Clutch Soak with SH_26

[mcatrophy]

I've also noticed there's another ring behind the one with the white dot, you can see it numbered 4 in the parts fiche drawing in my pictures.



When I did mine, I didn't take this out, hence no reference to it in my write-up. Worth checking that this wasn't disturbed in yours.

 

[Fred W]

Jeff,

Refer to the parts fische of your model year to get the order of the friction plates. It calls out different part numbers for those end plates that are unique. That and MCA's photo above should get this sorted out.

For the air bubbles when bleeding, pull off the nipple (have an assistant put a finger over the hole so you don't lose all the hydraulic fluid) and wrap the threads with a lot (what seems like too much) of Teflon plumbing tape. When you thread it back in it will help seal the threads, which is where your air bubbles are leaking in from. Just be sure to only cover the threads of the nipple with Teflon, and not the holes that provide the bleed path.

 

[FJRPittsburgh]

Reworked clutch assembly this morning. Sure enough I had the wrong black friction plate in the rear (first in) of the clutch. Now I can truely say it is right. How embarrassing. The plates all sit the width of one friction plate deeper into the clutch now due to the rear plate having a larger diameter center opening and. I was able to ride the bike around the neighborhood, but shifting is very clunky. Got to run to the auto parts store and pick up some more dot 4 fluid and bleed the clutch lines again using Fred W's method of sealing the nipple threads a little better. The bike shifts through all the gears, but will not go back into neutral unless I force the actuator arm forward to manually force it into neutral. When stopping in first gear, the bike is still pulling a little forward, so the clutch is not engaging (probably the reason it won't go into neutral). Still not sorted out, but progress is made. I closely inspected the spines on the end of the clutch assembly for damage which was my worse fear. No damage done whatsoever.

I see what I did now. When I installed the plates on the first go around, I had them in there properly. After removing them the next morning and reinstalling them, I reversed the order as I relubed each friction plate. I was so careful to be sure that each plate was seated correctly. Probably the most careful wrong installation of clutch plates in history. Man enough to admit it, but embarrassed none the less.

drdevil44,

When you did your clutch line bleed, did you pull the rear wheel and the swing arm to have access to the manual clutch operation bolt? Wouldn't using the actuator arm to engage the clutch (putting the bike in and out of gear) accomplish the same thing? Not sure. Also the service manual says to install the clutch fluid reservoir diaphram before bleeding. They don't expand upon it at all. The diaphram is in the cap that screws onto the clutch fluid reservoir. It doesn't make sense to me to put the cap on. That's not what I was doing when I bled the line yesterday.

Thanks to all,

Jeff

 

[drdevil44]

Hi Jeff

I didn't remove swingarm, neither did I replace diaphragm when bleeding. I bled it through completely several times though. I had real clunkiness before I bled it after reassembly. So you might find that fixes it.

I cant see that wrong ordering would cause any damage - but then I'm just going by memory on how it was assembled.

 

[FJRPittsburgh]

Just did the final clutch line bleed. It only took around another 6 oz of Dot 4 fluid to bleed the line with solid fluid sucked in by the mitey vac. Woo hoo! Buttoned everything back up and now for another ride. Everything is back to normal. Shifts into every gear and back into neutral from first gear. Sweet....I'm back. The clutch soak is such an easy procedure unless you run into the miriad of problems I had and mistakes I made. I'll give my evaluation later of whether or not the shifting is any smoother now than it was previously. At this point, I'm just glad it shifts. I need to get some miles on the bike first.

Fred W gave me the utmost compliment a while back by saying I wasn't a dumb *** or a **** head. Well Fred, I may not be a **** head, but I'm certainly a dumb *** when it came to the clutch soak mod on the AE. It was one of the most grueling maintenance procedures I've endured over my years of wrenching bikes. It only took me three attempts to get the plates in the clutch correctly. I guess three can be a charm, but I wouldn't recommend it. At least there was a happy ending.

Thanks for everyone's help.

Jeff

 

[mcatrophy]

Just did the final clutch line bleed. It only took around another 6 oz of Dot 4 fluid to bleed the line with solid fluid sucked in by the mitey vac. Woo hoo! Buttoned everything back up and now for another ride. Everything is back to normal. Shifts into every gear and back into neutral from first gear. Sweet....I'm back. The clutch soak is such an easy procedure unless you run into the miriad of problems I had and mistakes I made. I'll give my evaluation later of whether or not the shifting is any smoother now than it was previously. At this point, I'm just glad it shifts. I need to get some miles on the bike first.

Fred W gave me the utmost compliment a while back by saying I wasn't a dumb *** or a **** head. Well Fred, I may not be a **** head, but I'm certainly a dumb *** when it came to the clutch soak mod on the AE. It was one of the most grueling maintenance procedures I've endured over my years of wrenching bikes. It only took me three attempts to get the plates in the clutch correctly. I guess three can be a charm, but I wouldn't recommend it. At least there was a happy ending.

Thanks for everyone's help.

Jeff

Really glad you're back to normal, hope it's worthwhile!

Don't feel bad about making a mistake. If you've never made a mistake, you've never made anything.

Just a final picture to illustrate the difference between the outer plate and a "standard" one, note the larger friction pads on the outer.

 

[FJRPittsburgh]

Just did the final clutch line bleed. It only took around another 6 oz of Dot 4 fluid to bleed the line with solid fluid sucked in by the mitey vac. Woo hoo! Buttoned everything back up and now for another ride. Everything is back to normal. Shifts into every gear and back into neutral from first gear. Sweet....I'm back. The clutch soak is such an easy procedure unless you run into the miriad of problems I had and mistakes I made. I'll give my evaluation later of whether or not the shifting is any smoother now than it was previously. At this point, I'm just glad it shifts. I need to get some miles on the bike first.

Fred W gave me the utmost compliment a while back by saying I wasn't a dumb *** or a **** head. Well Fred, I may not be a **** head, but I'm certainly a dumb *** when it came to the clutch soak mod on the AE. It was one of the most grueling maintenance procedures I've endured over my years of wrenching bikes. It only took me three attempts to get the plates in the clutch correctly. I guess three can be a charm, but I wouldn't recommend it. At least there was a happy ending.

Thanks for everyone's help.

Jeff

Really glad you're back to normal, hope it's worthwhile!

Don't feel bad about making a mistake. If you've never made a mistake, you've never made anything.

Just a final picture to illustrate the difference between the outer plate and a "standard" one, note the larger friction pads on the outer.

MCA,

It isn't the difference in the 2 black friction plates versus all the others that got me, it is the obvious difference in the size of the inside diameter of one black plate versus the other. The black plate with the wider center opening goes in first. Even though it's obvious looking at all the clutch plates laid out in one of your pics, I never noticed that the black clutch plate at the bottom of your pic is so obviously different than the one in the top of the pic. The pic I mean is the one where you have all of the removed plates laid out on newspaper. Thanks again for all of your input and for taking the time to document your work on the clutch soak.

Great work!

Jeff

 

[dcarver]

Jeff, I fully appreciate your brutal honesty, for 'fessing up. I wish more peeps were like you when reporting back on 'issues' with the bike.

Best to you and Congrats!

 

[mcatrophy]

...

MCA,

It isn't the difference in the 2 black friction plates versus all the others that got me, it is the obvious difference in the size of the inside diameter of one black plate versus the other. The black plate with the wider center opening goes in first. Even though it's obvious looking at all the clutch plates laid out in one of your pics, I never noticed that the black clutch plate at the bottom of your pic is so obviously different than the one in the top of the pic. The pic I mean is the one where you have all of the removed plates laid out on newspaper. Thanks again for all of your input and for taking the time to document your work on the clutch soak.

Great work!

Jeff

Understand about the differences, I just thought I'd point out the less obvious (sorry to rub it in

) difference between the outer and the "normal" plates in case someone else in trouble trawls this topic.

Incidentally, I have the feeling both the end friction plates in my newspaper picture are dark because they're the only ones that are oily.

Once again, I'm glad all is back to working, and pleased to be of some help.

 

[FJRPittsburgh]

Jeff, I fully appreciate your brutal honesty, for 'fessing up. I wish more peeps were like you when reporting back on 'issues' with the bike.

Best to you and Congrats!

Thank you. Honesty is the best policy sometimes.

 

[FJRPittsburgh]

I took the bike out for a 2 hour run in the twisties of Southwestern PA. The bike ran flawlessly and and shifted flawlessly. The whole reason for me wanting to do the clutch soak was I was starting to notice a slight delay in banging into the gears. It used to be a quick snap into each gear and it began to be a delayed shift even though it was still acceptable. The bike shifts good as new now if not better.

I purchased the bike in 2009. It was a leftover 2008 model which was still in a crate from the previous year. So I've had the bike for 3 years even though it is 4 years old.

My Observations and Suggestions for Performing the Clutch Soak on an AE Model:

I'm going to have to disagree somewhat with drdevil44 even though I understand where he is coming from, especially after all my trials and errors. He feels that it should not be recommended to do a clutch soak on an AE model. The first thing to consider is the the service manual states that the clutch friction plates should have oil. With an AE model, you have to be aware that after you do the clutch soak, you may have to perform a clutch line bleed along with it. Some members of this group have done their clutch soak and the bike went on to perform perfectly with no extra maintenance. mcatrophy had an SH_26 error and went back in to recheck his clutch assembly and then was fine after that. drdevil44 did the soak and got the SH_26 error and battled the bike to start it and spend 90 minutes shifting and restarting and fighting the bike to shift properly only to find out he had to do a clutch line bleed to solve the issue. My experience was much like drdevil44's except it took me three tries to assemble the clutch correctly in addition to all the problems and resolutions he had. He was very helpful in resolving my issues. I can't thank him enough. Also, without the wonderful documentation from mcatropy and his extra help, I never would have even performed the operation. Thanks mcatrophy!

Bottom line is the clutch friction plates should get oil if you are experiencing some delay in the act of shifting. If you have an AE model, you will most likely get an SH_26 error on the dash and the bike won't start after reassembling the clutch. Put the bike on the centerstand. Turn the key on and wait for the fuel pump to fire up and the error to display on the LCD screen. While holding in the right grip brake lever and the starter button, turn the key off and on very quickly. The bike will start. Try to operate the shifter while on the centerstand so in case the bike wants to lunge forward in gear that you are protected by keeping the back wheel off of the ground. If there are shifting and stalling problems from the get go in addition to many different SH_XX errors as in my case and drdevil44's case, do a clutch line bleed immediately.

The service manual states the proper way to do the clutch bleed and it's a PITA. Rear wheel removal and swing arm removal...not necessary. As discovered by drdevil44, and confirmed by me, simply hook up the mitey vac to the clutch line bleed valve. Open the reservoir on the left side of the bike in front of the left side case and behind the left side cover and fill it with dot 4 fluid. Have someone there to work with you to pour more fluid in the reservoir as you are sucking it out of the bleed valve. If you allow the reservoir to empty as you are bleeding the line, you will suck air into the lines and have to start all over again. Go slowly with the mitey vac as the fluid is pulled out quickly if you have good suction. This line bleed solved my shifting problems and drdevil44's shifting problems immediately.

FredW suggested I unscrew the nipple on the bleed valve and put a few wraps of plumbers teflon tape on the threads of the nipple without covering the holes of the bleed valve. I was actually able to unscrew the nipple without any fluid escaping (not sure why, YMMV) to do the wrap and screw it back on the line. This of course stops air from being pulled up through the threads and lose suction on the mitey vac and line. Worked like a charm. I replaced 6 to 8oz in a few minutes and the fluid was coming through the line to the mitey vac nice and solid in the line. I tightened up nipple nut (manual called it a bleed screw) and removed the bleed pump. Immediately, everything worked perfectly on the bike. I could shift into all the gears and back to neutral in a snap. No errors on the dash LCD screen. The bike wouldn't go into neutral at all before the bleed unless I manually moved (forced) the actuator arm forward. Bottom line, any shifting problems on the AE equals a clutch line bleed immediately which is simple to do.

Nobody knows why different AE models have different immediate results after the clutch assembly. However it is nice to know what to do no matter what the outcome. I'm pleased with the results and have noticed a snappier shift with the trigger shifter (like it was new again). Probably some reward from the oiled clutch plates and some reward from the freshly bled auto clutch line. Would I do it again if my shifter started to show some type of lag? Absolutely! (Only I wouldn't screw up so much next time)

Jeff

 

[drdevil44]

Glad you got it sorted Jeff! My feeling is that the problems are caused by two things, first the oil on the plates causes excessive stickiness and the computer likely uses a PID control algorithm causing it to oscillate (in my case); also, I suspect removing the clutch etc displaces some air bubbles in the hydraulics making it more symptomatic. My reason for not recommending the soak on the AE is because I think the rough shifting is caused by air in the first place, and not dry plates. Given that we've both had to do a bleed - it's difficult to pin any improvement on the soak as opposed to the bleed. Also, Yamaha's service manual seems to suggest as much recommending bleeding [indeed repeated bleeding] for any problems with the clutch operation. Furthermore, I think the difficult shifting is caused by the clutch not fully disengaging, which would be caused by air in the system.

I will add finally though (to play my own devil's advocate), that my plates were indeed dry - and I'm aware it's a wet clutch. I think the only way to isolate this definitely is to get a series of people to try the bleed first before doing a soak and see if it resolves the problem first.

 

[Fred W]

Not having an AE... I don't see how you would get air in the lines, necessitating a line bleed, by doing the clutch soak.

Or is it that you allow the slave to be pushed back into a neutral position when you do the post soak line bleed? That might be what's happening.

 

[drdevil44]

Im just guessing - I didn't mean air getting in the system, but getting displaced to a location where it is more troublesome.

The clutch should auto adjust as it is sprung.

 

[Fred W]

Im just guessing - I didn't mean air getting in the system, but getting displaced to a location where it is more troublesome.

The clutch should auto adjust as it is sprung.

If so, then maybe all one has to do is crack open the bleed screw and relieve the pressure with the clutch at rest, fully engaged, just so long as that doesn't admit any air into the line?

 

[gixxerjasen]

I think the only way to isolate this definitely is to get a series of people to try the bleed first before doing a soak and see if it resolves the problem first.

To be truly scientific you'd also need folks to do a soak without a bleed and see if there's improvement as well. Of course we already have those results so some folks need to try your way too now.
That said, when I did my soak I was attempting to solve an issue that was not related to what FJRPittsburgh was experiencing. Mine was playing the herky jerky when slipping the clutch going into first from a stop. Something you'd definitely expect from dry clutch plates. Adding on to the fact that mine had been sitting in a storage shed at a car dealer for unknown amount of time it was kind of to be expected that the plates would be dry...and they were when I opened it up. On reassembly I had no errors, the clutch and transmission worked as expected and the herky jerky was gone.

Of course though, I do have on my to do list to do a clutch bleed here soon as well...you know, just because.

FJRPittsburgh, man I feel you on this one. I was actually surprised at how smoothly my clutch soak went because these threads are usually started by me instead of someone else. While I had much anticipation and nervousness for you through all of this, I can honestly say that it's nice to be on this side of the monitor for a change. I did throw up my arms and do a little victory dance for you though when I saw you got it solved and was working better than new. You know, this one -> :yahoo:

 

[drdevil44]

To be truly scientific you'd also need folks to do a soak without a bleed and see if there's improvement as well. Of course we already have those results so some folks need to try your way too now.

And randomise the bikes and blindfold the riders Not sure that'd be too popular.

 

[FJRPittsburgh]

I guess the true test would be not to touch the clutch plates at all when we have sluggish shifting on the AE model. Simply do a clutch line bleed and see if the shifting becomes snappy again. It still bothers me that the manual says the friction plates get oil. When my shifting becomes sloppy again, I'll probably oil the plates and do a clutch line bleed as I'm a glutton for punishment. :grin:

You know, when I did the plate reinstallation each time, I never moved a rod or anything. It seems peculiar that you would have to bleed the clutch line after that. Very strange. I'm just curious about the folks who did a clutch soak on an AE model with no need for clutch line bleed. Did they do anything differently? That's the real issue here. If everyone who did the clutch soak on an AE had the same experience as drdevil44 (and myself), then I would agree 100% with not doing a clutch soak as drdevil44 puts forth.

 

[FJRPittsburgh]

I think the only way to isolate this definitely is to get a series of people to try the bleed first before doing a soak and see if it resolves the problem first.

To be truly scientific you'd also need folks to do a soak without a bleed and see if there's improvement as well. Of course we already have those results so some folks need to try your way too now.
That said, when I did my soak I was attempting to solve an issue that was not related to what FJRPittsburgh was experiencing. Mine was playing the herky jerky when slipping the clutch going into first from a stop. Something you'd definitely expect from dry clutch plates. Adding on to the fact that mine had been sitting in a storage shed at a car dealer for unknown amount of time it was kind of to be expected that the plates would be dry...and they were when I opened it up. On reassembly I had no errors, the clutch and transmission worked as expected and the herky jerky was gone.

Of course though, I do have on my to do list to do a clutch bleed here soon as well...you know, just because.

FJRPittsburgh, man I feel you on this one. I was actually surprised at how smoothly my clutch soak went because these threads are usually started by me instead of someone else. While I had much anticipation and nervousness for you through all of this, I can honestly say that it's nice to be on this side of the monitor for a change. I did throw up my arms and do a little victory dance for you though when I saw you got it solved and was working better than new. You know, this one -> :yahoo:

Thanks for the kind words and your input to this thread. I'm glad the clutch soak cleared up your problem, but at the same time I'm jealous that you could fire it up and ride it afterwards without a clutch line bleed. Some people just live right.

 

[gixxerjasen]

Again though, it sounds like we were trying to solve different issues. You had sluggish shifting, I had herky jerky starts. It's entirely possible that the sluggish shifting is solved with the bleed and the herky jerky stuff is solved with a soak, in fact it all makes perfect sense to me that these would work.

I'm wondering if perhaps you went after the incorrect source of your issues...and your clutch really needed bleeding instead of a soak. But you did the soak, and something there made your issues worse, then you made your issues worse and then you got it all worked out. I think it's perfectly plausible that had you never cracked open your clutch and instead just done the bleed that you could have possibly solved your issues. Is it perhaps bad that you did the soak? Probably not, if you discount the issues you had of course. The end game is what matters and you've ensured that your plates are all well oiled...for now.

As for being able to fire it up and ride...well, like I said, I was pretty surprised at that one. It's pretty rare for me to delve into something mechanical and not find I'm missing a part, needing a tool I don't have or just breaking something in general. I can now I think count on two fingers the number of times this has happened to me. Maybe I'm getting better at this stuff, but I think I just got lucky.

In the end, look on the bright side, you took your clutch apart three times and didn't drop anything down that hole. Good Lord, I had to crack open the bottle of pepto to read that thread every time it came to the top, and it wasn't even my own bike! I have enough experience in these things to feel true empathy for folks dealing with these kinds of problems.