Cold Start Fast Idle Follow Up with resolution

[GalaxyBlue]

I wonder if Ethanol has anything to do with that corrosion. :dntknw:

 

[JamesK]

Here's your pictures if I remember how it's done.

FJRay, I was wondering if you could post some close ups of the plugs? I am wondering if any clues can be found based on the carbon build up on the plugs, I know these are generally in the motor for a shorter period of time, but still... For example I typically swap my Ir plugs at around 30k miles, even though they still appear to work fine. Mine are never fouled up or show any sign of carbon build up or corrosion...

 

[RossKean]

That is awesomely ugly. I would love to know the root cause of this. I can't tell from the pictures but it looks like a combination of carbon and corrosion. We have an engine that was killed due to crap buildup rather than wear. I wonder whether there was antifreeze getting into the engine via a bad head gasket, poorly torqued head or a crack in the block? (Chemical analysis of the deposits could be interesting) Did the corrosion happen after teardown or did it look that bad once it was opened up? Are the valves, seats, rings etc damaged or might it be a matter of cleanup and re-assembly? Let us know how it goes.

I will be very interested in seeing the photos of the inside of dcarver's engine!

Ross

 

[ionbeam]

At 38k miles the innards of my FJR looked as bad or worse than that. My valves were starting to show build-up on the stems too. My engine was not a ticker, it was a grenade due to the CCT failing.

It is believed that the root cause of tickers were stem seals that were too tight which starved the valve guides of lubrication. This should have kept excess oil leakage out of the combustion chamber until the seals failed. The apparent fix was to put in slightly looser stem seals and increase guide lubrication. This should come with a trace more oil consumption between changes and more oil in the combustion chamber. Since there hasn't been more tickers after the stem seal specification change in mid '05 it would seem to prove the seals as the root cause. I wonder if the tiny bit more oil plays a role in the looks of the pistons and cylinder head. It sure makes a case for Ring Free, Seafoam or other top engine cleaner.

 

[RossKean]

At 38k miles the innards of my FJR looked as bad or worse than that. My valves were starting to show build-up on the stems too. My engine was not a ticker, it was a grenade due to the CCT failing.

It is believed that the root cause of tickers were stem seals that were too tight which starved the valve guides of lubrication. This should have kept excess oil leakage out of the combustion chamber until the seals failed. The apparent fix was to put in slightly looser stem seals and increase guide lubrication. This should come with a trace more oil consumption between changes and more oil in the combustion chamber. Since there hasn't been more tickers after the stem seal specification change in mid '05 it would seem to prove the seals as the root cause. I wonder if the tiny bit more oil plays a role in the looks of the pistons and cylinder head. It sure makes a case for Ring Free, Seafoam or other top engine cleaner.

It would certainly be interesting to see the insides of a post '05 engine to see if there is a major difference in the quantity and nature of the deposits. We will see pics of the inside of Carvers engine pretty soon but if the failure there is a bad head gasket, it won't be a good comparison - different root cause. So, it might be that what we are seeing in the above pictures is the result of ticker that didn't happen to tick (failed valve stem seals)? Somehow, that would make me feel better than the possibility of "bad" gas, air filter blowby, wrong oil, insufficient (or wrong) additives etc. I have a GenII and I would like to think (hope) that this will not be happening to me!

 

[FJRay]

That is awesomely ugly. I would love to know the root cause of this. I can't tell from the pictures but it looks like a combination of carbon and corrosion. We have an engine that was killed due to crap buildup rather than wear. I wonder whether there was antifreeze getting into the engine via a bad head gasket, poorly torqued head or a crack in the block? (Chemical analysis of the deposits could be interesting) Did the corrosion happen after teardown or did it look that bad once it was opened up? Are the valves, seats, rings etc damaged or might it be a matter of cleanup and re-assembly? Let us know how it goes.

I will be very interested in seeing the photos of the inside of dcarver's engine!

Ross

No antifreeze,good head gskt, head torque good and no cracks and no corrosion. What you see is what was there when I tore it down last week.

I will send samples to the lab of your choice just send me the address and your credit card number.

 

[user 213]

At the time there was some speculation that the compression loss was caused by the air box not being installed properly . The carbon build up seems to be the cause and looking in the ports there is build up on the valves and I doubt it came from dirty air.

Knowing Eric i'm sure all the service was done and I don't know what was used for oil.

Late to the thread, I don't get here as often as I used to. Wow! Interesting to see the old motor torn open. Perhaps I should have flogged it more? I tended to spend a lot of time at a narrow throttle position covering ground at highway speeds rather than hooliganing around with lots of throttle input in the twisties and slower roads.

FWIW, I did the valve checks as scheduled, or pretty close, as timing allowed. That motor also had the TPS recall and three CCT replacements, (50k, 72k & 89k), and I put something like three bottles of Ring Free thru it at the end to see if it would make any difference, which it didn't seem to do at the time. It still ran well when I pulled it out, but I had been told during a ride in heavy rain that my exhaust had vapor coming out and that it had a coolant like smell, so shortly after did my engine swap, (already had the replacement engine in the garage).

I'll continue to read the rest of this interesting thread now and maybe comment more.

 

[ionbeam]

...I will send samples to the lab of your choice just send me the address and your credit card number.

I believe Ross personally knows someone that does analytical chemistry

 

[user 213]

FJRay, I was wondering if you could post some close ups of the plugs? I am wondering if any clues can be found based on the carbon build up on the plugs, I know these are generally in the motor for a shorter period of time, but still... For example I typically swap my Ir plugs at around 30k miles, even though they still appear to work fine. Mine are never fouled up or show any sign of carbon build up or corrosion...

Those plugs were fairly new, IIRC. None of my plugs every showed any signs of fouling. It's pretty hard to use the plug condition to learn anything on EFI engines unless there is a really serious issue of over fuel or oil leakage in that combustion chamber. Mine always tended to look light tan and clean.

 

[wheatonFJR]

...It still ran well when I pulled it out, but I had been told during a ride in heavy rain that my exhaust had vapor coming out and that it had a coolant like smell...

So, that may be nasty look may partly be corrosion caused by coolant then?

 

[RossKean]

...I will send samples to the lab of your choice just send me the address and your credit card number.

I believe Ross personally knows someone that does analytical chemistry

Ray

This is something I can do, if the issue isn't obvious during cleanup/repair. If mostly carbon, the answers are likely related to fuel issues. Oil would leave residues of zinc and phosphorus (in addition to carbon). "Dirt" would largely be silicon (silica) with some aluminum etc - depending on the source. Antifreeze has a chemical signature that would depend on the brand and type. Corrosion products would obviously be a function of the alloy that corroded. Aluminum casting alloys can have quite a bit of silicon and magnesium in them - again, it depends on the alloy.

I guess it would be more of an intellectual exercise - still needs to be cleaned up and repaired. If you are interested, collect some material (as much as you can) by scraping with a clean plastic implement into a clean plastic container (i.e. pill bottle). I can provide the analysis if not a definitive interpretation. PM me if you like and I can get you an address to send it.

Ross

 

[user 213]

...It still ran well when I pulled it out, but I had been told during a ride in heavy rain that my exhaust had vapor coming out and that it had a coolant like smell...

So, that may be nasty look may partly be corrosion caused by coolant then?

No, I do not believe so. Later it was discovered that all of the boots from the Throttle Bodies to the head were completely loose, and had been since the last valve check service, (~28k). It was, and is, believed that during the rain ride on new year's day when the comments were made, water was being pulled in and run thru the motor, causing the vapor and smell. It did not have those features afterwards when running in dry conditions. At the time, I was still paranoid that there was a head gasket issue developing. Ray has seen that there was not, when he pulled the head off.

What you see as corrosion is not. It's just carbon, combustion waste gunk and camera remnants that if you saw it with your own eyes would be obvious that it's oil and carbon gunk, not corrosion.

 

[JamesK]

I'll probably just stick with the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" approach for now. Will look to do a compression and leakdown test for next valve check at around 150k miles. I've always/mostly gotten around 180 miles out of the tank, because I just can't help but wring the life out of the throttle

 

[dcarver]

Going to be opening up Krzy8 this weekend. 150K, will take lots of pics.

KrZy8 will be have no carbon deposits cause I ride it like a hooligan, bounce of the redline every ride! :huh:

It would certainly be interesting to see the insides of a post '05 engine to see if there is a major difference in the quantity and nature of the deposits. We will see pics of the inside of Carvers engine pretty soon but if the failure there is a bad head gasket, it won't be a good comparison - different root cause.

For cylinders 1&2 correct. 3 & 4 are healthy and should be a good comparison.

 

[someguy]

curious as well...

keep us posted

i would be pissed if i was tearing down an engine with this kind of mileage...

and would be interested in educated opinion on ring free/seafoam and how that might have helped clean this up??

i hate addatives, but my experience in many other machines is that seafoam is good stuff...

haven't run it in the bike yet...

wonder about ethanol as well...

i feel fairly certain that ethanol has killed many of my smaller engines... but they are intermittent use engines.

looked similar to your pics when opened up...

PRI-G is a must for anything that sits for any period of time.

 

[SkooterG]

I just did near the same thing on my '05 @ 93k miles with one partially dead "hole". The cylinders still had the original cross-hatch. It now runs like I remember from "way-back-when", it will loft the front wheel at the twist of the wrist in 1st and 2nd gears...er...uhm....so I've been told....theoretically....with a professional rider on a closed course.

More info Mike! What specifically was wrong with yours?

Not good to see FJRs needing major engine surgery before 100k.

So, if you think that is bad, how about needing a top end job at 34,900 miles? I just got mine back from the shop for what was originally just a valve check. Okay, I went longer than I should have, but tight valves weren't the problem. It seems there was carbon buildup on three of the valves, holding them open and there was also carbon on the rings. The result was a complete top end job with all new valves and piston rings.

I have used nothing but Chevron gas and changed the oil and filter every 5,000 miles. No modifications have been made to intake, electronics, or exhaust. It's always garaged at night and never ridden in the rain. All of my riding is for commuting and highway trips down to L. A. Like the first post, I noticed the fuel mileage had decreased by about 5%.

In the end, I have a new top end and a lighter wallet. Not sure if I could've done anything different.

I thinks that is as ****** up as a soup sandwich. Needing a top end job at 35k miles is ridiculous and I really wonder what the root cause was. Plenty of FJRs around here with 50 - 75k miles not to mention over 100k miles that still run great. Granted, they may have carbon build up but they still run fine. Also scary to me is your use of Chevron, as I always believed their's to be a superior fuel. I wonder if your FJR is running too rich?

As for doing anything different, it sounds like Ring Free or similar should be in your future.

Why so much carbon on some of these low mile bikes?

 

[wheatonFJR]

...Why so much carbon on some of these low mile bikes?

Limp right wrist?

 

[HotRodZilla]

Would adding a small amount of diesel or some form of alcohol perform a similar cleansing function? Ideally diesel since that's available at any gas station and is cheap...

Don't do that if you still have your catalytic converters in your pipes. Even a small amount of diesel will wreak hell. I've heard very small amounts are really bad for your injectors too. For the small price of fuel addatives and cleaners, I wouldn't put any amount of diesel in my FJR. I think it will cause more problems than it will fix.

 

[SkooterG]

BTW, time for me to replenish my Ring Free. My go-to vendor for Ring Free only, Grand Prix Motorsports price went up considerably. Last order I made I got two 32 oz bottles for $76 shipped. Now they want $45 per bottle before shipping.

I don't know what they charge for shipping, but the cheapest I found currently is Yamaha Sports Plaza at $32.55 a bottle. A bottle lasts approximately 320 gallons or 65 5 gallon fill-ups. YSP are also cheap on the Yammie Shaft Drive Oil and Air Filters.

I made a parts order in December and after doing some price checking for another order last night I can tell you Yamaha did up to a 20% price increase on some parts as of January 1st. Air filters are one of those items that went up 10-20%. :angry:

 

[Unicycle52]

Just to clarify, when this valve job was just done all 8 intake valves were replaces as well as all 16 valve guide seals (updated) and related clips. Exhaust valves were cleaned and lapped in. All 16 valve seats were "very gently massaged" with a seat cutter before lapping. Cylinders looked excellent.

The leaking intake valves ALL were VERY clean and had highly polished contact areas where they contact the valve seat. The mechanic commented that you need a wear-able surface and a hardened surface to make a seal. Both surfaces were very hardened. He could possibly have "scuff/lapped" the original valves into the work hardened (82K miles) seats and breathed more life into the head but it may not have been a long term fix. For under a hundred bucks, replace the intake valves and start fresh. All the labor is in removing and re-installing the head, throttle bodies, exhaust system, radiator, coolant. We are wondering if this is in any way "ethenol" related.

All exhaust valves were seating well and just needed decarbonizing and touch up.

I did an exhaustive search on ebay and all the salvage sites I could find. I purchased a used starter for $150 only to find out the following day when the guy went to ship it that it had already been sold. I found a few others for $200 or more.

I bought a new starter for $326 from Ron Ayers. It is pretty labor intense to change the starter so I figures it wasn't worth saving a little over $100 bucks if I'd end up spending double that in labor to change out the used one down the road.

The worst part of all of these repairs was that it was two fairly pricey repairs at the same time. All in all I know the dealer swallowed a substantial amount of time the guys had into trouble shooting and diagnosing both problems which happened simultaneously so I can't complain.

ON THE PLUS SIDE:

The Friday after Thanksgiving I dented my rear rim "traveling ...ahem....a little faster than I probably should have on a badly potholed road." I was 50 miles from home with a flat and a bent rim. (The tire patch kit and portable compressor weren't going to help me with this one.) My riding buddy gave me a ride 5 miles to my brothers house on his C14 (naturally commenting to me on the intercom on that short ride that his "Connie" had just traveled the same road at the same speed without incident......we love to bust each others balls about Yammie vs Kawi whenever we can. Brother had just purchased a Gen 1 FJR a couple months earlier. I "borrowed" his rear wheel and was literally back on the road heading home on my trusty stead 1 1/2 hours later. Bought a used rim on Ebay the next day for $160 shipped and had it by Tuesday. I'll never pull that kind of luck again!!!

Bill Hamilton