Another ticker casualty

[CherokeeKid]

Well, my 05 fjr joins the list of ticker casualties.

I noticed an occasional loud ticking at about 12,000, but most of the time not to noticeable. My biggest clue was a noticeable loss of power and lower gas mileage (was 41 went to 37).

I removed the exhaust header pipes and found one exhaust port (E6) much blacker that the rest. A compression check revealed all cylinders were low but still within spec. More interesting was a valve clearance check showing all readings out of spec. on the tight side. The low limit for exhaust is .18mm, but all eight valves read .15mm. Does this mean it came from the factory set to tight? If so, this might be the defect in manufacturing that has been suggested.

I also noted the exhaust cam on lobe E3 had a trace mark on the closed side of the lobe. This should never touch the valve cap on the closed cycle unless the clearance is too tight.

I discussed this issue with my dealer who gave me the deer-in-the-head-lights look and said he had never heard of any problems with the FJR. I then e-mailed another dealer, told him my problems and mentioned the known issue with the FJR and he said that I was reading to much into the forum discussions and that 98 percent of all complaints were bogus. As I do not have the YES warranty and don’t want to take all summer to get Yamaha corporate to react, I have decided to fix it myself.

Since it is being repaired on my dime I will certainly NOT be using the factory valve guides.

Does anyone have a source for bronze guides or other aftermarket valve components? I know I can have them custom made and I will if need be, but it will take longer and I may have to purchase more that 16 guides to meet the minimum order.

 

[madmike2]

There was someone who was considering making some bronze guides, but I don't remember who or know how far that effort went.

2 of us in Sacramento had our '05 tickers assessed by dealers yesterday.

Rick-in-Sac (24K miles) was getting some strange feedback from Capitol Yamaha, so I rode with him to Roseville Yamaha where the service manager started the bike, listened in a couple of different RPM ranges, took the VIN and said he'd call Yamaha on Tuesday. He listened to mine (which had been confirmed by other FJR owners in NorCal) and said, yep.

We then drove down to my dealer (PCP, where the tick is documented in their computer). The service writer came and listened to mine (15K miles), asked when I wanted it fixed and will call Cypress on Tuesday.

Each of these dealers said they have done 3 FJRs, PCP just deliverred a repaired ticker last week. There is something to be said for a dealer who has dealt with the issue before, recognizes the problem and knows how to make the system work.

I wonder if there is a way to take a poll without it turning into a Q & A/****** session so we could get a better grasp on how many of which years?

Perhaps I'll email one of the admins.......

 

[Ric in Sac]

Yep, as Madmike said, mine 05 is a ticker. Scheduled for surgery May 23rd. Mike heard the state of depression in my voice when I called him for advice. He picked me up by the collar and we rode our bikes to Roseville Yamaha for an exam. Mine was evaluated and confirmed to be a problem. I am relieved and confident that this dealer has the experience to resolve this issue for me. On the bright side, it will save me the costs of a valve check and/or adjustment. I can also get several other service items performed with little expense since the key components will already be apart to perform the work. No point in checking valve adjustments when the guides are toast.

There have been so many tickers hitting close to home lately the reported statistical chances of this problem seem considerably understated. Let me see . . . Ian's has been done . . . twice. Toecutter's was recently done, Madmike's has been diagnosed along with mine, and I am sure I am missing a few others in the neighborhood (OPD).

 

[RTSR1/FJR]

Yep, as Madmike said, mine 05 is a ticker. Scheduled for surgery May 23rd. Mike heard the state of depression in my voice when I called him for advice. He picked me up by the collar and we rode our bikes to Roseville Yamaha for an exam. Mine was evaluated and confirmed to be a problem. I am relieved and confident that this dealer has the experience to resolve this issue for me. On the bright side, it will save me the costs of a valve check and/or adjustment. I can also get several other service items performed with little expense since the key components will already be apart to perform the work. No point in checking valve adjustments when the guides are toast.
There have been so many tickers hitting close to home lately the reported statistical chances of this problem seem considerably understated. Let me see . . . Ian's has been done . . . twice. Toecutter's was recently done, Madmike's has been diagnosed along with mine, and I am sure I am missing a few others in the neighborhood (OPD).

So do you guys have the YES warranty? If not, is it out of it's year warranty? Will it be completely covered? Just in case my '03 developes this tick!

 

[weekend rider]

MM2 that is not good having a bad ticker. Does the ticker usually start around 10k or is it just random and can start at any mileage ? I would like you to listen to my bike and hear what you have to say, if you would please.

 

[velvet fog]

My 05 started ticking at about 7k. Well documented somewhere in these forums. fixed at Sunnyside last October, about 1000 miles ago.

 

[FlyingLow]

Damn, this is all very depressing. Good luck, guys, getting your 05s properly taken care of.

And just when I was starting to get over the paranoia about my own '05 with about 14K, and just relaxing and riding it and hoping probability was on my side.

I'll keep riding, of course, and keeping my fingers crossed.

 

[Ramblin Man]

Does anyone have a source for bronze guides or other aftermarket valve components? I know I can have them custom made and I will if need be, but it will take longer and I may have to purchase more that 16 guides to meet the minimum order.

I bought some valve/guide sets to send to aftermarket manufacturers. There wasn't enough intrest to pursue it after the first quote. They would have ran 400 bucks a set to have them made and Yamaha had just changed the guides so people were wondering if that was the fix.

I planned on re-addressing it, but not until there was demand.

 

[jestal]

Cherokee......you should really search out all the old info on this forum regarding tickers and read up. Much of what you mention is ground that has already been plowed.

You are not likely to fix the problem by changing valve guide materials and could just as easily make it worse....but your choice.

I think the real issue is the amount of lubrication the valve guides receive and that would be addressed with the valve stem seals.....that are revised per the Yamaha service bulletines on the ticker issue. It is a well documented fact that you should uncover in your reading that people's tickers are being repaired with a revised valve stem seal part number NOT a revised valve guide.

When the valve guide wears the valve stem "cocks" ever so slightly in the guide causing loss of sealing, loss of compression, and results in pounding the valve seat down slightly. The valve seat pounding from the uneven seating of the exhaust valves manifests itself as reduced valve clearance that you note. The low limit valve clearance is collateral damage not likely a potential source of the problem originally. Many tickers seem to still have the valve clearance within limits even with the ticking so the tight valve clearance is not likely a clue to anything.

If the dealer you spoke to is worth anything at all they should contact Yamaha service directly and mention the "ticker" issue and press the case. Yamaha is well aware of the situation and has a service bulletine outlining the ticker repair that specifically includes the alternate valve stem seals. BTW...this is the only way you find out about the alternate valve stem seals is to open a Yamaha service case. Otherwise, the same original stem seals are still shown in the Yamaha parts list. Several dealers I talked to also knew nothing about tickers or different stem seals but once they were interested and pressed the point with Yamaha service they came up with the same answers as given above.

Once I found the revised valve stem seal part numbers I ordered those and retrofitted them to my low mile 03 in hopes of heading off an eventual ticker. I would definitely advise getting those seals...

 

[FJRMGM]

Cherokee, Yamaha has been fixing FJR's even if they are out of warranty. Mine was four days from out of warranty when it was repaired.

I suggest you find another dealer in your area.

 

[skyway]

There was someone who was considering making some bronze guides, but I don't remember who or know how far that effort went.
2 of us in Sacramento had our '05 tickers assessed by dealers yesterday.

Rick-in-Sac (24K miles) was getting some strange feedback from Capitol Yamaha, so I rode with him to Roseville Yamaha where the service manager started the bike, listened in a couple of different RPM ranges, took the VIN and said he'd call Yamaha on Tuesday. He listened to mine (which had been confirmed by other FJR owners in NorCal) and said, yep.

We then drove down to my dealer (PCP, where the tick is documented in their computer). The service writer came and listened to mine (15K miles), asked when I wanted it fixed and will call Cypress on Tuesday.

Each of these dealers said they have done 3 FJRs, PCP just deliverred a repaired ticker last week. There is something to be said for a dealer who has dealt with the issue before, recognizes the problem and knows how to make the system work.

I wonder if there is a way to take a poll without it turning into a Q & A/****** session so we could get a better grasp on how many of which years?

Perhaps I'll email one of the admins.......

So both you guys are confirmed tickers now?

I had my suspicions about Rics bike at the Lake Berryessa parking lot. Quit reading internet forums guys, the problem then goes away, haven't you heard?

Skyway - clean and tick free for almost 11K!

 

[rogdeb]

Aaaggghhh

This is something I hate to hear :angry2:

Maybe Mike & Rick can listen to mine on Sat

 

[CherokeeKid]

If the dealer you spoke to is worth anything at all they should contact Yamaha service directly and mention the "ticker" issue and press the case. Yamaha is well aware of the situation and has a service bulletine outlining the ticker repair that specifically includes the alternate valve stem seals. BTW...this is the only way you find out about the alternate valve stem seals is to open a Yamaha service case. Otherwise, the same original stem seals are still shown in the Yamaha parts list. Several dealers I talked to also knew nothing about tickers or different stem seals but once they were interested and pressed the point with Yamaha service they came up with the same answers as given above.

Thanks for the insite Jestal.

When back to my dealer today with the Head removed and showed him the burnt valve. He still maintains he has no knowledge of this problem but wil call Cypress and get back to me. You wouldn't happen to know where I could get a copy of the Yamaha bulletin?

I did research as many of the old ticker threads as I could find, including all the Warchild sagas. My take on all the theories and speculations is this is a heat related issue. A lack of lubrication might also contribute but why not do both, bonze valve guides and the new and improved valve seals. Bronze is a much better conductor of heat than steel. As an old hot-rodder, bronze valve guides are used in all aftermarket high performance auto heads. This is in a market were money is no issue. If steel was better thats what they would be using. Anyway, I am still in the research phase on this issue and welcome any comments from the forum.

 

[FJRMGM]

are you talking about burned valves or eroded and loose valve guides?

None of the tickers I am aware of had a burned valve, they just had a loose valve guide so the valve stem rattled around in the guide.

 

[RTSR1/FJR]

If the dealer you spoke to is worth anything at all they should contact Yamaha service directly and mention the "ticker" issue and press the case. Yamaha is well aware of the situation and has a service bulletine outlining the ticker repair that specifically includes the alternate valve stem seals. BTW...this is the only way you find out about the alternate valve stem seals is to open a Yamaha service case. Otherwise, the same original stem seals are still shown in the Yamaha parts list. Several dealers I talked to also knew nothing about tickers or different stem seals but once they were interested and pressed the point with Yamaha service they came up with the same answers as given above.

Thanks for the insite Jestal.

When back to my dealer today with the Head removed and showed him the burnt valve. He still maintains he has no knowledge of this problem but wil call Cypress and get back to me. You wouldn't happen to know where I could get a copy of the Yamaha bulletin?

I did research as many of the old ticker threads as I could find, including all the Warchild sagas. My take on all the theories and speculations is this is a heat related issue. A lack of lubrication might also contribute but why not do both, bonze valve guides and the new and improved valve seals. Bronze is a much better conductor of heat than steel. As an old hot-rodder, bronze valve guides are used in all aftermarket high performance auto heads. This is in a market were money is no issue. If steel was better thats what they would be using. Anyway, I am still in the research phase on this issue and welcome any comments from the forum.

I've questioned that the Cat's could be building heat to the head and believe it to be a contributing factor possibly. Seems funny only exhaust is affected. I'd be interest in seeing what Bronze guides could be created for. Put them on the shelf for if/when I need them.

 

[Feejer/Weejer man]

Cats won't be bothering mine anymore. Took em off. Installed Holeshot header just after the ticker got fixed. Hope it holds up.

 

[Bostonfan2]

Mine started ticking around 20,000 miles, and was repaired with no hassle at all in 2 weeks time, my feeling is if you havent had the new valve seals installed it could happen at any mileage , and we dont really

know for sure that that is the end all fix...... we can only hope.

Ray

 

[jestal]

If the engine truely has a burned exhaust valve I would expect that to be a secondary failure from the worn valve guides. Worn valve guides will cause the valve to **** slightly on the seat as mentioned and could cause combustion gas leakage if severe and valve burning. An overheated, eroded valve isn't necessarily the first thing that failed. It is usually a seondary failure caused by something else.

The production guides are not steel from what I can determine. They are powdered metal. This is covered in one of the previous posts. Powdered metal valve guides are state of the art and much better than bronze valve guides for lubricity and wear.

You are really quoting old tech with the bronze valve guides. They became popular ages ago as a way of repairing or insering the valve guides of iron heads. Bronze is easy to machine and has a certain level of lubricity that makes it tolerant of low lubrication. Powdered metal guides are much better. MUCH. Personally, I would never consider it a step forward to replace the OEM powdered metal guides with bronze guides. Bronze guides are still used as they are easy to machine from bar stock and make excellent low volume parts as they can be lathe turned from raw stock where tooling for powdered metal guides for a specific application costs much more and the material and production costs are far higher. But they are lightyears ahead in terms of performance so OEM's all use PM guides.

I doubt seriously that the catalytic converter is causing any problems with the exhaust valves or valve guides. I have seen some very high output engines run with cats mounted directly in the exhaust manifolds inches away from the exhaust valves and they caused no problems like that. The cat just creates a little more backpressure and the amount of backpressure in the exhaust required to create a valve problem is orders of magnitude greater than the cat or a muffler creates.

I've worked on a number of exhaust valve problems on other engines during development in the past and this "ticker" issue just reeks of a lack of lubrication.....either at initial build (little or no prelube cuasing initial scuffing) and/or too dry a valve stem seal (causing eventual lubrication failure and galling/wear in the guide.)

I am certainly open minded about any ideas on this but I haven't seen or heard anything that changes my mind so far.....

 

[CherokeeKid]

If the engine truely has a burned exhaust valve I would expect that to be a secondary failure from the worn valve guides. Worn valve guides will cause the valve to **** slightly on the seat as mentioned and could cause combustion gas leakage if severe and valve burning. An overheated, eroded valve isn't necessarily the first thing that failed. It is usually a seondary failure caused by something else.
The production guides are not steel from what I can determine. They are powdered metal. This is covered in one of the previous posts. Powdered metal valve guides are state of the art and much better than bronze valve guides for lubricity and wear.

You are really quoting old tech with the bronze valve guides. They became popular ages ago as a way of repairing or insering the valve guides of iron heads. Bronze is easy to machine and has a certain level of lubricity that makes it tolerant of low lubrication. Powdered metal guides are much better. MUCH. Personally, I would never consider it a step forward to replace the OEM powdered metal guides with bronze guides. Bronze guides are still used as they are easy to machine from bar stock and make excellent low volume parts as they can be lathe turned from raw stock where tooling for powdered metal guides for a specific application costs much more and the material and production costs are far higher. But they are lightyears ahead in terms of performance so OEM's all use PM guides.

Jestal, you are correct about the burnt valve, it was a secondary failure do to worn valve guides.

You state that bronze guides are old school. Then why does GM sell its bowtie preformance heads with bronze guides? I copied this description from the GM web site:

Signature Series Racing Bow-Tie Cylinder Head

Aluminum Bow Tie cylinder head offers a significant performance improvement over production castings. Bow Tie heads are recommended for large displacement competition engines. The seat inserts and bronze valve guides are semi-finished for 2.19" diameter intake valves and 1.88" exhaust valves.

The factory stock GM heads come with PM guides so why not use them in the preformance heads if they are better. I think the PM guides are installed in most factory engines because it is cheaper to manufacture.

The advantages of bronze are:

Phosphor Bronze

* High strength-to-weight ratio

* More dense than cast iron

* Higher rate of thermal conductivity

* Lower coefficient of friction

Valve guide failure occurs when valve guides over heat, they burn up the oil that lubricates the valve, which causes the valve to gall or seize in the guide.

I think the new, more free flowing valve seal Yamaha is offering will help but is it enough to overcome the excessive heat caused by too small a valve stem? The FJ had 5.5 MM valve stems, not 5 MM like the FJR.