Boy scouts kill motorcyclist with tree!

[Redfish Hunter]

BTW, have you ever lived or spent any time in Utah? Iif not, then you might want to reserve judgment/comments and wait until the "things" you don't know are determined. Hopefully we will learn them soon.

What the hell is that supposed to mean?

First, I did "reserve judgment". I tried to point out that we don't have enough facts to make a judgment.

Second, are you saying that living, or having lived in Utah gives some special privilege? Are you trying to say that trees/motorcycles/chainsaws/boyscouts somehow act differently in Utah?

I will say that if this is common practice there, it is a wonder their population manages to increase.

 

[HotRodZilla]

Well, Patch and I were using chainsaws when we were 12, but not unsupervised for a couple years after that. However, we grew up around that stuff and knew what would and would not maim/kill us. Unlike the city-boy pansies walking around now thinking they are survivalists because they watch Discovery Channel.

The Boy Scouts are gonna write a check for this, and it will come down to the "lack of supervision" that led to a death. Remember, if those two boys had fallen into the roadway and been run over by a semi, the parents would be screaming for blood.

This troop fell into the same problem tons of kids activities have had for years. People want their kids to join an activity, but use it like a babysitting service. I have coached kids football, soccer, and softball. Every time, there have been parents that dropped off their kids and disappeared. My wife was 8 months pregnant helping me run drills with kids while their parents sat on their asses and did nothing but watch.

Us and the military go by 'span of control' of about 1:5. Meaning during most situations, there's one supervisor for every 5 guys/girls. Depending on the work, this ratio can change a little. I am a firearms instructor and teach our cadet classes. During cadet firearms, we are at a 1:2 ratio. One of us to two of them. They have loaded, live firearms and if one freaks out, we have to be able to react. As the days progress, our ratio can change, but never below 1:5.

A bunch of excited teenage boys with chainsaws, axes, shovels, and other tools in the forest? Span of control should have been 1:2, maybe 1:3. BUT, there are two leaders "and well, dad is busy trying to bang his secretary, so you guys can handle it; right?"

So two boys get lost in the mix when the leaders are keeping a close eye on the ones actively using power tools. I'm sure the two boys were supposed to stay in a cretain area, but teenagers and most adults can't be trusted, so they walked off, started screwing off, and killed a man.

I doubt the DA's office will go after two 12yo boys, and I'd bet they'll have a hard time proving criminal negligence on the adults IF the adults were trying to do what they were supposed to be doing. However, civil liability is a whole other deal. The Boy Scouts will be found negligent by not having enough trained adults supervising the kids.

As I said before, if that had led to a dead/injured kid, parents would be freaking out. Since it only led to an 'accident' involving some guy on a motorcycle, no one is too concerned, which is total bullshit.

I'm glad the DA seems to be taking this more seriously than originally reported. I guess we'll see what happens.

 

[RPrice]

Well, Patch and I were using chainsaws when we were 12, but not unsupervised for a couple years after that. However, we grew up around that stuff and knew what would and would not maim/kill us. Unlike the city boy pansies walking around now thinking they are survivalists because they watch Discovery Channel.
The Boy Scouts are gonna write a check for this, and it will come down to the "lack of supervision" that led to a death. Remember, if those two boys had fallen into the roadway and been run over by a semi, the parents would be screaming for blood.

This troop fell into the same problem tons of kids activities have had for years. People want their kids to join an activity, but use it like a babysitting service. I have coached kids football, soccer, and softball. Every time, there have been parents that dropped off their kids and disappeared. My wife was 8 months pregnant helping me run drills with kids while their parents sat on their asses and did nothing but watch.

Us and the military go by 'span of control' of about 1:5. Meaning during most situations, there's one supervisor for every 5 guys/girls. Depending on the work, this ratio can change a little. I am a firearms instructor and teach our cadet classes. During cadet firearms, we are at a 1:2 ratio. One of us to two of them. They have loaded, live firearms and if one freaks out, we have to be able to react. As the days progress, our ratio can change, but never below 1:5.

A bunch of excited teenage boys with chainsaws, axes, shovels, and other tools in the forest? Span of control should have been 1:2, maybe 1:3. BUT, there are two leaders and well, dad is busy trying to bang his secretary, so you guys can handle it; right?

So two boys get lost in the mix when the leaders are keeping a close eye on the ones actively using power tools. I'm sure the two bous were supposed to stay in a cretain area, but teenagers and most adults can't be trusted, so they walked off, started screwing off, and killed a man.

I doubt the DA's office will go after two 12yo boys, and I'd bet they'll have a hard time proving criminal negligence on the adults IF they were trying to do what they were supposed to be doing. However, civil liability is a whole other deal. The Boy Scouts will be found negligent by not having enough trained adults supervising the kids.

As I said before, if that had led to a dead/injured kid, parents would be freaking out. Since it only led to an 'accident' involving some guy on a motorcycle, no one is too concerned, which is total bullshit.

I'm glad the DA seems to be taking this more seriously than originally reported. I guess we'll see what happens.

+1, This probably sums it up!

 

[RPrice]

BTW, have you ever lived or spent any time in Utah? Iif not, then you might want to reserve judgment/comments and wait until the "things" you don't know are determined. Hopefully we will learn them soon.

What the hell is that supposed to mean?

First, I did "reserve judgment". I tried to point out that we don't have enough facts to make a judgment.

Second, are you saying that living, or having lived in Utah gives some special privilege? Are you trying to say that trees/motorcycles/chainsaws/boyscouts somehow act differently in Utah?

I will say that if this is common practice there, it is a wonder their population manages to increase.

Redfish,

You may want to research what it's supposed to "mean". You might want to review the earlier posts for clues.

I am absolutely not saying that living in Utah gives me any privilege, but it does give me some local knowledge about how investigations involving similar incidents are handled. BTW, I'm a retired LEO, so I kinda know how things "go down" there.

Yep, the population of Utah is among the fastest growing in the US!!

And the preceding post from Zilla kinda nails it.

The bottom line for me is that I hope the truth comes out and justice is served.

That's "what the hell I mean".

 

[Redfish Hunter]

Since 'Zilla and I are in complete agreement and since I did read all of the posts and the links to the newspaper, I think I have all the "clues" I need. I still don't know what point you are trying to get across to me. I guess I am just clueless.

 

[RPrice]

Since 'Zilla and I are in complete agreement and since I did read all of the posts and the links to the newspaper, I think I have all the "clues" I need. I still don't know what point you are trying to get across to me. I guess I am just clueless.

No, you're not clueless, but the thread might be closed if any further discussion occurs. I just trust in what other members have said that a complete and thorough investigation will occur and that the Boy Scouts will benefit from the investigation, and that improved leadership and management will be implemented.

I'll shoot you a PM!

 

[stealth1]

Just announced today that no charges will be filed regarding this incident.

https://fox13now.com/2015/03/12/no-charges-will-be-filed-against-boy-scouts-who-cut-down-tree-causing-fatal-crash/

PANGUITCH, Utah — After a five month investigation, Garfield County Attorney Barry Huntington said he has decided not to file charges against a group of Boy Scouts who cut down a tree that fell on State Route 12, resulting in the death of a Colorado man who hit the tree while riding a motorcycle.

According to a memorandum from Huntington’s office, Huntington determined there was not enough evidence that the boys who cut down the tree had the legally required mental state, intent or recklessness in actions to convince a jury that a crime had been committed. Huntington also said law enforcement agencies involved in the case determined the incident was a tragic accident.

Joe Dougherty of the Utah Department of Public Safety said the motorcyclist, 69-year-old Edgar E. Rickie, of Durango, Colorado had no time to react.

“It probably happened in a matter of milliseconds,” Dougherty said. “Literally this man had no option; there was nothing he could do to avoid this tree falling.”

A press release from the Utah Department of Public Safety said the group of Boy Scouts had a permit to cut down the trees for firewood and that they were under adult supervision.

The press release also said the boys had a permit to cut down trees, and that they were under adult supervision.

“We know that two boys had stepped away from the main group that was cutting trees, and they were the ones that happened to fell this tree,” Dougherty said.

Rickie was wearing a helmet. A passerby called 911, and a doctor who was with the Boy Scout group pronounced the man dead at the scene, according to the press release.

 

[wheatonFJR]

Those boys didn't get off completely scot-free. They will know that the results of their actions killed a man.

That's not a light load.

 

[Fred W]

This is totally disgusting. I see this as just another poor attempt at (in)accurate reporting in the modern media. And there are no shortages of that lately.

 

[SacramentoMike]

Lack of charges filed in court does not mean lack of a solid civil case, and I'm sure there'll end up being some kind of award if the family pursues it. Not that a civil judgment of any amount could in any way "right" the harm suffered by the rider's family, but then, neither does a criminal conviction, really. And face it, the 12-y.o.'s could never have really been criminally prosecuted for this, and it's very unlikely to me that the leaders/scoutmasters could have been either. I'm afraid nobody wins here, no matter what. Sad story all around.

 

[Uncle Hud]

<snipped> I'm afraid nobody wins here, no matter what. Sad story all around.

Agree. Tragic for all involved.

 

[Big Sky]

I'm no lawyer, but to have criminal charges filed probably the act would need to go beyond negligence and toward malice and intent. Still, there will be civil negligence in a wrongful death. The Scouts may have some sort of insurance coverage, which the survivors of the victim - the estate - will pursue. The assets of the organization could be at risk too. Here is what the sad family will discover when it comes to being awarded damages: a 69-year-old-man's life is not worth very much. These become mostly economic issues - loss of future potential earnings, etc. Where there may be some real financial relief would be in punitive damages, which may or may not (Utah?) have some limits.

Yes, knowing your stupidity cost a man his life and deprived his survivors of his companionship may be some measure of punishment. But no damage award will bring him back or fill the hole in the family's hearts. No winners here. We must hope some grave lessons were learned.