Another Tick Question

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I have a new FJR on order and the waiting is killing me like everyone else. The FJR Forum has helped quite a bit. Misery loves company you know. Besides that, the FJR specific information that I will have picked up by the time my bike arrives will be very helpful. I thank you all for that.

I have three "tick" related questions;

If your FJR has developed a "tick" what engine oil do you use?

Has anyone tried upper cylinder lubricants or "top oils" in an effort to minimize wear on the valve stems and valve guides?

Do you think that using a product like Mystery Oil in the gas might be beneficial?

 
After reading many peoples take on the ticking Valve issue, I am going to richen up my air/fuel mixture. Most bikes come form the factory running lean so they can pass emissions testing. Running lean will cause you motor to run hotter and tends to lead to valve and valve guide problems. If you bike is running way to lean you will burn your valves and possibly you pistons. You have to watch out because if you run to rich you will foul your plugs. The best solution would be to have your bike dynoed and have the air fuel mixture monitored. 3.5-4% would be the target Fuel mixture you would want.

 
After reading many peoples take on the ticking Valve issue, I am going to richen up my air/fuel mixture. Most bikes come from the factory running lean so they can pass emissions testing. Running lean will cause you motor to run hotter and tends to lead to valve and valve guide problems. If you bike is running way to lean you will burn your valves and possibly you pistons. You have to watch out because if you run to rich you will foul your plugs. The best solution would be to have your bike dynoed and have the air fuel mixture monitored. 3.5-4% would be the target Fuel mixture you would want.
That sounds like good reasoning. So, do you have a Power Commander? Maybe I should get one once my bike gets back from the shop.

 
After reading many peoples take on the ticking Valve issue, I am going to richen up my air/fuel mixture. Most bikes come form the factory running lean so they can pass emissions testing. Running lean will cause you motor to run hotter and tends to lead to valve and valve guide problems. If you bike is running way to lean you will burn your valves and possibly you pistons. You have to watch out because if you run to rich you will foul your plugs. The best solution would be to have your bike dynoed and have the air fuel mixture monitored. 3.5-4% would be the target Fuel mixture you would want.
This argument holds some merit, except that there doesn't seem to be the slightest correlation between tickers and use of a PC. In fact, some of the most well-known tickers have had PC's.

And you could potentially come up with an opposite scenario - that use of PC's tends to make the valves run too cold and/or accelerate the build up of carbon on the valves.

Use a PC if you like, but I sincerely doubt you're helping (or hurting) your ticker chances.

- Mark

 
Do yu think the PC actually causes carbon build up in the head? Rich or Lean? Gee maybe I shouldn't put mine back on if it can causes the tick.

 
I don't think there has been any "solution" or "reason" as to what causes the dreaded tick. It seems nothing triggers any explanation: pipes/no pipes; pc/non-pc; syn oil/dino juice; regular/high-test gas; ride hard/ride easy.

It either does or does not tick. God only knows, and he ain't tellin'! Maybe it's just "bad Kharma"? Bad joo-joo? A voodoo hex from cagers? Gremlins?

 
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Do yu think the PC actually causes carbon build up in the head? Rich or Lean? Gee maybe I shouldn't put mine back on if it can causes the tick.
Well, since there is an argument both ways, and considering the repair will most likely be covered under warranty for the duration of my expected ownership, I'd tend to run it stock, not giving the factory any excuses to blame it on adding non-OEM parts to the fuel delivery system.

 
Do yu think the PC actually causes carbon build up in the head? Rich or Lean? Gee maybe I shouldn't put mine back on if it can causes the tick.
I was just hypothesizing to show that "richer is better" isn't necessarily true. I have no idea whether a PC might cause more carbon built up. It might. It mighit not too.

That's why you're grasping at straws to do things to make your bike run cooler or richer as "ticker fixes". It's impossible to fix something when you don't know what is broken.

- Mark

 
I would guess that if you had a PCIII installed and you had a proper Custom map done on a dyno, that the air fuel mixture would not be the cause of the ticking. My point is that most if not all motors are detuned to meet emisions standards. I would bet that the FJR is no exception. Running lean is known to cause vale problems because of the high temps it creates. If you pull your plugs and they are white your running to lean. This is a know problem with valves and pistons.

I don't mean to start anything but here goes. I have noticed that in my Warrior that I get excessive carbon buildup when I run high octain gas for long periods of time. I have had my heads off 3 times in the last year for other engine mods ahev fould this to be true for my bike. The higher octain burns colder and is nessary for high compression applications but isn't needed in most stock motorcycles. Many would argue that using too high of an octain is not better for your motor (I don't want to go there) But I have noticed excess carbon buildup with high octain.

 
Time out..... An FJR has an O2 sensor and a catalytic converter. It doesn't run "lean". Cats must be fed a stochiometric A/F mixture (chemically correct A/F mixture) in order to operate. The FJR must be running at 14.7 when in closed loop control. No way around it. They wouldn't have gone to the expense of closed loop control, an O2 sensor and a catalytic converter if it wasn't going to run at stoch..... Stochiometric is NOT lean nor is it "hot'.

Older motorcycle engines were indeed lean to aid in the elimination of HC and CO (especially CO) but three way cats and lean do not play together....so the FJR is not lean. IF the engine has a cat and an O2 sensor then it is a valid assumption that the cat is a three way cat. Older cats were simply oxidizing cats and would work lean...but then there is no need for an O2 sensor. You only put an O2 sensor on when you want it to run at 14.7:1 and that is only because the three way cat on the FJR needs 14.7:1 to operate.

Richen it up if you want but that is not the problem.

As I have stated elsewhere, after looking at ticking valve stems under an SEM and reading all the information put forward todate the whole issue seems to revolve around the valve stems/valve guides not getting quite enough oil to keep them happy. They scuff, score, transfer material, wear, and start to tick as a result of running too dry.

I had suspected a problem with the valve stem surface finish or chrome nodules in the chrome plate on the valve stem but that was NOT the case in the parts that I examined. The parts looked typical of a lubrication failure and scuffing and scoring from lack or inadequate lube.

This phenonenon has been seen on other engines in other applications (by myself) so it is not a mystery nor impossible. The scuffing and eventual "failure" of the valve/valve guide is random and rare in most cases like this. The guides do not need much lubrication as the valve stems are chrome plated and the guides are a powder metal material. It usually boils down to a combination of clearances, prelube when the engine was build, operation schedule or duty cycle, etc.....

The valves and guides in an engine do not need much lube at all. Once they break in they can run virtually dry. If the engine was assembled at the factory with no prelube or inadequate or inappropriate prelube on the valve stems when brand new it could easily lead to some initial scuffing that snowballs into the failures seen. I have seen this happen in other production applications so I know it can happen and ruin an otherwise perfectly designed system. Sometimes the initial scuffing from breakin can take tens of thousands of miles to manifest itself as a problem so there is no initial way to determine "exactly" when it occurred.

I have not personally verified the design change but was told that Yamaha did indeed change the valve stem seal design to a "wetter" version to allow more lube down the guide. The part number did not change according to the parts list but supposedly the valve stem seal did. If this is the case it really is a smoking gun the quest to determine and prove the failure mode. Yamaha may have wanted to make the valve stem seal change as a running change and simply make it as transparent as possible by not changing the part number.

My guess is that most all of the FJR engines will never have a tick problem. The type of lube, lube added to the oil, etc. will not help or affect the situation in all likelyhood if it is the valve stem seal being too dry. Richening or leaning the engine for this problem would have no effect.

If the seals were change (supposedly in 05 models...???) then the incidence of tickers should decrease dramatically with the newer models and certainly the 06 engines will have the revised parts in them and should be no problem.

Just my speculation and 2cents.....your results may vary.

 
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I would guess that if you had a PCIII installed and you had a proper Custom map done on a dyno, that the air fuel mixture would not be the cause of the ticking. My point is that most if not all motors are detuned to meet emisions standards. I would bet that the FJR is no exception. Running lean is known to cause vale problems because of the high temps it creates. If you pull your plugs and they are white your running to lean. This is a know problem with valves and pistons.
I don't mean to start anything but here goes. I have noticed that in my Warrior that I get excessive carbon buildup when I run high octain gas for long periods of time. I have had my heads off 3 times in the last year for other engine mods ahev fould this to be true for my bike. The higher octain burns colder and is nessary for high compression applications but isn't needed in most stock motorcycles. Many would argue that using too high of an octain is not better for your motor (I don't want to go there) But I have noticed excess carbon buildup with high octain.
Higher octane fuel does not "burn colder". It is more resistent to detonation but the burn temp and rate is the same. Age old discussion. The fact is that , within practical reason, the burn rates and temps of preminum and regular gasolines are the same.

If you are running the engine richer then that would cause colder exhaust temps and more carbon buildup, yes. But not because of the premium or the octane rating. Simply because of the mixture.

 
If the seals were change (supposedly in 05 models...???) then the incidence of tickers should decrease dramatically with the newer models and certainly the 06 engines will have the revised parts in them and should be no problem.
Just my speculation and 2cents.....your results may vary.
Jestal, the question has been previously asked, but never answered -- if the valve stem seals are the cause of the "tick", why does the problem seem to be predominantly in the #1 cyclinder rather than occuring randomly in all four cyclinders -- and why does it only occur in the exhaust valve guides?

The answer to the latter that I have heard is that the intake valves run cooler due to the gas flowing over them and if so, then it would appear that excess heat on the exhaust valves, maybe in conjunction with a dry valve stem, is causing the tick. Could the exhaust valves on the #1, and maybe #2 cyclinders be running hotter than the other cyclinders, perhaps because the oil is flowing right to left across the head?

 
Intake valve stems rarely, if ever, cause a problem. They run far far cooler and there is vacuum on the intake port side of the guide always trying to pull some oil down the guide. Even a "dry" valve stem seal will allow a lot more oil down the intake as compared to the exhaust. There is no steady vacuum in the exhaust port, rather an overlying higher pressure from backpressure in the system so oil does not naturely tend to flow down the exhaust valve guide as with the intake. Plus, the exhaust valves run far far hotter as you would expect.

It is very common for many engines to run distinctly different valve stem seals on the intake and exhaust as well as distinctly different valve guides and valve stem surface treatment. Most all engines have chrome plated exhaust valve stems for scuffing resistence while intakes will be plain or just chrome flashed. I a lot of cases you can run exhaust valve guides with little or no seals due to the lack of vacuum in the port constantly sucking oil down the guide. An intake guide with no seal would be constant blue smoke.

The heat causes several problems. First, it tends to vaporize any oil that is there reducing what little lubricating properties it has. Secondly, it caused the exhaust valve stem to expand more, reducing clearance in the guide. This alone can lead to scuffing if the cold build clearances are not correct. Third, the exhaust valve guide itself runs hotter as well as the parent material it is pressed into. This may be the most important thing, here. The Exhaust valve guide projects slightly into the exhaust port so one end of the guide is running a lot hotter than the other. This cause uneven expansion of the guide and the parent metal surrounding the guide. Uneven expansion means that the valve guide, which is ideally a perfect column, becomes somewhat "banana shaped" to exagerate. The banana shape of the guide when hot ditates the clearance requirements so that the guide will never bind on the stem even when it is hot.

Possibly the left side guides run a little cooler than the right side due to coolant flow patterns thru the head??? Maybe there is some influence of the oil flow inside the head causing a slight temperature gradient across the head as measured at the valve guides. There is always the possibility that the left cylinders run a little leaner than the right cylinders. The O2 sensor measures the sum output of all the cylinders. Some individual cylinders may be a little leaner than others. The O2 and closed loop software just make sure that the OVERALL output of the engine is 14.7:1. Not that any cylinder is likely to be way lean at all but that the left ones might be a few tenths of an air fuel ratio leaner than the right. This would cause a few hundred degrees difference in EGT thus changing the relative distortion of the exhaust guides across the engine....thus causing more wear where the distortion is worst....as you go across the engine to the right side.

Hard to do more than toss out ideas here without a dyno and some measurements and data. A thermocouple in each cylinder would provide a clue if someone wanted to drill their pipes and stick a 4 cylinder EGT system on and do some riding. You would be looking for consistent EGR differences...not a dramatic high or low (lean or rich) pattern.

I have seen situations like that with port fuel systems. Depending on the airbox, the left cylinders may flow more air than the right possibly causing them to be a little leaner for any given pulse width. The location of the fuel pressure regulator on the fuel rail can impact actual fuel delivery thru each injector due to the pressure hammer effect (water hammer) when each injector closes. The pressure pulse can travel to other injectors affecting the amount of fuel they deliver. This can cause distinct rich/lean patterns across a fuel rail. One assumes the engine designer covered this during development.

Injectors are randomly assumed to be plus/minus 3 % for fuel flow rate....so unless the injectors are flowed and matched you can expect a 6 percent range in fuel delivery across the injectors. This would be really rare as generally the injectors are much closer than this and are either all rich or lean....and then the closed loop system corrects for the engine as a whole and there is very little difference between cylinders. The injector effect doesn't explain the left to right issue as the injector issue would be more random.

Just some ideas and things that I have observed. The whole situation with the FJR is not too hard to explain, actually, from an engine development standpoint. They may run a little low on clearance in the exhaust guides (production tolerances) and maybe someone forgot to adequately prelube the valve stems at assembly starting the snowball. Then one side of the head distorts a little more than the other due to some of the reasons mentioned..... Then the valve stem seal supplier retools the seal a little "dryer" by accident thus limiting the amount of oil down the guide that would tend to cover up some of the other issues.

Once again, pure speculation, but it fits my preconceived notions of what could cause the results observed. It is probably not just one thing but an unfortunate combination of circumstances.

 
Jestal, after reading all of the info here and on other sites, your last replyabout the dreaded tick is the best summation and explanation I have come across.

Thank You! :clap:

It also gives me added hope for my new 06A!

 
Jestal, after reading all of the info here and on other sites, your last replyabout the dreaded tick is the best summation and explanation I have come across.
+1 Jestal, thanks for the insight. I have wondered for a while if the stem seals by themselves might not be the actual cause of the tick but at the same time they could be the solution. Maybe the 2006 models will give us the answer.

 
Great posts jestal. I believe you are exactly right - it's a combo of factors and we really don't know how they interact. That's why it really doesn't make sense to grasp at straws in an attempt to make your bike run richer or cooler.

No one has attempted a recent survey, but I'll just make the comment that the incidence of reported ticking seems to continue to slowly decline while the number of bikes out there continues to increase. I don't know whether the rate of problems today is acceptable or not, but it is certainly not an epidemic problem.

- Mark

 
markjenn Posted on Feb 20 2006, 11:03 PM<snip>

- it's a combo of factors and we really don't know how they interact. That's why it really doesn't make sense to grasp at straws
Yes, factors like: manufacturing clearances/tolerances, materials selection, seal design, temperatures, .... lubrication? So, without grasping at straws -- one would think the prudent FJR owner would want to take steps to ameliorate any potential problems by impacting those factors over which he or she does exert some influence -- like oil selection. It may be more important than some think?
the incidence of reported ticking seems to continue to slowly decline .... I don't know whether the rate of problems today is acceptable or not
I think "acceptability" may depend on "whose ox is being gored"....? :unsure:
 
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That is the hard part....there isn't much you can do, really. If the seals are just too dry then changing the oil or the oil quality or extra anti-wear additives, etc... are just not going to change a thing.

If you REALLY are concerned.....pull the cams when you do the valve clearance check. Put each piston in turn at TDC, pressurize the cylinder with shop air and pop off the exhuast valve spring retainer/valve spring. Next, either replace the valve stem seal with the revised version or just pop the wire garter spring off the seal to allow more oil down the guide. Or, poke a small hole in the exhaust valve stem seals to dribble more lube down the guide. That would make sure that the tick never surfaces if that is the problem. Dissassembling and reassembling all the exhaust valve spring retainers and such with the head on the motor and the motor in the bike is going to be tedious....very tedious.....LOL.

 
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