braking distance

[RiderCoach Lar]

I may still buy an FJR but I'd sure like to see some test DATA, not opinion, that indicates the brakes are really good, not just mediocre.

I think it's been pointed out quite clearly in this thread that the black-and-white data that you seek in order to determine if the FJR brakes are "good" is somewhat pointless. Again, even if you could control every variable in the testing process, you're not lkely to see those exact variables on the street.....ever.

Bottom line: the FJR brakes are far MORE than adequate for street riding and may even improve in '08. If you haven't ridden a FJR, do it and see for yourself. Are there better brakes? Yep. There's also much worse.

You imply that opinion is more credible than data? In the case of brakes, I could not disagree more. I trust the opinions of the riders on this forum, who put their FJR's through their paces on the street every day FAR more than any test data. To my knowledge, no one has ever found themselves in trouble on their FJR because their brakes were inadequate. However, you'll find plenty of comments about how good their brakes were when it really counted.

 

[jestal]

Keep in mind that there are lots of compromises built into various braking systems and components. Brakes designed for pure track work are not necessarily good on the street in day-to-day use and vice versa. In a stopping comparison as discussed above the emphasis is on one stop so brakes that work well when cold would be desireable vs. track requirements. Good track brakes are relatively poor cold and are designed for no fade and operation when smoking hot.

Brake pads are a compromise between feel, wear rate, operating temp range, noise (everyone hates squeeling brakes), etc.

The tires are always going to be the limiting factor as mentioned above. The traction the tire has depends on the tire composition itself AND the amount of weight or force pressing the tire into the pavement. What governs this and hasn't been mentioned yet is the center of gravity of the bike, weight distribution, suspension reaction, etc. The test comparing unloaded vs. loaded starts to address this difference. A touring bike that is designed for loaded operation might not look as good in braking comparisons with only a single rider aboard but could shine in a two-up and fully loaded comparison.

Assuming all of this ,common sense still tells you that you can lock the front and rear tire at will on most modern street bikes so the mechanical "brakes" are not necessarily the issue. All the other variables come into play to make braking distances different from one bike to another.

Another misconception is that ABS reduces absolute stopping distances. It really doesn't and that isn't why it is put on the bike. ABS prevents tire lockup so the operator doesn't have to modulate the brakes in a panic situation. Overall, this likely does lead to shorter stopping distances in real world panic situations (if you could possibly recreate a "panic" situation with and without ABS). This is a good example of why braking comparisons under optimum conditions can be misleading. A friendly ABS system might actually lead to longer stopping distances under (rare) optimum conditions but would still be the desireable "brakes" to have under real world conditions. If the OEM tunes the ABS operation for optimum conditions then it might not be as "friendly" under real world situations. From reports on the forum the FJR ABS seems to be very user friendly in the real world which is the desireable condition......not necessarily tuned for stopping contests on dry pavement.

 

[RRA]

ABS adds a couple of things to the mix, in thoerey it allows a total beginner to stop the bike in near same distance as an expert, in practice that is still not the case most of the time. And it allows the min braking distance on pavement of unknown condition. Another design objective is to allow the rider to maintain control during the entire braking process, this allows for an escape route to be employed. Any bikes brakes may or may not stop you in time to avoid an accident that is why the MSF teaches "always have an escape route". Don't fixate on the obstacle but rather focus on missing the object.

So as previously stated, judging a braking systems effectiveness is more than just stopping distance on dry payment.

RRA

 

[madmike2]

And because I'm not a professional rider I should not have the best brakes possible?
So far, only anecdotal info disagrees with the test and the objective NHTSA info is ambiguous at best (04 vs. 07, differences between lightly loaded and fully loaded).

You are correct in your thought process. If your conclusion is based on the absolute need for the absolute shortest stopping distance as a criterion for your purchase, the decision is made. If you are looking for an alternative conclusion based on a criterion of "actual need" in everyday riding, you have enough information to alter your original conclusion.

Everything else is a circular, or at best, nebulous discussion. The variables are to great as we are not you and you are not us. Besides height and weight of rider, weight of possible passenger, weight of luggage on any given day or instance of need, muscle memory, perception, risk assessment/reaction time, and actual practice time on the bike and with the system are only a few of the variables.

That being said, the side by side test give you a good outline of what you might expect. At some point, the comparisons will arrive at the same level of discussion as other comparison criteria: The differences in the bikes are so miniscule it they are a matter of need/taste of the potential owner. In my opinion, there are no bad ST offerings.

I chose the FJR because I wanted one. I modify what doesn't suit or fit me, including changing tire brands and brake pads.

Personally, the brakes are more than adequate for me. The previous generation of R-1 brakes on this SportTouring street motorcycle stop me as quickly as I've ever needed. If 25 of stopping distance @ 60 mph is the difference in being injured, what percentage of that is because I didn't perceive, recognize and properly react to the danger by avoidance rather than last second braking.

You have our opinions and arguments. Good luck with whatever decision you make and enjoy whichever bike you ultimately decide on. As another contributor said, all bikes have issues to be addressed. They're only machines operated by humans.

 

[wfooshee]

ABS adds a couple of things to the mix, in thoerey it allows a total beginner to stop the bike in near same distance as an expert, in practice that is still not the case most of the time. And it allows the min braking distance on pavement of unknown condition.

'Fraid not.

ABS keeps the wheels rolling. That's all. The way it does this is by RELEASING the brakes when it detects lockup, or if quick enough, impending lockup. It re-applies immediately, but it's basic function is to release the brakes. In no way can it possibly contribute to minimum stopping distance.

In sand and gravel, minimum distance is achieved with full lock-up. Not ideal with only 2 wheels, though. I had a scare in my car on a dirt road when I came to a previously non-existant stop sign, nailed the brakes, and coasted through the intersection (thankfully unoccupied) in perfect and complete non-skid control, completely unable to slow down.

Another design objective is to allow the rider to maintain control during the entire braking process, this allows for an escape route to be employed. Any bikes brakes may or may not stop you in time to avoid an accident that is why the MSF teaches "always have an escape route". Don't fixate on the obstacle but rather focus on missing the object.
So as previously stated, judging a braking systems effectiveness is more than just stopping distance on dry payment.

The last part I agree with completely.

 

[RRA]

'Fraid not.
In no way can it possibly contribute to minimum stopping distance.

I'm not trying to be argumentative but "Fraid so"

According to the MSF, skidding the tires will always lead to longer stopping distances, compared to optimal braking tecnique. So by preventing skid ABS contributes to shorter stopping distances by anyone anywhere, except an expert who knows the exact tire and payment conditions.

Lets face it you don't ever know the exact pavement conditions unless you've tested it. In lu of this ABS helps stop you in the shortest possible manner, is it the absolute minimum? No. But for most people it will be as good or better than they could otherwise achieve.

I'm not a big fan of ABS, I think there are times when a highly skilled rider can use a tire skid to get save himself.

 

[wfooshee]

According to the MSF, skidding the tires will always lead to longer stopping distances, compared to optimal braking tecnique. So by preventing skid ABS contributes to shorter stopping distances by anyone anywhere, except an expert who knows the exact tire and payment conditions.

On a good surface, yes. Absolutely. On a loose surface, no. That's my caveat when someone says ABS gives you better stops. That was my dirt road example.

And on a good surface, a rider relying on ABS will ride past a rider using the brakes properly, held just at impending lock. Every time. But he probably will stop better than he would without ABS in a panic stop. I agree with that.

Hopefully loose surface won't apply while on 2 wheels. Did that once, that was enough.

 

[CODan]

Guys, I'm not bagging on the FJR. It's a great bike, I wouldn't be strong considering it otherwise.

The ONLY data that I have

1) MCN review - mediocre stopping results

2) NHTSA - ambiguous results

If there is more data that indicates to the contrary I would love to see it.

Some anecdotal info generally indicates that the FJR brakes work very well, but there is also anecdotal info that indicates to the contrary.

Stopping power is NOT the only criteria in my decision.

But is an important consideration.

I did not mean to cause trouble, just want info.

Geeeeeeez, I give up.

 

[FJR1300Mark]

Looks like the "best" stopping mc in the test sited above was the bmw f650 - it stopped in 63 feet vs FJR at 78.

That supprises me - but often times the facts can do that. I have a cb750 an on a good day when I'm really on my game I think I can stop almost as quick or quicker than on my FJR - at slower speeds. But the breaks on the FJR are tremendous. I have only once had to use the brakes on the FJR way more than I should have if I have planned my trajectory better. They performed perfectly. I know the result on the honda would have been a different story.

I traded rides on a bmw 1150r a few weeks ago. Nice bike, it feels a little lighter as it is. It also feels a little top heavy in comparision. And the brakes do not inspire that same level of confidence as the fjr. Again if I was at 100% on my riding skills that day I might be able to stop as fast as the fjr.

Another factor to consider is how fast or short can the car infront of and behind you stop. I have not tried it but I'm pretty certain I can outstop most cars. Thats good when they are in front of you but maybe not as good when they are behind you.

I'm very satisfied with the the FJR brakes.

 

[wfooshee]

It should be considered by anyone shopping bikes that at maximum braking power, a motorcycle generally cannot stop faster than a car at its maximum braking power. A quick glance at some magazines shows about 20 -30 feet further at 60 MPH on the bikes. Goes back to the tire issue: the bike has nowhere near as much rubber on the road.

Yes, you can stop fast enough to get rear-ended, but that's not because you stop faster, it's because you're stopping before he can react.

Check the OEM tires mounted on those magazibe test bikes, if you can. The chart in post #5 says nothing about tires.

 

[okmac]

There are so many variables in a braking comparison that can change the no's. It's like anyone can make a graph say what the person wants it to.

I guess I am from the old school, but I would suggest you ride a FJR and really get on the brakes . You had better have real still wrists or you might go over the front end.

My last two bikes were a gold wing and a BMW and I can tell you for sure the FJR will stop faster than either of those two. No graphs, no charts just experience.

Mac

 

[Bustanut joker]

I see neverending here soon

:jester:

 

[Fred W]

Way back in this thread wfooshee hit the nail squarely on the head.

How fast a bike (or any vehicle for that matter) can brake has very little to do with the vehicle's brakes. Pretty much any bike or car has more than enough brake force to lock-up the wheels (which is to say, too much) so the "brakes" aren't the thing being measured at all.

The things that effect braking distance are (primarily) with all other conditions being equal:

The amount of traction provided by the tires (and that is mostly the front tire)

and

The weight of the vehicle.

I, for one, would never pick a bike based on "braking performance" tests. That "testing" is flawed unless they all have the same exact tires, same rider, same track, same weather, same etc., etc.

In which case they should each stop in sequential order based upon weight.

So, if you are really concerned about stopping distance, buy the lightest bike and put down that cheeseburger.

 

[TestPilot]

......Some anecdotal info generally indicates that the FJR brakes work very well, but there is also anecdotal info that indicates to the contrary.

Haven't heard any anecdotal info 'that indicates to the contrary', but I have heard plenty that "indicates that the FJR brakes work very well"

Maybe you can share with us the source of the anecdotal info to the contrary so we can also be better informed.

 

[jestal]

Get strong enough brakes and sticky tires and you start doing "stoppies". In that case the CG of the bike will limit the stopping distance as how high a "stoppie" you can stand/handle will be the limit braking threshold......

 

[CODan]

well, i can't find the posts anymore, so maybe i'm just wrong.

Everyone except MCN seems to agree that FJR brakes are excellent.

 

[twowheelnut]

well, i can't find the posts anymore, so maybe i'm just wrong.
Everyone except MCN seems to agree that FJR brakes are excellent.

There you go, then. Enjoy your new ST.

 

[madmike2]

"Like a circle in a spiral...like a wheel within a wheel...Never ending nor beginning......"

 

[HYCLE]

"Like a circle in a spiral...like a wheel within a wheel...Never ending nor beginning......"

I just had to add to this discussion the fact that every time I use the brakes on the FJR it either slows down or stops. Is that normal or should I be running into something in order to stop? By my guestimate my brakes are 100 percent effective based on my personal experiance. Can't get much better than that.

 

[Wicked Webby]

Gotta say this,

My FJR brakes work great! In fact, many guys(old CRA racer friends of mine) that ride with me on their liter rockets have commented about how fast the binders work on the FJR.

I agree that braking distances need to be compared in a controlled environment side-by-side with the same tires, levers adjusted equally, suspensions set equal and same control rider doing numerous brake runs. Also, remember the human error factor... Reaction times vary and at that speed 10ths of a second equal a lot of feet. They need to have some type of robot controlled setup (like the crash test dummy industry, or myth busters!!) to really make a true fair assesment. Kinda like those "corrected" quarter mile times a lot of magazine report.

I am not discounting how well the other bikes braked BUT I highly doubt that the FJR's brakes are poor performers with regard to any standard. My 07's ABS system has saved my ass before and I would never say its under par(or over par for you golfers).

WW