Cautionary Tales about Seth Laam!

[garyahouse]

The wound be healed

And lips stop'd flappin'

But beware the scar

Should this 'gin happen...

Gary

darksider #44

 

[RJAMT]

Thanks everyone for kind responses. I have another set of seats too, that was my plan all along, to never stop riding.I wasn't worried about how long it takes Seth to make me a set, my issue was solely and ONLY in the lack of communication.

BTW, I asked Seth to take off the leather and replace with vinyl. As good as it leather looks it had my butt sliding on it like it was oiled. I was flying back and forth on every stop and start. The only time I got good friction (of course -haha) is when my butt got wet in the rain. The things would get particularly bad when I wore overpaints (vs jeans). Now I ride on the stock seat, and while my *** hurts after an hour at least it stays put. Seth offered some sort of carbon-like looking vinyl, hope it will hold me in place.

When I got mine back, vinyl also, I was sliding around like it was made of ice. I called and Kaarin told me they clean them with Pledge right before shipping and I should wipe it down with warm soapy water. I did and now I can actually stay on the seat when stopping!

 

[TomInPA]

I'm glad to see Seth replying to concerns. I really hope he gets his business mojo moving in the right direction. This is a pattern I have seen in small business in the past, and I know he can come back and be good, for as long as he is motivated. Still, this is an individual operation, and having been a sole proprietor since 1996, I know very well how the business follows the owner's health, motivation, and workload management skills.

Seth started his business only 3-years ago, so hopefully he has a long run ahead of him, and this is just a bump in the road. Demand for his work has grown faster than his business, and that is the hardest part of business. Making the leap to employees and an organization to meet demand for a skill and value owned by an individual is painful and expensive. Most don't make it. I truly wish him the best, but customers need to be cautious until he makes this transition.

 

[russperry]

I have no experience with Seth, nor do I know the OP, but I think the post has value and the various responses confirm it. It also is a point lesson about documenting issues even in the absence of already prevailing and well known data and the plight of whistleblowers around the world.

Think of the various examples in life that are much bigger in scale where silence can be purchased and a festering problem be allowed to boil away with damage to others that could have been brought to light earlier. I'm not comparing the scale of this seat issue with bigger global problems but the situations are many similarities:

1) Catholic church scandal - for years priests were shuttled from parish to parish to cover up widespread abuse. And who knows how many hundreds of complaints were either not believed or silenced through other methods. Imagine someone accusing your priest of these things when your own experience is only positive?

2) Spider issues on 2nd Gen FJRs - complaints made on the board for years eventually leading to board members creating fixes. It was only once complaints were filed officially in Canada that a recall was finally issued. If everyone had suffered in silence, or if Yamaha had decided to silence complainers one by one (why didn't they do that? it would have saved them a lot of $$) then a recall would likely never been issued.

3) Mulitple cases of water contamination caused by fracking (many documentaries available - I recommend watching Gasland) - in several instances people who's water supply has been destroyed have been bought off by gas companies agreeing to provide them with truck delivered water in exchange for silence. Those agreements keep wide-spread solutions from ever being forced to the surface.

So what does the post and follow up show? Many of these same traits:

1) People accuse the OP of an agenda even in the face of some proof he has acted in good faith through the attached email chain - it is not consistent with their own experience so should be dis-believed.

2) People from both sides reporting anecdotal evidence to support opinions. But it is in the reporting of both sides that you actually can actually begin to see trends and statistics that are much more valuable than just single point data.

3) And finally - a response from the subject once the accusation goes public in a respected forum. This is the best outcome and one of the great reasons for the existence of forums like this. Is there any reason to think that without the public venting that it would have been resolved? There's no reason to think so based on the email chain and lack of progress prior to the exposure here.

In any case this thread seems quite interesting and valuable on many fronts. I agree with Tom - hopefully Mr. Laam sorts out his business and finds a way to successfully expand to meet the demand. He obviously does good work and it would be a shame to see it disintegrate - its great to have respected and trusted businesses out there with whom we can trust our money and our toys

 

[Tiger_993]

The way the original post was worded will lead some to incorrectly believe that payment for a new Laam seat is to be made upfront. That is not the case. When you order a seat, you are not billed until the seat is complete and ships. In fact, in my case 6 weeks ago, Seth did not even call me to get a CC number until after I had received the custom seat back from him.

The OP's situation appears to be that he had previously ordered and received a custom Laam seat, did not like either the fit or his original choice of leather instead of vinyl, so he sent his seat back to Seth to be reworked, which Seth does for free. Obviously, the rework process has been poorly handled by Seth, since the OP was left to flap in the wind with no communication, but it's important to note that you are not paying for a custom seat upfront when you order from Laam.

As for me, I would have no hesitation ordering another seat from him. My experience was wonderful and while there are a number of legitimate internet complaints about lack of communication or long lead times, there seem to be far more customers like me who have had a great experience. So let's see....solo craftsman with a young business who really takes pride in his work? Sounds good to me. Over promises delivery times, doesn't respond in a timely manner, requires me to leave multiple messages before getting an answer? Sounds like half the people I work with.

 

[redzgrider]

And all the back and forth is for naught if the seats still don't show up...

Reads to me as though all there is so far is yet another promise to put the check in the mail.

 

[HotRodZilla]

Kampod, I am very glad you got some communication, and I still hope things move as they are supposed to. Please don't freak out at my skepticism about your post. Absolutely not trying to be an ***, I'm just VERY careful about taking sides or expressing serious opinions until I have lots of info. It's kind of what I do!

Stick around, and go on a ride with TominPA from CA. No matter what, you will be the most handsome man on the ride.

 

[gixxerjasen]

Yep stick around, become "Friends" with these guys and you'll see how the camaraderie works around here.

How the camaraderie works here you say? The longer you are here the more likely the other guys will throw you under the bus.

 

[Redfish Hunter]

I am always a skeptic and I like to hear both sides of a story before I make a decision. I "know" Seth Laam. I still do not "know" Mr. Kampod.

While I am truly pleased that this story seems to have a positive outcome I am not ready to join the Kampod fan club. Nor am I ready to express any regret at being skeptical of Mr. Kampod's story. Since the first thing I ever heard from him was a public defamation of someone I trust... I am not ready to blindly trust Mr. Kampod. And remember folks, I would be defensive of an outsider speaking ill of any of you without hearing your side of the story. And yes, I do know Seth has had some growing pains.

He sent his seats in to be customized and was not happy with...what? Well, that happens as we all know. But it must have been a major change, not just a minor rework if it involved changing the outer covering from leather to vinyl. What exactly were the terms of that agreement? Is that part of the "free" adjustment? Was Mr. Kampod truly wronged or was he in fact the customer from hell?

The fact is we don't know. None of us know. I am glad he got to talk to Seth. I hope he does get his seat back soon. I hope he becomes a valuable and trusted member of this forum. None of that has happened yet.

 

[HotRodZilla]

****...Out of likes^^^^^

 

[101stpathfinder]

RDL

 

[escapefjrtist]

****...Out of likes^^^^^

Gotcha covered HRZ!

--G

 

[JamesK]

To everyone who replied to my post:
I just got a call from Seth. We agreed on everything, and I can't express how relived I am.

To anyone who though I'm a fake - no, I'm not. I'm not an evil competitor, or a troll. Please send me private message, I'll give you my phone number, and will be happy to give you as may details about myself as you wish. I'm new as a member to this forum, but I was reading it for as long as I had FJR (actually - longer). And not all of us have something to say... until there is something to say.

To anoyone who thinks there was a better way to handle it: this post was an act of desperation, as I'm felt that I didn't have any options left. I also warned SL that I'm going to do this unless he calls me, this was not a backstabbing without a warning. Someone suggested that I would ride over and resolve it, well, that's just stupid. I live across the country, and coming over would cost me more than buying a whole new seat all over again.

Since my issue was resolved I would like to remove this post now, and I'll ask forum administration to help me, as I certainly don't want to hurt this guy business and he was very apologetic and genuine.

I'm glad your issue with Seth is in the process of being resolved.

The "ride over" comment was mine, and it was not made as joke, I was serious. In my mind it was a perfect excuse (justification) for a ride across this great country an extra time. When it comes to bikes/riding money/cost of this wonderful activity cannot be measured in the traditional sense, at least that's how it is with me

 

[dcarver]

To everyone who replied to my post:
I just got a call from Seth. We agreed on everything, and I can't express how relived I am.

To anyone who though I'm a fake - no, I'm not. I'm not an evil competitor, or a troll. Please send me private message, I'll give you my phone number, and will be happy to give you as may details about myself as you wish. I'm new as a member to this forum, but I was reading it for as long as I had FJR (actually - longer). And not all of us have something to say... until there is something to say.

To anoyone who thinks there was a better way to handle it: this post was an act of desperation, as I'm felt that I didn't have any options left. I also warned SL that I'm going to do this unless he calls me, this was not a backstabbing without a warning. Someone suggested that I would ride over and resolve it, well, that's just stupid. I live across the country, and coming over would cost me more than buying a whole new seat all over again.

Since my issue was resolved I would like to remove this post now, and I'll ask forum administration to help me, as I certainly don't want to hurt this guy business and he was very apologetic and genuine.

I'm glad your issue with Seth is in the process of being resolved.

The "ride over" comment was mine, and it was not made as joke, I was serious. In my mind it was a perfect excuse (justification) for a ride across this great country an extra time. When it comes to bikes/riding money/cost of this wonderful activity cannot be measured in the traditional sense, at least that's how it is with me

For a guy named JameK, with all the miles on a small patch of earth.. well said.

 

[kampod]

I'm glad your issue with Seth is in the process of being resolved.
The "ride over" comment was mine, and it was not made as joke, I was serious. In my mind it was a perfect excuse (justification) for a ride across this great country an extra time. When it comes to bikes/riding money/cost of this wonderful activity cannot be measured in the traditional sense, at least that's how it is with me

JamesK - I'm with you, man, at least in principal. Riding across the country is always somewhat of a "One of those days" dreams... But if miracle happens and I get cleared by my wife and my boss for the once-in-a-lifetime trip (chances only slightly < 0) the virtual problem remans... I need a seat that I can use to ride far... the stock one kills me. I was never been able to push pass 7 hours, with the last 4 ranging from sever to excruciating pushinment That won't get me much further than Chicago... with another 2-3 thousands miles to go

As for the seat Seth already made me - it was better than stock but had few issues: I was unable to stay put in it. Each stop and would throw me out of it. Reason: leather and small pocket. I didn't have any space to move for the same reason, having only one position which I must have maintained at all the time (impossible on the slippery leather). Seath said that he made so many FJR seats by now that he knows exactly what I need, and I'm going to trust him that the remade seat will be better. And no leather.

I can't figure out how to embed an image here, but here is a link to my Google photo of the seat:

 

[Fred W]

Too bad you didn't post up here about your dissatisfaction with the seat cover. There are a few things that you could have tried that may have resolved the slipping without having to go with vinyl.

One thing that I've found is that liberal use of Lexol on my Russell leather seats makes them somewhat tacky. The effect is short lived, but Lexol is not that expensive and it;s actually good for the seat leather too. I'm sure there are some other topical treatments that would have given some sort of results.

The other point to consider is that it might not have been the cover that was the root cause of your problem; it might have been the shape, or slope of the seat foam. When I first received my first Russell seat for my 2005 I had the "slipping/sliding" into the tank issue. I sent it back to Russell and they shaved more foam out of the rear of the seat "bucket", which altered the slope and eliminated any tendency to slide forward.

As for doing reviews on the internet, many re-sellers have customer comments sections these days, and I often will read them before purchasing a product to see if there are any common complaints or tips on purchasing (like sizing info, etc.) Regardless of how great something is, there are always a few negative reviews, some that are particularly scathing. Anyone that would shy away from a product or service because of a handful negative reviews is pretty naive. You have to put your internet filter on, read a fair sampling of the reviews and make your determination based on the total tone.

I mean, geeze... I've read where a few people can't stand to ride on a Russell Daylong seat, when in reality they are the best thing since sliced bread (except for the price that is).

 

[Bounce]

And the only think "crazy expensive" about a Russell is what you spend on everything else while trying to avoid buying one in the first place.

 

[kampod]

And the only think "crazy expensive" about a Russell is what you spend on everything else why trying to avoid buying one in the first place.

where do I sign?

 

[wheatonFJR]

And the only think "crazy expensive" about a Russell is what you spend on everything else why trying to avoid buying one in the first place.

I had a RDL for my first FJR and was satisfied...but I believe I will still be very satisfied with these LAAM seats.

And so far my correspondence with Kaarin@Laam has been timely and prompt...no issues for me. Should get my seats soon.

I will give a full report when that is done.

 

[gixxerjasen]

I've never had a Lamm seat--or even sat on one--but the reputation is pretty good. And I have never before heard about any of these problems before. If they were out there, I don't think they came up here. Could be wrong. So I'm saying all the information here about this vendor is new to me, and I'd guess it is for most of us on the forum.

It's out there, see below.

I am always a skeptic and I like to hear both sides of a story before I make a decision. I "know" Seth Laam. I still do not "know" Mr. Kampod.

That's all well and good, but for those of us who know neither of them, we have to work on the evidence presented. Kampod did present some pretty compelling evidence.

That said, there is compelling evidendce here on this very forum that supports kampod's story. I didn't have to search very hard to come up with these, and for what it's worth, they turned up using our very own forum's search tool which has a poor reputation for finding stuff.

Entire thread on communication issues.

https://www.fjrforum.com/forum//index.php/topic/162756-is-laam-seat-still-in-business/

Post in another thread about communication issues.

https://www.fjrforum.com/forum//index.php/topic/163928-inside-thighs-soreness/?do=findComment&comment=1240692

Another thread where communication issues are discussed.

https://www.fjrforum.com/forum//index.php/topic/163066-seth-lamm-russell-day-long-corbin

3rd party comments regarding his reputation for communication issues.

https://www.fjrforum.com/forum//index.php/topic/165891-holy-crap-my-a-is-killing-me/?do=findComment&comment=1272149

All that said, I also came across quite a few people praising Seth as well, but the evidence of issues do exist.

Like I said, as with other small vendors, sometimes these things are hit or miss. I'd bet that it's likely that Seth has good weeks and bad weeks, and if you fall in the good weeks, you think he's great, and if you fall into the bad weeks, you think he's awful.

Regardless, while he has a reputation for excellent work and quality seats, he does also have a reputation problem with regard to his communication. As I stated before, communication is a small thing, but in the end it can be huge to your customers and can be what really hurts your business. If he can't figure this out, we are likely to see more threads like this one.

Again though, I'll likely still be a Laam customer this year and it's due to highly valued and respected opinion's of folks like RFH, but I'll go into it knowing what I know about what I've seen and read already from RFH and others.