Appears to be an electrical issue?

[wfooshee]

To me, the slight increase in indicated voltage during her ride is indicative of a weak battery being charged during the ride. It may well be that everything's gonna turn out fine once she puts a few mile-amps (amp-miles? ) into the new battery.

By way of comparison, my office moved, and it's now less than three miles to work. If I just get on the bike and go straight to the office, I'll destroy the battery, if not the bike itself. Especially during the cold months. I've had more than one evening being the last one at work, and the bike won't turn over well enough to start because I've drained the battery with repeated short trips and no ride time for recovery charging. It's fun to remove the inner dash panels to get to the battery, find jumpers somewhere, move one of the company vehicles over by the bike (after finding keys somewhere,) jumping the bike off, leaving it running while I put everything back where it came from, then doing something stupid like dropping it into first with the sidestand still down. All in the dark.

My solution? Well, ride more, of course. I've made the route to work a lengthy detour, so I'm on the bike at least 20 minutes, rather than the 6 or 8 it would take to ride directly.

And Heidi's report of mid-to-high 13s with a gradual increase to low 14s is what I see after I've drained the battery with short runs and cold temps. And yes, the voltage will jump around a couple of tenths during this charging period.

Since replacing my starter a couple summers ago I've not had ANY starting issues other than those that I know are caused by lazily riding short trips consecutively.

My voltmeter is a Datel across the battery terminals, but with a relay in the circuit for key-on switching.

 

[luvtoride]

Ahhh, a bright & sunny Norfuckian morning! Good morning everyone. It seems I will be doing something with my bike today... even if it's just riding it until it is very hot, turning it off & trying to restart. I want to see if charging the battery up did any good for me besides having a fully charged battery.

 

[HaulinAshe]

RonAyers.com shows the STARTER RELAY ASSY for $46. I would definitely replace the relay before going anywhere near the starter motor.

 

[ionbeam]

In a perfect world Heidi and I would get together so that I could clamp the snap jaws of my Amp Probe around the positive battery cable.

And then with the starter button pressed read the starting current directly off of a DMM. Here 33.50 amps are flowing through the wire being probed. The reading is negative because I clamped the probe on upside down so everyone could see the controls of the amp probe; were I to flip the probe over it would read PLUS 33.50 amps.

We would instantly know if the issue is too much current draw or too little current draw. Too much current has to be the starter. Too little current then the troubleshooting is directed to testing the battery condition; then a voltage drop test of the wire connections and starter relay. Scoot and I did the voltage drop test to condemn his starter motor which later was indeed confirmed to be fried.

Taking the motorcycle to a dealer it is hoped/ assumed that they would take off a battery cable and install an inline current shunt and make this same test. No guessing involved after reading the current.

Certainly the starter relay is in the list of suspects, but I would put it way down on the list. Based on the failure occurring repeatably and linked to time from last start it still sounds like the starter motor, followed by over heated wire connections due to corrosion. Again, too much current is the starter, too little current is battery, wire or relay.

 

[HaulinAshe]

Certainly the starter relay is in the list of suspects, but I would put it way down on the list.

In the world of motorcycle mechanics, there aren't that many who can operate a current clamp meter or properly interpret the test results. Perhaps Heidi will ride to you or borrow a meter from someone and post up results?

But if you are down to changing parts for troubleshooting, there's absolutely no way I would change a starter motor without also changing the starter relay. If the starter motor was defective, there's an above-average chance that the high current loads have damaged/degraded the relay contacts.

 

[ionbeam]

In the world of motorcycle mechanics, there aren't that many who can operate a current clamp meter or properly interpret the test results. Perhaps Heidi will ride to you or borrow a meter from someone and post up results?

But if you are down to changing parts for troubleshooting, there's absolutely no way I would change a starter motor without also changing the starter relay. If the starter motor was defective, there's an above-average chance that the high current loads have damaged/degraded the relay contacts.

Well, I will disagree a bit.

Most clamp on amp probes, and in particular this amp probe are very easy to use and there is almost nothing to interpret. It is far easier to use than a shunt current meter. I'll bet I could teach Scooter how to use this probe in less than one beer The starter motor should draw ~30 amps; clamp the probe around either the positive or negative battery cable, press the starter and read the meter. 30 volts = 30 amps. 160 volts = 160 amps. If the starter has a spec of 30 amps and you read 160 amps the starter is toast. If you read 10 amps the starter is current starved due to battery/wire/relay problems.

In my previous reply I meant to imply that the starter relay is low on the list to be the sole root cause problem. If you measure the starting current and it is ~60 amps the starter motor is failing but probably hasn't hurt the starter relay. If you measure 160 amps then it may make sense to change the relay too. I believe Walter measured his starter current to be greater than 160 amps but I don't recall that he changed his starter relay. So Walt, any long term problems with that? (And, just because Walt got away with it doesn't mean that everyone would get away with it.)

Damage to the starter relay power contacts can be absolutely measured and verified using a voltage drop test like the tests Scooter and I walked through.

Edit to add: Right now I'm sure Heidi would not enjoy the ride to NH! If there is someone with a standard DMM in her area that is comfortable using the meter and willing pay postage I would loan the amp probe.

 

[Geezer]

In a perfect world Heidi and I would get together so that I could clamp the snap jaws of my Amp Probe around the positive battery cable.

That Amp Probe sure is pretty. I thought those things only worked on AC.

It looks like one would cost about $75.00. Hmmm, do I want it that bad?

 

[wfooshee]

Didn't replace my relay, no issues since then, about 18 months now.

It did bother me when I used my shunt that it pegged the meter and the shunt was too hot to touch . . . . I sorta kinda knew "starter" at that point.

 

[ionbeam]

That Amp Probe sure is pretty. I thought those things only worked on AC.

It looks like one would cost about $75.00. Hmmm, do I want it that bad?

I bench tested the Probe on both AC and DC scales and found the accuracy and performance to be better than good enough. Most AC/DC amp probes of this capability are $350 - $1,200.

(Only trained experienced people should try the following.) With this probe I went to my house breaker box and monitored the two main power phases coming in to look at power balance. I went to each breaker with most of the electrical items turned on in my house and noted how much current was actually flowing through the 15/20 amp circuit breakers to see if any are overloaded. Since I have an older home I used the probe to map my fuse box so I know where every switch, outlet, light and appliance is located. Should I have a problem with a breaker tripping I can figure out if it is the breaker getting weak or I can identify the exact item that is overloading the circuit.

I use the probe on my car as well as my bike. This is an excellent wire tracer. I would make the probe or myself and probe available to any local people that have an electrical need.

It sure would be interesting to see what this probe would show on the Gen II ground spiders...

 

[Geezer]

(Only trained experienced people should try the following.) With this probe I went to my house breaker box and monitored the two main power phases coming in to look at power balance.

That's how I was thinking about justifying the cost. I installed my own distribution panel and wiring years ago and never balanced the load. Besides, it's a lot easier to use than an ammeter that has to be installed in series. And there's the 'cool' factor.

 

[luvtoride]

Howdy folks, so I just went outside & ran the bike until the fan kicked on, turned it off & back on. The bike fired immediately & sounded completely normal. I then repeated this process & the same effect... bike fired normally. Maybe my problem was the battery was indeed low? I'm not sure, but right at this very moment it is acting normal after running the bike to charge the battery, yesterday. I guess I'm going to run it & see if symptoms again rear their ugly head.

I am not completely optimistic until I've been running the bike awhile & this doesn't happen again. For now, I am breathing a sigh of relief.

I thank everyone for their expertise & it is likely I will be back again asking advice. Time will tell, Heidi

 

[03HiYoSilver]

Luv,

Great to hear the Good News...and may it continue this way for you.

 

[ionbeam]

Glad to hear things are looking better! Non-issues are good issues. Fingers crossed this trend continues.

 

[RaYzerman19]

Just catching up with this. Re-read your first and last post, wondering if it was possible the battery was not charged properly from your supplier, your trickle charger really isn't the proper one for a new battery, your initial slow cranking symptoms would be typical, and the battery would take a significant bit or riding to get charged. I think from your current voltage behaviour, the battery has been charged and it seems to be working normally now.

Besides the voltage and current checks mentioned, a load test on the battery will tell you if it is OK.

 

[Randy]

Just catching up with this. Re-read your first and last post, wondering if it was possible the battery was not charged properly from your supplier, your trickle charger really isn't the proper one for a new battery, your initial slow cranking symptoms would be typical, and the battery would take a significant bit or riding to get charged. I think from your current voltage behaviour, the battery has been charged and it seems to be working normally now.

Besides the voltage and current checks mentioned, a load test on the battery will tell you if it is OK.

From the WestCo website FAQs:

Do I need to charge my battery when I get it?No.

-Our batteries are ready to go out of the box if installed within the first

thirty days.

 

[luvtoride]

From the WestCo website FAQs:

Do I need to charge my battery when I get it?No.

-Our batteries are ready to go out of the box if installed within the first

thirty days.

Well, mine needed a charge. So far, I am not completely optimistic that this is the end of my issue. For now, I will take it, though. Again everyone, thank you for all insight,

Heidi

 

[Fred W]

Well, since it is Friday, and we are showing off our high tech "probes"...

I almost forgot that I had the thing sitting up on the shelf.

 

[HaulinAshe]

I can't post a picture of my probe.

 

[03HiYoSilver]

I can't post a picture of my probe.

I am sure if you did, we'd give you a "+" !

 

[ionbeam]

Well, since it is Friday, and we are showing off our high tech "probes"...

Ya, but does it do DC amps for your motorcycles and cars? Other than that it is a good, well featured AC amp probe/meter.

I can't post a picture of my probe.

Aye, and we will be a thankin' the good Lord for that...