Any experience with SIPs homes?

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I've come to respect the wisdom of so many of you here on so many things, and wondered if any of you had any experience with building using structural insulated panels, otherwise known as SIPs.

We've recently moved back to Northern California, and we're deeply frustrated in not finding the home and land we want. We've always dreamed of building, after renovating a home back in Massachusetts.

I know, I know... it's a much better time to buy. But we recently bid on one house in a less-desirable adjacent town, and pitched what we thought was a very fair number, and we didn't get the home. We've bid on several, but on this one, there were 25 other bids! (Yes, in California, even with real unemployment probably at over 21%!) Every good home at a fair cost here is still getting snapped up.

We'd like to invest to build the home we'll be in for 15 years or so.

I'm far handier building than I am fixing the FJR, and I'd like to do as much of the post-framing work as I can myself. With time challenges, I know we'll hire sub-contractors to do much of the work. The primary challenge, though, with being an owner-builder: you can't get a construction loan without a contractor. We'll hire a contractor/advisor at minimum. (Even then, you may be looking at 30% down to build!)

Anyhow, interested in your thoughts and experience on this. Thanks!

 
Don't have any experience with either, but from what I've seen/read, a modular home might be something else to look into (not to be confused with a "manufactured" (aka: trailer) home).

 
I haven't used SIPs, but they are a great idea over standard stick framing. I say go for it, but also consider letting a contractor erect them or part of it. You need a crew (crane helpful) to manhandle them. Framing is usually the cheaper part of the job, save your energy for all the finishing. Building a house is a big undertaking that will/can drain you if you do everything yourself, plus you'll take a lot longer than you think. Most people I see doing it all themselves never really finish the job because they burn out.

For your foundation consider styrofoam forms, which use rebar and pumped concrete.... R26 basement walls that you don't have to insulate, just apply drywall (fireproofing) and outer waterproofing. Let a contractor do this too as it can't be done by a one-man crew.

 
I've come to respect the wisdom of so many of you here on so many things, and wondered if any of you had any experience with building using structural insulated panels, otherwise known as SIPs.

We've recently moved back to Northern California, and we're deeply frustrated in not finding the home and land we want. We've always dreamed of building, after renovating a home back in Massachusetts.

I know, I know... it's a much better time to buy. But we recently bid on one house in a less-desirable adjacent town, and pitched what we thought was a very fair number, and we didn't get the home. We've bid on several, but on this one, there were 25 other bids! (Yes, in California, even with real unemployment probably at over 21%!) Every good home at a fair cost here is still getting snapped up.

We'd like to invest to build the home we'll be in for 15 years or so.

I'm far handier building than I am fixing the FJR, and I'd like to do as much of the post-framing work as I can myself. With time challenges, I know we'll hire sub-contractors to do much of the work. The primary challenge, though, with being an owner-builder: you can't get a construction loan without a contractor. We'll hire a contractor/advisor at minimum. (Even then, you may be looking at 30% down to build!)

Anyhow, interested in your thoughts and experience on this. Thanks!
We built a timber frame (post and beam) home in 2004/05 and used SIPs to enclose it. We were owner-builders. The frame went up in two days, the SIPs went on in 5 days. Partly due to putting down T&G pondarosa pine on the ceiling first. IIRC, the 5-1/2" walls are rated at R-30 and the 10-1/2" ceiling panels are rated at R-40. We are very happy with them.

We went from the subfloor to framed and dried in in 10 days with just my brother, Dad, wife and me. The timber frame company sent out the two guys that cut the frame to assist with raising. I ran the crane truck, my brother directed the beam setting and everyone else was general labor moving pieces into place and pounding in the oak pegs.

The picture taken below is at the end of day 2 with the frame up. You can see at the very left edge, some the SIPs stacked for installation (in front of the boom truck). (I'll try to add some pictures of the SIPs installation tonight)

TimberFrameRaising52904195.jpg


The framing materials are about 30% more than conventional stick framing. The SIPs cost us $32000 for this house which is 2700 SF. The biggest advantages to SIPs are time savings and insulation value. Time savings, in that we sent the CAD drawings of the frame to the SIP manufacturer, and they cut the panels to size at the factory, installed all window & door cutouts. They are structurally rated and provided the shear for the frame. The insulation value is incredible. We heat the house with a radiant floor heating system using a hot water heater as the heat source. On the coldest days here (20 degrees) the water circulation pump in the heating system is running at it's lowest setpoint. The house is constantly maintained at 70 degrees. During the summer, we don't have any air conditioning and the house rarely gets above 75 degrees. If we run the gas fireplace, we run it on the lowest setting and it will run you out of the house in an hour. We have ceiling fans that are on constantly to keep the air circulating because there are no radiant heat tubes in the loft. (They are not needed)

If we were to build again, we most definitely would use SIPs again. We did not experience any off gassing from them at all. Our panels were built by Premier Panels in Fife, Washington. You will need a crane to set them, the roof panels were 8' x 18' (gave a 2' overhang all the way around) and wiegh about 500 pounds each. The two biggest panels are on the walls directly below the peak. They were 8' x 24', which is the largest the OSB sheets that they sandwhich the foam with. You can get either stryofoam or polyurathane foam depending on the compnay that makes the SIPs. The peak is 25' to the ground in front and 35' to the ground in back (10' foundation).

Some companies offer conduit in the walls with the electrical boxes already installed. My local electrical inspectors would not accept those. Being an electricain, I was't to wild about that either. We intended to do wanescoting aroudn the inside anyway, so I furred out the walls up 4' with 2"x4" which provide the wire cases fo rthe electrical and gave me a shelf around the outside walls. It also made it easier to bring wire up from below in to the wall areas.

Since the house is so air tight, you will need to install a whole house ventilation system. I got one that had a air to air heat exchanger and it is set to run 20 minutes every hour. In addition it has a feature that controls humidity which is very inportant to be able to control. Since we built in 2004 they have improved the radiant floor systems to the point that a home owner with soldering skills can do it themselves. You can also use the radiant floor system to cool the house now.

The only people we hired for building our house, were the timber framers, the plumbers, a drywaller to tape it (I can't do smooth wall finish) and the flat concrete finishers. My family and I did everything else including building the cabinets on site. I still have some trim work to finish inside, and the landscaping to do outside. We have not decided what type of stone veneer we want on the exposed part of the foundation yet.

We lived on site in the 5th wheel for 11 months while we built because our other property sold just as we started this. I built a small shed next to the 5th wheel with a shower, toilet, washer/dryer, sink and closets in it. On the coverd porch was a full size refer and freezer. It made everything much easier. I was working 4-10's then, so I had three full days every week to work on the house as well as the evenings.

When my brother left after the first 10 days, the frame was up, the SIPs were on, the house was dried in, the stairs were framed. We raised the frame over the Memorial day weekend and moved in the follwing May 5th.

We took two years to find the property, plan the house and decided on the details of the house. We made very few changes from our original plan. Most were due to inspectors preferences and me not willing to fight with them. The biggest change the inspectors did to us was require a fire sprinkler system inside the house. It added $12,000 to the project, but we were able to hire a designer and install the system ourselves.

 
Auburn, can't wait to see more of your story. Fantastic! So much to learn, even in your first message! Looking forward to other photos.

Just wondering, though; your clean-up contractors look a little young! ;-)

 
Wow good job catching Auburn on this one Barry He's got it down. (Now I'm hooked Pic's please) Good luck on the project Barry Talk to you soon JAG

 
I know here in Mass the homeowner is aloud to be the general contractor on his own home. After waiting 10 months for a contractor and just getting strung along I decided to take on the project myself. Let me tell you it was quite the experience and a learning curve. You can't say I didn't warn you.

PS: Your welcome back to the east coast anytime you know. Plenty of houses for sale that aren't moving.

Dave

 
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Auburn, thanks again for the thorough reply. Can't wait to see the rest of the story. A couple of questions:

The timber framing looks fantastic! I wish we could afford that, though we're looking to build more a farm style house rather than a timber frame. Did you choose this solely for the aesthetics, or was it required for your design? My take on SIPs is that they can and often do comprise most of the shell of the building without additional lumber. I know that you will require some lumber for a second floor and internal walls.

How would you compare the cost of the radiant floor heating to more traditional systems?

Is your water heating done with natural gas or propane? We'd probably have to do propane in our rural location. Just wondering how often that would have to be delivered.

Do you have hot water tanks, or did you choose on-demand water heaters?

Can you share an estimate on your per-foot cost? Don't want to be rude - message it to me if you prefer. But it sounds like you and your brother did a significant portion of the heavy lifting - literally!

Can you share anything about the windows and doors you choose? Sounds as though the entire home was really efficient. Did you test it for leaks once finished?

Thanks again!

 
I know here in Mass the homeowner is aloud to be the general contractor on his own home. After waiting 10 months for a contractor and just getting strung along I decided to take on the project myself. Let me tell you it was quite the experience and a learning curve. You can't say I didn't warn you.

PS: Your welcome back to the east coast anytime you know. Plenty of houses for sale that aren't moving.

Dave

I used a local bank that specializes in owner-builder construction loans and then rolls them into permanent mortgages that they service. The loan costs are a one time fee. They also used a voucher program to pay your material suppliers and subs. You give the sub or material supplier the voucher, they present it to the bank and are required to sign off all lien releases to get paid. It works very well and releives you of a lot of pressure dealing with that itssue.

You do have to do your homework and do a detailed construction budget to get approval on the loan. Seems like a PIA, but it is a very good tool. It makes you plan and make decisions before you start.

 
Auburn, thanks again for the thorough reply. Can't wait to see the rest of the story. A couple of questions:

The timber framing looks fantastic! I wish we could afford that, though we're looking to build more a farm style house rather than a timber frame. Did you choose this solely for the aesthetics, or was it required for your design? My take on SIPs is that they can and often do comprise most of the shell of the building without additional lumber. I know that you will require some lumber for a second floor and internal walls.

How would you compare the cost of the radiant floor heating to more traditional systems?

Is your water heating done with natural gas or propane? We'd probably have to do propane in our rural location. Just wondering how often that would have to be delivered.

Do you have hot water tanks, or did you choose on-demand water heaters?

Can you share an estimate on your per-foot cost? Don't want to be rude - message it to me if you prefer. But it sounds like you and your brother did a significant portion of the heavy lifting - literally!

Can you share anything about the windows and doors you choose? Sounds as though the entire home was really efficient. Did you test it for leaks once finished?

Thanks again!

Here is what the land looked like form the road when we started on Sept. 30, 2003.

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Some of the equipment we rented to clear and prep the site. My brohter is on the Case 550 dozer, I am running the Case 300 trackhoe, and a friend is running the backhoe.

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Getting the footings ready to pour. Middle of Oct 03

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Forms and Steel almost ready to pour footings middle of Oct 03

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Foundation poured 10/31/03 - 45 CY of concrete pumped in 165 LF of 10' high 8" thick walls.

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The next morning Nov. 1, 2003. Stripping the forms, which were 1-1/8" T&G plywood. I reused it for the sub floor. This is my brother - he is a general contractor and builder. I am an electricain and my Dad is also a builder.

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Once we stripped the forms, we let the property sit through winter until Spring. Here is a couple of the concrete walls. This one is 42 foot long and 10' high.

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And this is a shot of the back side before backfilling in the Spring.

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March 2004, Garage Floor poured, starting to frame for the mechanical room and subfloor for the first floor. The posts are bolted to teh foundation for the point loads of the timber frame and the Strings are the locations of the Glu-Lam beams.

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The foundation is back filled now that the garage floor is poured and the drive way is being poured along with the patio. Note: The stamped concrete patio labor cost as much as the entire driveway. I used 220 CY of concrete in the driveway. Total concrete in the whole project was just under 300 CY. I approached the supplier and negoitated a price of $52 per CY when the going rate was $79 per CY due to the proximity of their plant (10 miles away) and the quantity of concrete. The finisher said I got a bette price then he normally does.

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Ready for the timber frame raising Memorial Day weekend 04

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Started raising the frame at 8AM on Friday morning. Intermittent showers all day. Preparing the first two bents to raise. You fill in between the bents with purlins (timber frame terminology) The timber framers asked how square the foundation was - I said due to my brother's anal tendencies it is within 1/8" on the X. They asked how level the subfloor was. I said again due to my brother's anal tendencies with the foundation walls it is dead level. They checked and said you right, so we'll assume you laid out the post locations on the subfloor correctly. Let's get started. :yahoo:

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10 AM first bent raised

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11:30 AM The bent weighs about 4000 lbs on the end of a 52' boom truck

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About noon on Friday

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My view for most of two days operating the boom truck

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5 PM Friday. The main part of the frame is raised.

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Day two was putting the sheds down both sides. Here it is finished at 5 PM Saturday afternoon.

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The family shortly after finishing the frame raising

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Sunday, Memorial Day weekend, the SIPs going on. One thing to note, we put 5/8" plywood strips on the outside of the frame to space the SIPs away from the timbers so you could slide the 1/2" drywall between the frame and the SIP and not have a tape line.

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Now the T&G Pine is going on. My brother is cutting a slot on top of a beam for the electrical wiring to go for overhead fitxtures and ceiling fans. I drilled through the beam and just let the wire hang long inside until the electric was completed. The SIP makes a good platform to hold things since the roof pitch is 8:12 and 6:12 which are very steep.

timberframeraising52904213.jpg


First roof SIP installed, the most critical to get straight and square. Also vapor barrier inplace

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35' to the peak on this side.

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The house was dried in in 10 dyas.

Skip ahead to 4th of July weekend. Myy brother came back up and helped me install the steel roof.

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Skip ahead to labor day weekend - House exterior is mostly complete and painted. The interior is framed and plumbing and electrical are inspected and signed off. I left the low areas for the wife to paint.

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Interior in the next post. At this point we are about the end of September 04.

 
OK i am sold. I would not hesitate to install them,

But thats coming from a guy that has only been in the tradeds for 35 years.

 
Auburn, thanks again for the thorough reply. Can't wait to see the rest of the story. A couple of questions:

The timber framing looks fantastic! I wish we could afford that, though we're looking to build more a farm style house rather than a timber frame. Did you choose this solely for the aesthetics, or was it required for your design? My take on SIPs is that they can and often do comprise most of the shell of the building without additional lumber. I know that you will require some lumber for a second floor and internal walls.

How would you compare the cost of the radiant floor heating to more traditional systems?

Is your water heating done with natural gas or propane? We'd probably have to do propane in our rural location. Just wondering how often that would have to be delivered.

Do you have hot water tanks, or did you choose on-demand water heaters?

Can you share an estimate on your per-foot cost? Don't want to be rude - message it to me if you prefer. But it sounds like you and your brother did a significant portion of the heavy lifting - literally!

Can you share anything about the windows and doors you choose? Sounds as though the entire home was really efficient. Did you test it for leaks once finished?

Thanks again!

To answer some of your questions. Yes you can have it designed so the SIPs are used for the walls and ceilings without conventional framing. We chose the timber frame for the asthectics. There are many timber frame companies all over that have stock plans that you can use and very reasonably priced. We used a stock plan from Goshen Timber Frames of North Carolina because all of the local companies wanted to do custom designs which we could not afford. Which was the main frame and one shed down one side. We had them mirror the shed down the other side to look like an old barn would. They charged us $30 and hour to do the permit set of drawings. Very reasonable cost. The frame materials are Eastern White Pine on the interior spaces and Cypress on the outside areas. They used some Cypress in the main load carrying beams inside also because it is stronger than the pine. They Cypress added about $12,000 to the cost of the basic frame as they had to bring it up from a swamp in Louisiana.

Heating is an electric hot water heater because we do not have natural gas available. Eventually I will switch to propane when we go to on demand system here in hte near future since they are now available at 95+% efficiency. It was a time and budget issue to go with electric during construction.

We found a radiant floor heating company at one of the Home Shows (there are many on the web that have turn key owner installed systems now) and and he worked with us desiging the system, providing the materials and the technical information so I could install it. The system is great. Technology has come quite a ways since 04 and we will be installing an on demand boiler for the radiant floor system. It is stand alone - meaning the domestic hot water and the heating system are not connected to each other. It is a Plumbing Code issue where I live.

As I chose aluminum clad windows made by Kolbe & Kolbe. They are double hung, low "e" glass coated with pine interiors.

We did not test for leaks. Didn't see the need to and there was no requirement to do so.

Cost per foot is relative. Because we were owner builder, we traded our labor for higher end materials. Such as the frame, pine T&G on the ceilings, oak hardwood floors, high end commercial grade appliances, slab granite counter tops, tons of harwood accents, hardiplank siding, 50 year metal roof and on and on.

With that said, we took two years to find the land (1.83 acres) at $72,000 in King County which is a screamin' deal. It is located with a 10 acre piece between us and a golf course that was a street of dreams community about 5 years before we built. Including the land we have $154 a SF, without the land costs $127 a SF. Of the total costs, $28,000 was all of the various permits.

I can honestly say the we would do this again. The owner builder process enabled us to afford this house. I still have some trim work inside to finish.

Here is the radiant floor system

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Some of the hardwoods that we used - 2000 SF of #2 Red Oak flooring, 3 units of 3/4 Maple plywood, 1 unit of 1/2" maple plywood, 1 unit of 1/4" maple plywood, 1800 board feet of Hard Maple, 500 board feet of Western Maple and 700 board feet quatersawn white oak.

The garage is 42' x 52' and could easily hold 6 cars. It cost me $10 per square foot to do it which was the cost of the additional 6 feet of foundation walls and the floor.

Here is the woods used. You can also see how the radiant floor is attached to the underside of the sub floor. This is due to the finished floor being hardwood and no space for the tubes above the subfloor. I did not want to deal with a lightwieght concrete floor or anything like that to put the tubes on top.

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The temporary cabinet shop, which has changed some since I finished the house.

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This one is just after the house was dried in. My brother framed the stairway and cut the stringers (I couldn't do the math to save my life and get all the stair treads even). The little round holes in the panels are where we put a bolt through the panel and hooked the straps for lifting. They have since been filled with foam insulation.

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Further along in the finishes

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We got ocuupancy prior to the granite counter tops going in. We usde the maple plywood as a temporary countertop to do so.

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We moved in on May 5th 2005, 11 months from the time we started framing the house. My wife and family was tremendous throughout the process. The deal with the wife, was she would clean up things so I could keep moving forward. She did the floor sanding, sanded the timbers, put the finish on the floors, painted the low places in the interior. THe kids helped keep things cleaned up and picked up.

Shortly after moving in.

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In addition to living on site during construction, we had two storage containers on site with all our stuff in them. It made it easier to get things when we needed them and keep things organized and out of the way when we didn't need them.

One of the most enjoyable things was the overcoming the challenges that come with building. There were things that you had to figure out how to construct and then make it happen. It was a great family experience that we got to share and made us a stronger family. I can say becasue we did so much research and planning before we got our construction loan, that we never had any arguments about finishes or what were wanted to do. We had definite things each of us was in charge of and making decisions on. Materials usually was my choice, colors were the wifes and we let the kids pick the carpet for their rooms and the color of their walls.

 
Don't have any experience with either, but from what I've seen/read, a modular home might be something else to look into (not to be confused with a "manufactured" (aka: trailer) home).

Tedd Benson has taken this to a new level with timber frames. He is a legend in the North East. Bensonwood has a process where they make all the walls in a factory as wells as the timber frame. They did a project a couple of years ago for this Old House This Old House Project with Tedd Benson. It is ground breaking what they are doing and very cool. Unfortunately, it might be on the pricey side too.

He did use a prcess of building the walls similar to SIPs.

 
As a bit of a woodworker/cabinetmaker myself, Auburn, that is some nice job. Congrats on keeping the focus and getting it finished so nicely. It looks awesome...... when we comin' over for a beer in the man-cave?

 
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Wheaton nailed it Auburn. What a great story and pictures..I've built a couple places over the years but nothing as impressive as this.

Beautiful place you have there. I'll assume you've a man cave someplace ;)

 
I've built a couple of places as well... ;)

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but always get bored...or get distracted by shiny objects. Way to keep your nose to the grindstone. :lol:

 
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As a bit of a woodworker/cabinetmaker myself, Auburn, that is some nice job. Congrats on keeping the focus and getting it finished so nicely. It looks awesome...... when we comin' over for a beer in the man-cave?

you are welcome to stop by any time you can make the trip. There is a tech day in the Spring, probably the first part of April. Bring the bike.

 
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