Clutch questions after demo ride

[dbx]

DBX, I understand your thinking, and I'd agree if we were talking about cars not bikes. I've driven stick cars all my life. When they came out with the new paddle shifter automatics and "click" shifter automatic sticks, I thought for the first time I could live with an automatic. I feel safer driving a stick because in a car, I like the extra mili-second of response time I get when I take my foot off the gas and the manual trans instantly applies engine braking while I'm transferring my foot to the brake pedal, where an automatic just coasts. And there's no way I'm going to achieve spirited driving in mountain twisties with an automatic and no engine braking. But the new 5 and 6 (and 7) speed automatics make it both possible and practical to use an automatic as if it were a stick. Only problem for me is they only offer them on the high-end cars. If I could get a basic Mazda 3 with a 6 speed paddle-shifter, I get one tomorrow.

First, that millisecond you're talking about while your foot is coming off the gas and moving to the brake isn't materially different between a manual and automatic, but none of that applies here anyway because the AE is not an automatic. It's a manual. Engine braking is alive and well.

But a bike is a different animal, I think we'd all agree. I can't imagine being in a tricky, low-speed situation on a bike, like a tight parking lot, or a quick u-turn on a 2-lane road, or a gravel turn-around, and not being able to feather the clutch. Sounds like a blueprint for disaster. Just can't picture an automatic bike being able to handle such stuff very confidently or elegantly. Maybe if you could give it some throttle while dragging the rear brake you could accomplish a similar sort of control, but wouldn't that just stall the AE FJR?

I never learned to abuse feather my clutch in low speed situations. To me, the clutch is used to get the vehicle moving and sometimes to help a gear shift be more smooth, but I never got in the habit of slipping it in low speed maneuvers. I would always leave the clutch fully engaged and use the throttle and brake. So for me, transitioning to the AE was effortless, and I can tell you that none of the concerns you just listed are valid. If you can ride a bike with a manual clutch, you can ride a bike with an automatic clutch.

Oh, and you called the AE an automatic. It's a manual. Only the clutch is automatic. The rest of the tranny is not.

RE: the clutch lever on the Gen II's, I swapped out the clutch slave on my Gen II for a Gen I, to get a little less effort on the pull. As has been reported, that combo does, in fact, move the engagement point to the extreme end of the lever throw. I have to use the lever setting at 1 click from the furthest setting, and EVEN THEN, I have to pull the lever all the way to the bar to get into 1st gear. That, combined with the still high pull effort, means that for me, there no such thing as 2-fingered shifting. One of my biggest negatives for the FJR.

Hmm, in that case, if it were me I'd switch back to the stock parts. It sounds like you took a step backwards.

 

[Spook]

... but wouldn't that just stall the AE FJR?...

It is IMPOSSIBLE to stall the AE FJR. Can't be done. Not no-how. Never. (So long as everything is healthy.)

True dat. But they can be dropped in low speed non-maneuvers. Or so I hear from the AE crowd...

so can a normal clutched bike. Low speed is all about finesse.

 

[Flybum]

Love my 08AE. It's effortless in traffic, smooth shifting, and will stand up in a heart beat. Ride it every day commuting 15 miles one way. I have taken it through the MSF Experienced Rider Course and the Military Sportbike Rider Course with out any issues in the slow speed maneuvers required for those classes. Just ride the rear brake a bit. But,......you can't rev the engine (using it like a gyro for stability) while stopped like THESE GUYS. Won't get rid of my AE, too much fun to ride. Will have to get another clutch bike just for some good old fashioned clutching tom-foolery.

 

[kleake]

It is IMPOSSIBLE to stall the AE FJR. Can't be done. Not no-how. Never. (So long as everything is healthy.)

Not completely true, but for the most part yes.... It is super sloppy mud getting into my garage due to the previous snow. As I am pulling up to my board that covers the worst of the mud, I was spinning the tire just off idle to get there. As soon as I was up on the board, and it grabbed traction it killed it before the clutch could let go. It would have killed it had it been a manual clutch as well because I was so light on the throttle and it grabbed almost instantly.

I really wanted the manual clutch, but due to the clearance of the 08AE being sooo much less than an 09A, i went for it. Haven't got to ride but one day due to the weather, but I can see several advantages to the AE,,, and the only drawback i have is 1.getting used to it, and 2.when you are fairly heavy on the throttle when you shift, there is a slight hesitation once the shift is completed. I "think" this is due to the computer re-engaging the clutch slowly so as not to lift the front wheel, and 2, the computer has tweaked the ignition to ease the shift and I think it could re-engage a little faster. But after all,,, this is a sport-touring bike, not a race bike. In all normal practicle applications, I don't see any issue with the AE that I was initially concerned about. We'll see after I get a few more miles on her...

 

[dbx]

I really wanted the manual clutch, but due to the clearance of the 08AE being sooo much less than an 09A, i went for it. Haven't got to ride but one day due to the weather, but I can see several advantages to the AE,,, and the only drawback i have is 1.getting used to it, and 2.when you are fairly heavy on the throttle when you shift, there is a slight hesitation once the shift is completed. I "think" this is due to the computer re-engaging the clutch slowly so as not to lift the front wheel, and 2, the computer has tweaked the ignition to ease the shift and I think it could re-engage a little faster. But after all,,, this is a sport-touring bike, not a race bike. In all normal practicle applications, I don't see any issue with the AE that I was initially concerned about. We'll see after I get a few more miles on her...

You can make the shifts crisper by twitching the throttle, almost exactly like you'd do on a manual clutch bike if you were shifting without using the clutch. The clutch will engage a lot faster on heavy throttle shifts, greatly reducing the slippage.

 

[mcatrophy]

It is IMPOSSIBLE to stall the AE FJR. Can't be done. Not no-how. Never. (So long as everything is healthy.)

Not completely true, but for the most part yes.... It is super sloppy mud getting into my garage due to the previous snow. As I am pulling up to my board that covers the worst of the mud, I was spinning the tire just off idle to get there. As soon as I was up on the board, and it grabbed traction it killed it before the clutch could let go. It would have killed it had it been a manual clutch as well because I was so light on the throttle and it grabbed almost instantly.

I really wanted the manual clutch, but due to the clearance of the 08AE being sooo much less than an 09A, i went for it. Haven't got to ride but one day due to the weather, but I can see several advantages to the AE,,, and the only drawback i have is 1.getting used to it, and 2.when you are fairly heavy on the throttle when you shift, there is a slight hesitation once the shift is completed. I "think" this is due to the computer re-engaging the clutch slowly so as not to lift the front wheel, and 2, the computer has tweaked the ignition to ease the shift and I think it could re-engage a little faster. But after all,,, this is a sport-touring bike, not a race bike. In all normal practicle applications, I don't see any issue with the AE that I was initially concerned about. We'll see after I get a few more miles on her...

Congratulations! You've found the only way to stall an AE! I really didn't think you could, but what you describe makes sense. If slipping the rear wheel in mud make sense .

As for gear changes, dbx is exactly right. As you flick the paddle to change up, momentarily dip the throttle a little to unload the gearbox and prevent the engine racing as the gearchange occurs. Similarly, if you're slowing with a closed throttle, blip it open a little as you change down. With a bit of practice you can get a fast and smooth change.

 

[kleake]

It is IMPOSSIBLE to stall the AE FJR. Can't be done. Not no-how. Never. (So long as everything is healthy.)

Not completely true, but for the most part yes.... It is super sloppy mud getting into my garage due to the previous snow. As I am pulling up to my board that covers the worst of the mud, I was spinning the tire just off idle to get there. As soon as I was up on the board, and it grabbed traction it killed it before the clutch could let go. It would have killed it had it been a manual clutch as well because I was so light on the throttle and it grabbed almost instantly.

I really wanted the manual clutch, but due to the clearance of the 08AE being sooo much less than an 09A, i went for it. Haven't got to ride but one day due to the weather, but I can see several advantages to the AE,,, and the only drawback i have is 1.getting used to it, and 2.when you are fairly heavy on the throttle when you shift, there is a slight hesitation once the shift is completed. I "think" this is due to the computer re-engaging the clutch slowly so as not to lift the front wheel, and 2, the computer has tweaked the ignition to ease the shift and I think it could re-engage a little faster. But after all,,, this is a sport-touring bike, not a race bike. In all normal practicle applications, I don't see any issue with the AE that I was initially concerned about. We'll see after I get a few more miles on her...

Congratulations! You've found the only way to stall an AE! I really didn't think you could, but what you describe makes sense. If slipping the rear wheel in mud make sense .

As for gear changes, dbx is exactly right. As you flick the paddle to change up, momentarily dip the throttle a little to unload the gearbox and prevent the engine racing as the gearchange occurs. Similarly, if you're slowing with a closed throttle, blip it open a little as you change down. With a bit of practice you can get a fast and smooth change.

I haven't mastered the blip in the throttle on this bike, but since I am not new to riding can time it pretty decent. I think there is more to it than just a blip in the throttle though. When I blip it, shift, and get back on it, there is slight hesitation before full on power. It honestly feels like the ignition is limited or something for a couple hundred milliseconds to allow the gear to fully engage before returning to max power. Again, not a big deal, but a little quirk I have noticed. I do know the timing and ignition is interupted momentary to make the shift even under light throttle because those light throttle shifts are butter smooth

 

[mcatrophy]

...When I blip it, shift, and get back on it, there is slight hesitation before full on power.

...

You don't "dip it, shift, and get back on it", [i don't use the word "blip" for a "dip"], you give the throttle a "down-up" as you flip the paddle. As quickly as you can move your hand. Then you get the silky smooth no hang-up changes.

 

[kleake]

That's not quite how I meant to say it.... To make it simple, i understand the dip/blip thing. If you have a regular clutch on a bike, and you shift without the clutch you give the throttle a little dip at the same time as the shift. I've done this for years, and my KLR actually shifts perfect doing this on a regular basis. My issue is after the blip/dip & shift, there is a hesitation in the engine as if the computer is waiting to make sure the shift is completed. It's not a complete hesitation, but if feels like for split second I am only getting 80hp instead of the 145,,, then after that split second, the full power comes back on. you only feel it when getting on it hard and making the shift. During a light throttle shift, the ignition works the same, but since you aren't under heavy throttle, it makes the shift perfect. Does that make more sense?

 

[mcatrophy]

That's not quite how I meant to say it.... To make it simple, i understand the dip/blip thing. If you have a regular clutch on a bike, and you shift without the clutch you give the throttle a little dip at the same time as the shift. I've done this for years, and my KLR actually shifts perfect doing this on a regular basis. My issue is after the blip/dip & shift, there is a hesitation in the engine as if the computer is waiting to make sure the shift is completed. It's not a complete hesitation, but if feels like for split second I am only getting 80hp instead of the 145,,, then after that split second, the full power comes back on. you only feel it when getting on it hard and making the shift. During a light throttle shift, the ignition works the same, but since you aren't under heavy throttle, it makes the shift perfect. Does that make more sense?

On my 2006, the engine power is only reduced if the revs for the new gear are are significantly wrong. You can feel the clutch slipping, the engine speed lowering until full engagement, and yes, during this time (maybe a second or two) the power is significantly reduced. I believe Yamaha have altered the MCU software for 2008 (not sure of my facts here), but I wouldn't think that's the cause of your issue.

Might your clutch needs the clean and oil soak treatment? Could be that it's reluctant to disengage, this could lead to a less-than-perfect gear change. A symptom of this would be a reluctance to disengage as you slow to a stop. Which might lead to the engine stalling in an extreme case????

 

[kleake]

What you describe as reduced power sounds like what happens during a heavy throttle shift. Don't get me wrong, it's not a problem, just something I would think could be a little quicker,,,,, but considering the bike is brand new, it may be the clutch still slipping just a tad, so the computer is reducing power until it is locked in hard.

The clutch is releasing fine, and I don't have any issues with it. The engine stall was an extreme case of going from the wheel spinning in mud at probably 10mph or so, to a sudden stop so fast that the computer didn't release it fast enough. As quick as it grabbed, and as light on the throttle as I was,,, I seriously doubt I could have stopped it from stalling had it been a manual clutch. I don't think of this being an issue either. I was only stating the fact that it is possible to kill the engine with an auto clutch,,,,,,, even if it would never happen under normal circumstances.