Birthday Present from a Leo

[motorgod]

Every time one of these threads comes up, I always see people say, "Get an attorney." I have never understood that. Granted, I only have experience in about 6 court jurisdictions, but in my 18 years as a cop, I have yet to see an attorney do anything of significant value for a simple traffic ticket.
For crimes, absolutely, no question about it, the right attorney can make all the difference in the world. But, he was given a speeding ticket, not charged with reckless driving. Remember, a speeding ticket in most jurisdictions is only a violation, which is a pecuniary offense, meaning the only punishment is monetary, with the possibility of license suspension. There is no jail time possible with a violation.

Oh, and for those of you that suggest hiring a lawyer so you can subpoena the entire world. You better hope it works because the court (judge) doesn't take too kindly to a person that ties up valuable court time by going on a fishing expedition. If the lawyer (or you) does some research and learn that the officer wasn't properly trained in the use of whatever device, then by all means, go for it, the officer shouldn't have been using it in the first place. But every time I have had one of those cases (usually it's when the lawyer himself gets the ticket), the judge is very rigid, and not accommodating. But then, in my case, I was appropriately certified, did use the device properly, and had all the necessary records to prove the case.

Granted, I'm spoiled in that the agency I work for now, as well as most of the surrounding agencies, have a pretty good track record for professional behavior, especially in making sure that certifications are maintained, etc. Other areas may be what's feeding the storm of "get an attorney", I don't know.

I agree with everything you have to say. I ticketed an executive from the San Francisco Giants several years back. He was coming from the Silverado Country Club. He did have an attorney, provided by the Giants, who only wanted to quiz me on my radar certification. I'm a LIDAR/RADAR instructor so it was a mute point. The upside was the 3 hrs of O.T. I got to sting the taxpayers with. I was in/out in 45 mins and got the 3 hrs worth of O.T. Hey, before you say I'm ripping off the taxpayer, it's in my MOU. I'm bound by it , thanks to a good bargaining unit. It is really the scafflow who is ripping off the taxpayer by fighting a ticket in which they know they are guilty. There are alternatives, such as written declarations or obeying the law. Fighting tickets with or w/o attorneys seems to be the 'in' thing these days. Most hope the cop won't show. In my case we can get written up for not showing which can lead to disciplinary action. Since I'm working FSS, go ahead an fight them tickets. Everytime I go to court its 3 hrs O.T. :yahoo:

 

[Penforhire]

Anecdotal evidence feeds the attorney craze. Many of us know people who got out of or otherwise reduced the severity of tickets. Sure, many of the tactics can be employed by plain citizens (see ticket assassin). You guys, on the other side of the thin blue line, don't carry a lot of weight on the attorney issue. You stop writing 'em and we'll stop calling the lawyers.

 

[Ignacio]

I concur with ponyfool. It's not like a TV show where a mark of a good defense is how much you frustrate the system....that just usually pisses off the judge. It's how smart you do your homework and find a plausible defense or a glaring error in how they've written you up. ICertainly, laws and court rules vary by state and jurisdiction, but those rules are increasingly online for anybody wanting to spend the time and research themselves to get off.

My most recent (and only one on the FJR) was a misunderstanding between me and a Washington State Trooper about 92 in a 55. Because I did pursue basic discovery and got a copy of the ticket I noticed not only did the officer write the wrong highway down, but he changed it on his copy of the ticket after the stop. That small difference put it in a different county and, therefore, I got the judge to dismiss it before I had to defend against it.

You really are innocent until proven guilty and if you do your own homework you can help make it harder for them to prove it.....or at least not help them.

4 for 4 myself since 1991...knock on wood.

 

[ponyfool]

You stop writing 'em and we'll stop calling the lawyers.

In re-reading my post, I recognized that I didn't make one point clear. I actually LOVE it when the attorney (or the guy that brings the attorney) comes into court. It reaffirms that I know my job, and I know it well. In addition, I usually learn more about it too. While I readily acknowledge that I don't know every "trick" the lawyers try to use, every "trick" I have seen has been easily addressed because I don't have anything to hide. I am certified, know my equipment is properly maintained and know how to access those records if need be. I don't write BS tickets (usually don't even pull over for less than 21 over on speed limits of 45 and higher, 16 over for limits of 35 and under), and I fully explain everything during the stop. I rarely have cases contested, but when I do, I'm ready.

What I really enjoy (call it a perverse sense of satisfaction) is when the lawyer tries "tricks" to fool the system. For example, writing a letter where the letter is dated on one day, but not sent for three weeks, and then trying to convince the judge that we (the police and records management) have failed to respond. What do they think, we don't keep the envelopes???

I use the term "trick" because I am not talking about legitimate issues like Ignacio mentions. I am talking about ones where there are no blatant errors, but they try to make it look like there was one.

 

[Ignacio]

I use the term "trick" because I am not talking about legitimate issues like Ignacio mentions. I am talking about ones where there are no blatant errors, but they try to make it look like there was one.

I wouldn't go as far as suggesting that I haven't been guilty.....I'm just saying that I make the state do it's duty to prove that I am. I just don't make their job easier by admitting I'm guilty. Then that doesn't even get to the issue of whether whacking the throttle on a rural highway when there are no other cars........except that one Impala that took 2 counties to catch up to you is justified or not.

Now that I've gotten my "court legs" after 4 times at bat I can say that I show up with a prioritized list of defenses. Venue was the last one and ended up being one that actually seemed to get the judge's interest as a meaty legal question and I even went back and forth with the prosecutor presenting arguments to the judge.

I did have a variety of other defenses if that didn't work and they devolved increasingly towards that realm that would make people roll their eyes. There were some date issues that I could have legitimately argued, but nothing where I faked anything....just tight timelines by the court rules. That's one reason I prefer the cop not to be there. In Washington it's not a mandatory thing...you're just not automatically off if the cop doesn't show. The bonus with a cop not being there is I find it easier to convince a judge of my story without the person who wrote it there to clarify.

It's actually the system's fault. Number 1 of 4 I was totally NOT guilty and it pissed me off that the cop lied on one point and was totally out-to-lunch on another. He messed with the wrong 20 something. I spent about 40 hours researching that one in a legal library and even the prosecutor said, "I didn't know that. I'll stipulate to his point." An amateur self-attorney career was born

 

[zzzzip]

The only reason I said to lawyer up, is based on my experience around this state, which is the judge or pros. atty. won't even consider a reduction or change in charge UNLESS you have hired one.

Overtime for court??? What's that? Unheard of for those on a salary without a union.

Of course they could all be out catching murderers, bank robbers and *drug crazed-small-animal-fornicating-child-molesters* if they weren't all sitting in court defending their speeding case.

*A small edit to ensure this thread is not turning to politics.

 

[Ignacio]

Of course they could all be out catching murderers, bank robbers and terrorists if they weren't all sitting in court defending their speeding case.

Careful. Please keep it confined to motorcycle related discussions....lest somebody confuse you getting political.

 

[zzzzip]

Of course they could all be out catching murderers, bank robbers and terrorists if they weren't all sitting in court defending their speeding case.

Careful. Please keep it confined to motorcycle related discussions....lest somebody confuse you getting political.

Sure thing. It's your shop.

 

[charismaticmegafauna]

It can be especially beneficial if your attorney and the judge are say.... hunting/fishing buddies -- otherwise, it can be very satisying to successfully plead your own case in court. You may not get all you want -- but, if you do it somewhat right the judge might reduce the fine, etc. After one of my times there, where the judge let me pay a reduced fine and made it so the speeding violation wouldn't go on my driving record (what I really wanted) -- a time where I, mainly, asked questions of the LEO, trying to verify the incident and thus introducing some doubt -- the county attorney said to me later (in the hallway), "Well, you were pretty straight-forward; if you'd'a tried any bull-****, I'd'a hung-you-out-to-dry." The LEO (county deputy) got me aside, too, and said, "If this ever happens again -- lets just resolve it out there on the road."

It takes time tho -- and, can be hard on psyche (lawyers get stomach ulcers).

And, it can be to no avail, too. My friend, Dick, defended his speeding ticket with 8 by 10 color glossy photos (with circles & arrows....) -- and the judge said, "That was a very good defense -- one of the best -- .....unfortunately, I'm not...."

And slammed the gavel.

 

[motorgod]

Back 18 years ago when I worked at Concord PD, (CA), we had several court days and times for traffic contests. The Concord motor unit was extremely effective...anyway there was one judge who would read a list of about 10 of the most common defenses....gong with the flow.....guy tailgating behind me....had to pee....speedometer broken...etc....the judge said if any of those defenses were yours he would find you guilty.....if you appeared and still used one of those defenses you would not get traffic school....if you appeared and lost, you would not get traffic school....over two-thirds of the violators would leave.....however, if you did appear the judge would give you every opportunity to plead your case and he would rule fairly.....guilty.....

 

[Inlaw1]

..unfortunately, I'm not...."And slammed the gavel.

And that's pretty much what happened when my buddy went to court and defended himself. I was a witness as we were riding together at the time. The tickets were for not signaling lane changes (we did, he even signaled his move out of the parking lot) and speeding (we didn't, heck... he had a Stop N Go blocking his view of our trip down that segment of the road most of the time). I was right behind him the whole time, made the same moves yet he was the only one pulled over and written. I will admit we came out of a Friday night car / bike cruise spot and accelerated up to the speed limit rather quickly, but not 'light em up' fast. That's all the officer saw and he wrote whatever tickets he could come up with.

He then lied on the stand and said my buddies bike had loud pipes (The bike was a Triumph limited edition Super III) yet it had factory pipes on it and that he was spinning and smoking his tires. He would of had to of been front brake locked down, up off the seat, dump the clutch and sit there spinning the tire to do such a stunt. Or the bike would of just wheelied over backward before spinning the tired enough to smoke in a straight line. Neither of which happened.

My buddy thought he'd get fair treatment... just go in there and tell the truth with my truth to back him up. The judge didn't care, he took advantage of the fact my buddy was defending himself and didn't have a lawyer. He used what would be proper court room etiquette against my buddy and then he just ignored facts presented. He just automatically sided with the LEO.

If he had a lawyer he would not of gotten run over by the court like he did. That's why, if your going to fight a ticket, it may very well be in your best interest to play by their rules and get yourself a lawyer.

 

[automag928]

Well - I guess I'm one poor schlep who sucked it up, back when I was 18 or 19...Real nice FHP trooper pulled me over on 417 near Disney in Orlando. Clocked me at 100 in a 65 (this was in my little 4 door saturn) He was real nice to me, I was real nice to him, and when I got home my dad whose a LEO said, you know how luck you are you just got this ticket? He said I was lucky not to have a nice matching set of silver bracelets. That point struck home...I paid the $262 dollars got the 4 pts on my license, and my insurance agent said "you might as well gotten a DUI" My insurance went up to almost $4,000 a year LOL Knock on wood, none since then...

Although I have recently seen how easy it is getting up to triple digits passing people on the interstate...holy crap that needle moves fast!

 

[Grumpy]

Every time one of these threads comes up, I always see people say, "Get an attorney." I have never understood that. Granted, I only have experience in about 6 court jurisdictions, but in my 18 years as a cop, I have yet to see an attorney do anything of significant value for a simple traffic ticket.
For crimes, absolutely, no question about it, the right attorney can make all the difference in the world. But, he was given a speeding ticket, not charged with reckless driving. Remember, a speeding ticket in most jurisdictions is only a violation, which is a pecuniary offense, meaning the only punishment is monetary, with the possibility of license suspension. There is no jail time possible with a violation.

Oh, and for those of you that suggest hiring a lawyer so you can subpoena the entire world. You better hope it works because the court (judge) doesn't take too kindly to a person that ties up valuable court time by going on a fishing expedition. If the lawyer (or you) does some research and learn that the officer wasn't properly trained in the use of whatever device, then by all means, go for it, the officer shouldn't have been using it in the first place. But every time I have had one of those cases (usually it's when the lawyer himself gets the ticket), the judge is very rigid, and not accommodating. But then, in my case, I was appropriately certified, did use the device properly, and had all the necessary records to prove the case.

Granted, I'm spoiled in that the agency I work for now, as well as most of the surrounding agencies, have a pretty good track record for professional behavior, especially in making sure that certifications are maintained, etc. Other areas may be what's feeding the storm of "get an attorney", I don't know.

This likely varies state-to-state, however a few years back I was ticketed for an 85 in a 65 by the highway patrol. I hired a lawyer who pleaded my case and asked for no trial or conviction based on my excellent driving record. I hadn't had a ticket in something like 10 or 15 years. However, if I had gotten the second ticket this one would come into play also. I was out the lawyer fee, but had no points. You can believe that I was a very careful driver the next two years until the time period had passed. In this case, the lawyer was well worth the money.

jim

 

[Ignacio]

This likely varies state-to-state, .....However, if I had gotten the second ticket this one would come into play also. I was out the lawyer fee, but had no points. You can believe that I was a very careful driver the next two years until the time period had passed. In this case, the lawyer was well worth the money.

Some states actually have a program for that and call it "deferred prosecution". Washington does (but not traffic school). It is an option one can exercise once every 7 years or so.

I have yet to use it because my attorney may have a fool for a client, but he keeps getting me off contesting. Saving it up in case there's a big triple-digit misunderstanding

 

[jestal]

I'm sure it varies in different jurisdictions but from my experience you are way ahead with an attorney. At least it indicates to them that you are taking the situation seriously and are playing "their" game.

I had a speeding ticket go to court recently and I had an attorney. My case was scheduled for 9:00 on the court docket. I was present along with my attorney. At 9:45 the court was calling cases that were scheduled after mine. My attorney inquired as to what the delay was. He was informed by the proscuting attorney that they were waiting for the officier to arrive!! So...pretty much shoots the theory of getting off if the cop isn't there. In Royal Oak, Michigan, they wait for the cop regardless of when you arrive or when your court appearance is scheduled.

My attorney did "plead" my case to a lesser, no points, offense. They made it clear from the beginning, however, that whatever fine I would have accrued from the original offense would stand regardless of the final offense. Think it has anything to do with revenue generation...???

Doing it yourself without an attorney will likely work some of the time in some of the places but if you want to stack the deck to your best advantage find an attorney that works with the local jurisdiction all the time and hire him. The contacts and knowlege he has is what you are paying for, not just the legal technicalities. Besides, like in my most recent case, those technicalities don't always work.

 

[gr8eyes]

Two years ago, a fellow FJR rider and I were on our way to Mena AR, for a rendevous with 10 other FJR riders for a weekend of fun and sport. Unfortunately we were stopped and ticketed for doing 90 in a 60. At the time I wasn't worried about going to jail or even paying the ticket. I was scared to death of what my wife was going to do when she saw the next insurance bill. Luckily Macks best friend was an attorney in OKC. He visited with the DA in the jurisdiction we got stopped in and though we still had to pay the fine, if we stayed out of trouble for 6 months, the ticket would not go on our record. Needless to say I was well content.

Glenn

 

[tripletango]

Other areas may be what's feeding the storm of "get an attorney", I don't know.

Desperation

 

[Malve]

I just left The San Diego Municipal Court and thought that I'd offer a follow up.

I was referred by a client of mine to an attorney who goes my "Mr. Ticket" here in town. I reluctantly called him and reached his service and when he never returned my call I figured it was a sign to go it alone.

I arrived at court at 10:00am. The letter that I received from the court clearly stated that the ticket was ineligible for the traffic school that would, after paying the fine, make the ticket "go away" meaning no points, no ticket from the insurance company's perspective.

I had my argument prepared and practiced with a multipronged defense with the hopes that the judge, after hearing these points, would consider allowing traffic school. I am not sure at what speed it is it is typically not allowed but at 91 it is most definitely not.

When they called me to the podium and asked.. "how do you plea?"...

I asked if traffic school could be considered. Before I could take a breath and start pleading my case, the judge (she) replied:

I will allow it.

I said thank you.

10 minute wait. 45 seconds in front of the judge.

Case closed.

 

[TheAxeman]

Man Malve, your good luck streak is continuing! :clapping: Luck, however, is a sine curve....

 

[Malve]

Man Malve, your good luck streak is continuing! :clapping: Luck, however, is a sine curve....

Thank you Axeman.

and yes over my lifetime, I have experienced what would seem like statistically impossible runs of good luck and bad. Pretty hard to know when it is about to turn.

On a related note, I just purchased a book reccomended to me by a successful client of mine entitled: "The Luck Factor" Changing your luck, Changing your life. Four Essential Principles by Richard Wiseman.