Auxiliary Cell Design

[dcarver]

Hey Joe - that plastic cell on your plate looks good. How will you attach it?
I also like the idea of your custom cell. As for raising it, I think it a good idea for fuel transfer. I tend towards the simplicity of gravity feed. Let me also say this: by raising the cell a bit, you add some much needed storage space as far as I am concerned.

Kudos for trying this. It's no easy project. And there is a need out there for a decent fuel cell. Me, I love my Tanji and it's 'flatbed' design. I am not a big fan of the topcases, dut to the high speed aerodynamic/handling issues and putting weight up high and aft. Regardless, well done on trying to figure out an intelligent, and well thought out solution.

My plate will attach to the bike using the two flanged, hex head screws that hold the grab rail down. I spent a lot of time designing components that would lock the plate into the same retaining system as the seat uses. My idea was: take the seat off... click the tank in. I've abandoned that idea and I've decided to have it bolted down.

The weight on the plate will be transferred to the frame on the same points that currently take the load from the rear seat.

The plastic tank will then be strapped to my plate. It's another tangent for me, but I'm going to mount the plastic tank and post photos in the next few weeks.

Dean Tanji's design was my original inspiration and now I'm working on three or four versions of this thing:

1.) An over the tail version with a flat top (a total rip-off of Dean's idea)

2.) The rear seat replacement (a total rip-off of Bearly Flying's idea - only mine is for the GenII)

3.) A "Cheap Bastard" version using the 4 gallon plastic jug ( a total rip-off of Iron Maiden's set-up)

The seat replacement and the Cheap Bastard version both utilize the same bottom plate. The over the tail version uses the same curves on the bottom plate, but it's longer (obviously) and sides are shorter (more squat)

Whatever you come up with will be quality and I want one. IMHO a fuel pump isn't an evil thing. Gravity or pressurized via fuel pump are both viable buyable options as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Joe2Lmaker]

I've decided that I'm going to put a temporary hold on revisions.

I'm going to:

1.) Finish the Cheap Bastard version bottom plate and order the rest of the fittings for the plastic tank.

2.) Finish the custom tank version that replaces the rear seat (I'm going to talk to the welder right now)

I ordered two Carter P74017 Universal Fuel Pumps. It's a solenoid pump, so it should be very reliable. I'm having a little trouble finding specs, but it seems like it has a flow rate of 30gph and pressure of 10-14psi

After I get the two tanks done, I’ll either work on the over the tail version or revise 1 & 2.

And now a question:

If I’m using double valved disconnects and a solenoid pump, do I really need a shut off valve?

 

[radman]

Shut off valve prior to the pump you mean? Yes, I would imagine a valve right at the tank outlet would serve as a safety device as well as a first line of defense should any leak appear downstream, as well as simplifying any repairs downstream, not to mention making the tank more easily removable should that become one of the designs criteria. Also, any thought given to raising the plate slightly, so as to aid flow (gravity) and hinging it at the back, with a solid quick release fastener at the front, so as to have access to the underside, for storage or what have you? Could even use a hood pin type arrangement. To summarize, it would give the needed height for gravity feed, ease removal, and give access to normal underseat storage.

 

[Bounce]

Andre: the reason most people who choose gravity feed over pumps is the same reason pressurizing the tank with air isn't typical.

Additional complexities increase the risk of failures.

 

[Joe2Lmaker]

Shut off valve prior to the pump you mean? Yes, I would imagine a valve right at the tank outlet would serve as a safety device as well as a first line of defense should any leak appear downstream, as well as simplifying any repairs downstream, not to mention making the tank more easily removable should that become one of the designs criteria. Also, any thought given to raising the plate slightly, so as to aid flow (gravity) and hinging it at the back, with a solid quick release fastener at the front, so as to have access to the underside, for storage or what have you? Could even use a hood pin type arrangement. To summarize, it would give the needed height for gravity feed, ease removal, and give access to normal underseat storage.

O.K. I'll put a shut off valve at the tank.

Raising the tank is creating a few problems for me.

1.) I can't use the same bottom plate. If I use a different bottom plate, I need to use a different front and side plate.

2.) I need to create a boxed in area under the tank

3.) The overall height might interfere with trunk lids

4.) more problems I haven't thought of

I like the hinge idea, especially for GenIIs where the rear seat needs to be removed to access the front seat release.

weekend rider,

The auxiliary tank needs to be vented. I don't know how a vented tank could also be pressurized. Venting to an overflow tank is a better idea, and I'm told is required for some rallies.

 

[Rogue]

My 2 cents.

I put in an electric pump when I had my Tanji but I also put in quick disconnects on both sides of the pump so that if I ever had a problem with the pump I could take it out of the system and use gravity.

 

[glossblk08]

Like others who have posted before me, this is a very interesting topic. It's wonderful to read the physics & theories from the intelligent members on this forum.

I always ride two-up, so a fuel cell in the passenger area won't work for me. Thinking aloud, has anyone ever seen or known anyone who increased the size of the main fuel tank? Placing the elevated center-of-gravity issue aside for a moment, I was wondering if the upper portion of a main fuel tank can be modified to mimic the shape of a wedge tank bag. My 19L RKA wedge-shape tank bag doesn't get in the way of my handlebar switches when turned lock-to-lock. I was thinking of what the negatives would be if the main tank was a bit wider and taller.

I know the increased fuel capacity wouldn't be as substantial when compared to a auxiliary fuel cell, but it would still be better than stock. Any thoughts?

 

[Rogue]

Like others who have posted before me, this is a very interesting topic. It's wonderful to read the physics & theories from the intelligent members on this forum.
I always ride two-up, so a fuel cell in the passenger area won't work for me. Thinking aloud, has anyone ever seen or known anyone who increased the size of the main fuel tank? Placing the elevated center-of-gravity issue aside for a moment, I was wondering if the upper portion of a main fuel tank can be modified to mimic the shape of a wedge tank bag. My 19L RKA wedge-shape tank bag doesn't get in the way of my handlebar switches when turned lock-to-lock. I was thinking of what the negatives would be if the main tank was a bit wider and taller.

I know the increased fuel capacity wouldn't be as substantial when compared to a auxiliary fuel cell, but it would still be better than stock. Any thoughts?

IIRC one of the big name IBA riders had a ZX11 with the tank built up in one of the IBRs. When I worked on bikes in the mid 80's we raced endurance and there was a CB900F with a real clean larger tank... expanded wider to hold ~9 gal or so I think.

There is also the tail dragger option, I think Hal got his from Sampson.

 

[Canadian FJR]

Any updates?

Canadian FJR

 

[BrunDog]

Here is another Idea for gravity flow.
With the line comming off the tank increase its size than reduce it as you are close to your main tank hook up, Kind of like a venturi effect.

You have volume than pressure at the reduction.

The nice thong about thos is you can do a mock up at almost no cost :construction:

Better yet, I have a perpetual motion machine you might be interested in!! :blink:

-BD

 

[Kirrilian]

What do y'all think about a fuel cell that mounts like this tank bag:

https://bigmakaccess.com/

If I were to build one that's how I would do it,

simple construction

gravity feed

easy on/off (maybe)

can still take pillion (if you want to)

use a plastic tank with metal mount

Can't use your tank bag though, but maybe you could put some small storage places on it or something

 

[Joe2Lmaker]

It's Friday night. My wife's at a party. My son is at a party. I have the house to myself.

What am I doing with my freedom?

Working on the bike.

I must be getting old.

kaitsdad, I found the "little barb" you mentioned here. I'm a little stuck figuring out how I can get it to "slide off of the pump".

 

[2WheelTiger]

What do y'all think about a fuel cell that mounts like this tank bag:
https://bigmakaccess.com/

If I were to build one that's how I would do it,

simple construction

gravity feed

easy on/off (maybe)

can still take pillion (if you want to)

use a plastic tank with metal mount

Can't use your tank bag though, but maybe you could put some small storage places on it or something

Sorry, but gravity feed to what? How do you intend to plumb this?

 

[Joe2Lmaker]

kaitsdad, I found the "little barb" you mentioned here. I'm a little stuck figuring out how I can get it to "slide off of the pump".

Here's what I did:

I pried on this lock tab with a small screw driver as I pulled the fuel pump out of the tank.

Doing that, I was able to get the fuel level sending unit to slide off the fuel pump housing.

Here's a clearer photo of the lock tab I pried on:



I took this photo after removing the unit from the tank and reinstalling the fuel level sending unit. It was the only way I could get a clear photo. Click on the photo. It's a link to the Picasa photo (and album).

 

[Kirrilian]

What do y'all think about a fuel cell that mounts like this tank bag:
https://bigmakaccess.com/

If I were to build one that's how I would do it,

simple construction

gravity feed

easy on/off (maybe)

can still take pillion (if you want to)

use a plastic tank with metal mount

Can't use your tank bag though, but maybe you could put some small storage places on it or something

Sorry, but gravity feed to what? How do you intend to plumb this?

Gravity feed to the main tank with a connector that goes to the fuel cap ring and with an adapter that attaches like the fuel cap and a tube that goes down through the fuel cap adapter into the main tank like the fuel nozzle when you get fuel, bout the same size anyway. I'm not sure if you could rig it where the fuel cell was straight through to the main tank or set it up with a valve at the bottom of the aux tank that you turn when you need fuel like the reserve valve on older bikes.

If this is confusing (and it may not even be technically possible, just throwing out ideas), I'll try and draw something but graphics aren't my strong suit...

I have a couple of questions though, since this bike is fuel injected is the fuel system pressurized like most fuel injection systems are? That may cause issues with this setup since you are going directly into the main tank.

I found this tank bag that is sorta like what I am talking about, but imagine a way to where the fuel could go from an aux fuel tank that mounts like this tank bag into the main tank.

https://www.twistedthrottle.com/imagecatalo...tview/1859/280/

or

https://www.twistedthrottle.com/trade/productview/1859/114/

Make more sense?

Glen

 

[kaitsdad]

kaitsdad, I found the "little barb" you mentioned here. I'm a little stuck figuring out how I can get it to "slide off of the pump".

Here's what I did:

I pried on this lock tab with a small screw driver as I pulled the fuel pump out of the tank.

Doing that, I was able to get the fuel level sending unit to slide off the fuel pump housing.

Here's a clearer photo of the lock tab I pried on:

I took this photo after removing the unit from the tank and reinstalling the fuel level sending unit. It was the only way I could get a clear photo. Click on the photo. It's a link to the Picasa photo (and album).

Joe, glad you figured it out. I just read the post. Yeah, that little sucker can be a pain !

 

[2WheelTiger]

What do y'all think about a fuel cell that mounts like this tank bag:
https://bigmakaccess.com/

If I were to build one that's how I would do it,

simple construction

gravity feed

easy on/off (maybe)

can still take pillion (if you want to)

use a plastic tank with metal mount

Can't use your tank bag though, but maybe you could put some small storage places on it or something

Sorry, but gravity feed to what? How do you intend to plumb this?

Gravity feed to the main tank with a connector that goes to the fuel cap ring and with an adapter that attaches like the fuel cap and a tube that goes down through the fuel cap adapter into the main tank like the fuel nozzle when you get fuel, bout the same size anyway. I'm not sure if you could rig it where the fuel cell was straight through to the main tank or set it up with a valve at the bottom of the aux tank that you turn when you need fuel like the reserve valve on older bikes.

If this is confusing (and it may not even be technically possible, just throwing out ideas), I'll try and draw something but graphics aren't my strong suit...

I have a couple of questions though, since this bike is fuel injected is the fuel system pressurized like most fuel injection systems are? That may cause issues with this setup since you are going directly into the main tank.

I found this tank bag that is sorta like what I am talking about, but imagine a way to where the fuel could go from an aux fuel tank that mounts like this tank bag into the main tank.

https://www.twistedthrottle.com/imagecatalo...tview/1859/280/

or

https://www.twistedthrottle.com/trade/productview/1859/114/

Make more sense?

Glen

Actually, now that you've provided these additional details, it makes LESS sense. Fuel filler caps aren't simple corks. Where are these special adapters you suggest?

The fuel injection system/fuel pump is irrelevent.

I'm not trying to be rude, but lots of people have designed and built aux tanks, and none of them is a floppy tankbag with a nebulous connector. The negatives outweigh the positives. If you need an aux tank and still need to carry a pillion, go with a taildragger design.

We're hijacking a valuable thread.

 

[Joe2Lmaker]

Joe, glad you figured it out. I just read the post. Yeah, that little sucker can be a pain !

I almost called you, but in the end I was able to figure it out based on your write-up <link>

Thanks for blazing the trail Hal !

 

[Kirrilian]

What do y'all think about a fuel cell that mounts like this tank bag:
https://bigmakaccess.com/

If I were to build one that's how I would do it,

simple construction

gravity feed

easy on/off (maybe)

can still take pillion (if you want to)

use a plastic tank with metal mount

Can't use your tank bag though, but maybe you could put some small storage places on it or something

Sorry, but gravity feed to what? How do you intend to plumb this?

Gravity feed to the main tank with a connector that goes to the fuel cap ring and with an adapter that attaches like the fuel cap and a tube that goes down through the fuel cap adapter into the main tank like the fuel nozzle when you get fuel, bout the same size anyway. I'm not sure if you could rig it where the fuel cell was straight through to the main tank or set it up with a valve at the bottom of the aux tank that you turn when you need fuel like the reserve valve on older bikes.

If this is confusing (and it may not even be technically possible, just throwing out ideas), I'll try and draw something but graphics aren't my strong suit...

I have a couple of questions though, since this bike is fuel injected is the fuel system pressurized like most fuel injection systems are? That may cause issues with this setup since you are going directly into the main tank.

I found this tank bag that is sorta like what I am talking about, but imagine a way to where the fuel could go from an aux fuel tank that mounts like this tank bag into the main tank.

https://www.twistedthrottle.com/imagecatalo...tview/1859/280/

or

https://www.twistedthrottle.com/trade/productview/1859/114/

Make more sense?

Glen

Actually, now that you've provided these additional details, it makes LESS sense. Fuel filler caps aren't simple corks. Where are these special adapters you suggest?

The fuel injection system/fuel pump is irrelevent.

I'm not trying to be rude, but lots of people have designed and built aux tanks, and none of them is a floppy tankbag with a nebulous connector. The negatives outweigh the positives. If you need an aux tank and still need to carry a pillion, go with a taildragger design.

We're hijacking a valuable thread.

Well you ARE being rude as are quite a few other people on this board (which is mainly why I don't post much on this board, way to go, stifling creativity and new ideas!), and I assumed that the original poster was open to suggestions according to his initial post and you aren't the original poster so I guess thats up to him. I'm sorry that you can't read or understand what I am trying to say because you have already missed several points I made. For example, I said the fuel cell would be made of plastic or metal not a "floppy tank bag", I used that to illustrate how it would be positioned and mounted, which would be the nebulous connector you still haven't gotten. As far as plumbing, its a straight shot to the main tank from a higher position (gravity feed) than the main tank with a big hole, whats not to get?

Sorry if this is too complex for you to understand, perhaps next time you should wait for the original poster to decide if it is a waste of time or hijacking his thread, because it is HIS, not yours...

Glen

 

[Joe2Lmaker]

I assumed that the original poster ...

Kirrilian,

Remember what they say about assumptions...

I am very open to suggestions. One of the best ones was Post #2 in this thread. kaitsdad offered up a solution for me to consider and I still wonder if I should have just gone that route.

Sorry if this is too complex for you to understand, perhaps next time you should wait for the original poster to decide if it is a waste of time or hijacking his thread, because it is HIS, not yours...

I understood what you had in mind. Andre understands what you have in mind.

I considered your suggestion when I first read it and I chose not to respond. Have you ever seen the movie "Envy" with Jack Black and Ben Stiller? If not, you should. In it there is this classic line:

"It's not an invention. It's an idea."

Your idea needs work. You might be on to something, but no-one else is going to do the work of solving some of the obvious problems.

This is NOT my thread. I don't own it. I'm just sharing this stuff because I thought others might find it interesting.

O.K.?