have to remember which is which. Ok, I know I would learn unlabelled ones eventually (I can be very slow these days), but I'd have lots of "don't know what's going on" in the mean time. I'm very happy with my waterproofing of it, and all the switches do seem to do what they are supposed to. I just wish there was an "unset" switch. I'm having evil thoughts

about modifying the switch unit so that (perhaps) the "ON" switch will work as an "UNSET" switch if the unit is in the "set" state. It would have to do the equivalent of "OFF" then "ON", but shouldn't be too difficult to implement.

As an aside, I had thought about designing my own cruise control, my idea was to use a stepper motor to drive the throttle directly, and a micro-controller as the "brains". In the end I chose to use the commercial unit because I wasn't sure the stepper motor wouldn't put too much drag on the return spring, and by definition a stepper motor works in discrete increments, so might never sit at exactly the right setting. I wanted to be sure the CC would work straight away because of my deteriorating finger joints

.

 

[ionbeam]

As an aside, I had thought about designing my own cruise control, my idea was to use a stepper motor to drive the throttle directly, and a micro-controller as the "brains". In the end I chose to use the commercial unit because I wasn't sure the stepper motor wouldn't put too much drag on the return spring, and by definition a stepper motor works in discrete increments, so might never sit at exactly the right setting. I wanted the CC to work straight away because of my deteriorating finger joints

.

Audiovox used an electric motor controller for the brain. I posted these pictures several years ago.

 

[mcatrophy]

...

...

It just occurs to me.

I've gone to all this trouble to seal my actuator against moisture ingress. I have probably sealed it against air ingress as well. Maybe the only way air can get in is down the operating cable. That might change its characteristics somewhat.

Perhaps I need an air bleed into its body.

Thoughts?

 

[mcatrophy]

...

I've gone to all this trouble to seal my actuator against moisture ingress. I have probably sealed it against air ingress as well. Maybe the only way air can get in is down the operating cable. That might change its characteristics somewhat.

...

Since we've been having something of an Indian summer, record temperatures, cloudless skies, NO RAIN!!! and to answer my own question, I removed the cable cover I had so carefully sealed and ran the bike with the rear of the actuator naked.



A big improvement in its characteristics, much less overshoot on take-up and significantly better speed control when on hills

.

Ergo, it needs an air inlet to the actuator.

So I'm going to have to create a weather-proof air bleed into the actuator body. When She lets me have some more time to play (as She puts it).

 

[ionbeam]

What a great find! Who woulda thunk.

 

[FarWestFastEddie]

So, let me get this right, AS I have had the AVCC drop out on hills during hot weather, If I add a vent hole to the rear of the actuator, this may cure the hot/hill issue?

I apologize for asking a dumb question as I have only spent a few moments trying to catchup on this thread and have not digested all the technical info that has passed. Alan, seems to me you are verifying this possible solution? Like the AVCC was fighting its own vacume due to lack of air?

FWFE

 

[ionbeam]

DIP Switch #7 is supposed to be OFF for a Gen II. First check this. If it is OFF then you may have a vacuum problem.

Does your speed sag on hills then the cruise shuts off or does the cruise suddenly shut off? Do you have a vacuum accumulator? Are you using vacuum check valves on your vacuum lines?

 

[mcatrophy]

DIP Switch #7 is supposed to be OFF for a Gen II. First check this. If it is OFF then you may have a vacuum problem.

...

Don't know where you got this from, GenII people are still taking the speed signal from the coil. Mine works pretty well (now

) with #7 ON. Maybe someone is taking their speed signal from somewhere else?

So, let me get this right, AS I have had the AVCC drop out on hills during hot weather, If I add a vent hole to the rear of the actuator, this may cure the hot/hill issue?

I apologize for asking a dumb question as I have only spent a few moments trying to catchup on this thread and have not digested all the technical info that has passed. Alan, seems to me you are verifying this possible solution? Like the AVCC was fighting its own vacume due to lack of air?

FWFE

I've said this before, you'd be dumb if you don't know the answer and don't ask the question.

...

Does your speed sag on hills then the cruise shuts off or does the cruise suddenly shut off? Do you have a vacuum accumulator? Are you using vacuum check valves on your vacuum lines?

Very good questions. If you run out of vacuum, the CC will recognise it no longer has control and give up trying. If it simply cuts, there must be another explanation, particularly if only when hot. The latter sounds like an electronic problem, unless you get a sudden vacuum leak when something gets soft enough to let air through?

 

[FarWestFastEddie]

To answer a few questions,

Alan, My CC seems to falter for a second, then drop off, more so in high heat conditions, though I have had it shut out in the cooler climes of the northcoast.

I do have a vacume resevoir and a check vlv, the system holds very tight. I do have dip switch 7 set to off. I have even checked my vacume lines for kinks.

I am taking speed from the coil. The shutdown is not a big deal, more of an inconvienence. like life its self, I deal with the bumps.

FWFE