Clutch issue

[Usul]

I bought my 2011 FJR brand new about a month ago...just turned over 1000 miles. I've notice some hard shifts ever since I got it and so far have just chocked it up to a new clutch. However, I notice here lately what I think is causing it. When I pull in the clutch, it takes about a half a second from fully pulled in to the transmission actually disengaging. I can really notice this when decelerating in gear and then pulling in the clutch. If I wait to shift until about a half second after the clutch is fully pulled, it shifts very smoothly. I took it to the dealer for the 600 mile service and the only thing I've done to the bike is wax and polish it to within an inch of its life. Is this just a Yamaha thing? Clutch just needs to break in more? Air in the hydraulic line? Thanks for any input.

 

[03HiYoSilver]

Is this just a Yamaha thing? -NO

Did you mention this to your Dealer while it was in for service? and is it on paper?

If not and you feel this is a problem, document this Problem with Yamaha Customer Service in Cypress California.

Also to help ease your mind, find a local FJR rider look at it and see if this is normal or not.

 

[Bokerfork]

It's normal only from the standpoint that a lot of FJR's that sat on dealer showrooms for months without being run have had this problem.

The cure for most is to have the dealer remove the clutch plates and soak them overnight in oil.

The cure for my '07 was a complete clutch plate replacement.

Under warranty of course.

There is plenty of info about this on the forum if you look around. If the dealer gives you any trouble, gather up the forum evidence and hit him with it.

Don't delay. This is going to get worse before it gets better and is not only annoying, but a serious safety issue also.

Mark

 

[ionbeam]

...If the dealer gives you any trouble, gather up the forum evidence and hit him with it....

Unfortunately that may be the fastest way to alienate a dealer. In most people's experience dealers just flip out if you tell them you read or heard something on the internet. Dealers seem to feel that everything you see and read on the internet is pure 100% BS and they are not at all receptive to any idea that is internet related. While you and I recognize that this Forum has a lot of good and accurate technical information the dealer does not know this and will disregard this Forum just like any other internet site.

 

[Checkswrecks]

Sounds wrong, so come on down to Damascus.

Seriously, here are a couple of thoughts.

First, what are you used to? The FJR does have a hard clutch to pull, so are you sure it's not your perception and incoming habits?

Second, how high is your idle speed? Since you mention it not just happening at idle, I doubt this is the problem, but it's the easiest to address. If the idle is too fast, the clutch plates will drag and be hard to separate.

My other thought goes back to a number of 2007-2008 Gen2 FJRs that had this problem. A number of the affected bikes were ones that had sat for periods of time. I don't think we ever figured out the true cause, but the cure was to simply take the clutch plates out, wash them off, and re-install. It cost a gasket, oil, and some time. btw to the guys buying used 2007-2008 bikes, don't worry, this was a one time deal and is ancient history now

Bob

 

[Donal]

Detailed clutch soak procedure by mcatrophy here

Don

 

[azitlies]

From what I've read here, and my own personal experience... this seems to be a kind of FJR specific problem.

Recently did my clutch plate soak following mcatrophy's link above. And I was no where near experiencing the problems you describe, but decided to do it anyway. Only 2 of the 12 (lost count) or so friction plates had oil on them, the outside 2. All the others were dry.

If you do enough research you may come across one member that actually had the gear dogs bend, due to the hard shifting. When that happens you have big problems, as the bike will pop out of gear on hard acceleration. And the only fix is to take the transmission apart and replace them (that's what the person did too... more nerve then I have!).

So I'd suggest strongly you do the clutch plate soak... now.

 

[Usul]

Thanks to everyone for the quick replies. This is really a great forum. Let me just say in the 1000 miles I've ridden so far, I haven't thought too much about it other than the shifting is not so smooth. It really just concerned me lately when I noticed during deceleration...then pulling the clutch all the way in, that there was the delay I described. Anyway, from what I've heard here, I should contact my dealer so I just sent him an email to see what he thinks about it. I'll let you know what he says. Thanks again for your input.

 

[Donal]

From what I've read here, and my own personal experience... this seems to be a kind of FJR specific problem.

Recently did my clutch plate soak following mcatrophy's link above. And I was no where near experiencing the problems you describe, but decided to do it anyway. Only 2 of the 12 (lost count) or so friction plates had oil on them, the outside 2. All the others were dry.

If you do enough research you may come across one member that actually had the gear dogs bend, due to the hard shifting. When that happens you have big problems, as the bike will pop out of gear on hard acceleration. And the only fix is to take the transmission apart and replace them (that's what the person did too... more nerve then I have!).

So I'd suggest strongly you do the clutch plate soak... now.

It would be very interesting for someone who has already done a clutch soak to open up again after a reasonable period of use and check to see if the plates have remained wet or..........

Don

 

[azitlies]

It would be very interesting for someone who has already done a clutch soak to open up again after a reasonable period of use and check to see if the plates have remained wet or..........

Don

Believe we are thinking the same thing here... have read where others have made more or less the same comment. Maybe it needs to be a yearly thing? Or we could just wait for it to be redesigned? :sleepysmiley03:

 

[Donal]

Interesting! I thought I had already posted this but.....

Question for anyone who has already carried out a clutch soak. With the bike on the side-stand, does the static oil level come up to the clutch plates?

If it does, it might be worth starting the bike with the clutch lever held in (occasionally). This could get some oil between the plates before the level drops to the normal operating point

 

[azitlies]

Interesting! I thought I had already posted this but.....

Question for anyone who has already carried out a clutch soak. With the bike on the side-stand, does the static oil level come up to the clutch plates?

If it does, it might be worth starting the bike with the clutch lever held in (occasionally). This could get some oil between the plates before the level drops to the normal operating point

Not with it on the side stand. Actually, the directions that have been written up indicate no need to drain the oil if one does the clutch soak with the bike on the side stand. And my experience indicates that to be true also.

Guessing here, but because mine (and others have reported the same) had oil on the outside plates, then oil *must* be getting to them, one would probably safely assume it's a pretty nominal design though.

It does seem *possible* anyway, that once a clutch plate soak is done, that what nominal oil does get there *could* keep the plates in oil...

I'd still encourage people to do this. It seems to be an idiosyncrasy with the fjr. It's honestly not that hard to do, nerve racking at first, of course. Went for a ride yesterday (about a month after), clutch is still acting great...

 

[Checkswrecks]

Those of us who needed it can tell you that there is no substitute for the procedure. At the same time, don't think at I've ever heard of anybody needing to do it more than once. It's not just that there is no oil, they get a sticky congealed goo in there.

Now that I wrote that, 15 people will speak up but that's my story and ....

 

[Vamirr]

...

Now that I wrote that, 15 people will speak up but that's my story and ....

I guess I'll start.

I've had the worst luck with my 08's clutch. I've done the procedure about four times now (within about a two year time), each time all but two plates are dry, no goo, just bone dry.

My advice would be to definitely take it in. My 08's had clutch issues its whole life and is now popping out of 2nd gear on high acceleration. I'm not thinking it's coincidence. Nor should you, take it in.

 

[Fred W]

The FJR's clutch is not low enough in the crankcase to actually be bathed in oil. It does get oil spray on it, after all it is inside the crankcase, so it is still considered a wet clutch. As stated, the clutch soak is really just a clutch cleaning and unsticking. Once they are unstuck you should be good to go.

Based on the OP's original symptom of a "time delay" to dis-engagement, I would doubt that this has anything to do with stuck plates. Stuck plates will not magically unstick and then restick. I would be looking at some part of the hydraulic operation system as the culprit.

The very first thing to try is adjusting the levers to the position that puts them farthest away from the bars. Even though that may not be the most comfortable (for those with small hands) it gives the master cylinder the longest piston stroke, and so will generate the fullest possible disengagement of the clutch. The second gen clutch system was redesigned to make it compatible with the YCCS. There were several 2nd gen owners that could never get complete clutch disengagement unless they adjusted the levers way out.

If that doesn't help, then definitely do try a complete bleeding of the hydraulic system, as any air in the lines can reduce the slave cylinder motion too.

 

[mcatrophy]

...

Based on the OP's original symptom of a "time delay" to dis-engagement, I would doubt that this has anything to do with stuck plates.

...

If that doesn't help, then definitely do try a complete bleeding of the hydraulic system, as any air in the lines can reduce the slave cylinder motion too.

The "time delay" is one of the symptoms I had on my '06 AS(AE). it seems to hesitate to release, which with the YCC-S makes for a very lurchy (if that's a word) change, and it wouldn't disengage at the proper RPM when coming to rest. Unsticking takes time

.

Wouldn't air affect the engagement point rather than the time to engage/disengage? I don't know from personal experience, I've never had a levered hydraulic clutch.

[Edit] Having re-read the OP's description, if it takes time for the air to compress that could explain the symptoms. He also doesn't complain of any juddering. So perhaps bleeding is the key. [/edit]

 

[Usul]

It's been raining so freaking much here in the northeast, you would think it was the northwest. Anyway, I was able to take the bike out today for a few miles. What I've noticed is that upshifting at lower RPM's (2500 to 3500) is somewhat hard but I've heard other riders on this forum say the same thing at those RPMs. Upshifting in the higher RPM's (4000 to 6000) is butter smooth. If this low RPM upshifting was the only thing I noticed I wouldn't even have posted. It was the downshifting that caused me to "notice" something strange - and really only if I tried to do a quick downshift. Most of the time when I downshift, I'm slowing down anyway so I might delay with the push of my boot anyway and not notice it. I emailed my dealer and he said it was "common" with the FJR "when there is slight pressure on the tranny when downshifting".

So...in pulling together what I might or might not do about this according to all input, I consider this minor and will just give it some time to see if things change over the next few thousand miles. I set my clutch to the "full out" adjustment so I'll see what that does. I will probably change the oil to a 10w or 15w full synthetic. I'm not sure what the dealer put in at the 600 mile service and winter is coming so I figure that's a few bucks that can't hurt anything and I'll know what's in it. Also, maybe it will change something for this issue. Depending on how things go, I might bleed the clutch next and then finally do a clutch soak as a final resort.

Again, thanks all for your input.

 

[Usul]

Just an update on this issue. I changed the oil at 1000 miles to Valvoline 4T Synthetic 10w40 (not trying to start and oil thread). I've now got 2000 miles on it and the issue seems to be much better, especially when it gets up to temperature. As a matter of fact, the whole driveline seems quite a bit smoother. Not sure if it's the synthetic oil or just putting some miles on the bike or maybe both.

 

[HawkWing]

Some have suggested adding STP oil treatment (2 or more oz to the 4+ quarts of oil) as a means of smoothing shifting. I have recently cleaned and soaked clutch plates (they were dry) and changed oil (to Rotella T6 synthetic). Clutch "drag" has disappeared, and shifting seems to improve with time- I only recently made these changes. This has smoothed the "clunking" considerably, but my '08 still does not downshift as smoothly as I think it should. Will be adding the STP as a next remedy. Mine has 30,000 miles on it, and has always "clunked", especially downshifting. Shift technique can greatly improve smoothness. Upshifting, I find the clunk can mostly be avoided by applying some pressure on the foot shifter and releasing the throttle before disengaging the clutch. As torque on the clutch plates (and drive train in general) lessens from throttle release, you will find that the shifter will more easily mesh into the next (higher) gear. When done well, you barely need to disengage the clutch. The quicker the process, the smoother the shift. As for downshifting, I have resorted to the owner's manual recommendation:

5th - - - - - 4th @ 15.5 mph

4th - - - - - 3rd @ 15.5 mph

3rd - - - - - 2nd @ 15.5 mph

2nd - - - - - 1st @ 15.5 mph (with clunk)

In other words, don't downshift until you're at a crawl. Yeah, it sucks, but you can at least avoid the dreaded :angry: clunk. Forget engine braking with this method. You CAN downshift smoothly at speed; again, there must be very little torque in the drivetrain to do this smoothly, at least on my '08. This is a bit trickier than smoothly upshifting. Works much more smoothly when downshifting to INCREASE speed rather than to decrease speed (engine braking).

One more thing: I observed a slight darkening of the clutch plate linings after they had soaked overnight, indicating to me that they actually did soak up some lubricant. This did not occur until they had soaked overnight- I checked 'em after several hours and noticed no change in color. If you're gonna soak 'em, do it overnight.

Of course, with your "sleepy" clutch, you ain't gonna be doin' no fancypants speedshifting. :assassin: