DAMMIT!!! I said STAY RIGHT!!!

[jeremybhm]

No pithy response -- but, to keep the 'sermon' going: It's not so much about the brakes -- but rolling off the throttle. Keeping one, two, or three fingers on the throttle while using the front brake lever invites keeping the throttle 'on' while braking. Since you can't 'come' and 'go' at the same time it's really a bad thing to do.

Contrarily, using all four fingers of the right hand on the front brake lever 'automatically' rolls off the throttle -- what you really want to do when slowing and braking.

I offer, also, that using all four fingers of the right hand on the front brake lever provides more riders with a better ability to modulate brake performance.

ymmv :blink:

Doesn't the whole braking and rolling off the throttle simultaneously method serve a completely different purpose than the emergency stopping procedure that Jill is describing?

It's more a part of the ten steps to cornering that Lee Parks describes. The goal of applying brake and throttle at the same time, if only for a second, is to keep the suspension smooth and not make the front end dive and sacrifice cornering clearance. Sure your shedding some speed at as part of that process, but stopping isn't on the agenda(hopefully)...

Of course, if someone is pulling out in front of you, in your lane, or whatever, forget the suspension, lock it down with all 4 digits and let the ABS take over. I tend to stick with two fingers for the braking that requires finesse though.

Ten steps for reference excerpted and paraphrased from 'Total Control':

1 - reposition inside foot up on the peg so it won't scrape

2 - pre-position body to the inside of the center line of the bike

this is really un-natural feeling for me, and requires alot of effort, but also usually results in not scraping the aforementioned pegs/boots

3 - push on the outside grip to balance bike while waiting for turn-in point

4 - locate turn-in point (brief spotlight vision)

this will work whether you take the righty tighty line or a late apex line. i've practiced both methods at different points in time, and I am not startled if a vehicle comes around the turn partially in my lane or even if they are just crowding the line if I take the late apex line. I swear it just seems like I have more time to deal with it. Of course, maybe I'm just riding alot slower because I'm thinking about all these steps...

5 - look through the turn (switch back to floodlight vision)

unless the turn is a super tight hairpin, this seems to slow things down so you can deal with obstacles or other needed changes in the your line, almost Matrix speed, especially if you've kept the suspension level (or mostly level) throughout this process, you'll still have alot of maneuvering control at this point.

6 - relax the outside grip at the turn-in point

7 - push the inside grip to attain your required lean angle

8 - roll on the throttle as you release the brake keeping in mind available traction at current lean angle

9 - push the outside grip to bring the bike back up

10 - move body back to centerline of bike after bike is upright

 

[Jester]

While teaching an MSF class, I saw a young man stop with two fingers on the clutch and one finger on the front brake. He was asked to use four fingers on each, and told why.

Doesn't that make it kinda hard to do burnouts?

....in Flip Flops??
Hi Toe, I've been away too long. Kyles death has hit me hard. We rode together from Exeter up through Sequoia/Kings, down 180 to Dunlop Road and 245 to Mountain House. He led up 198 and followed down 180 and appeared to be a smart rider, not surging or riding up too close. During lunch, he shared he wanted to be an OR RN.....which is what I do. I had hoped to build a friend/kid brother/mentor relationship with this 19 year old young man. alas.

His death has spawned a vein of caution running through the younger, bullet-proof riders. We are beginning to have conversations about reserve and the diferentiation between street and track speeds. There are those of us who will keep that ember burning until the greiving is past and their speeds start climbing back toward their "crash per ride" levels. We'll then start talking it up again and verbally reintroduce the concept of mortality to the group. Trick is to not do it in a preachy or evangelistic way. That approach will turn them off like a switch. I am looking to slow some of their role models. Hobble the rabbits and the dogs will loose interest in chasing.

J

 

[Silver Penguin]

Doesn't that make it kinda hard to do burnouts?

I think the difficulty with burnouts are more connected with the fact that the guy was riding a 20yr old POS GN125. No flip flops though, he had to be seen to be wearing boots to be able to participate.

Jill

 

[Silver Penguin]

Doesn't the whole braking and rolling off the throttle simultaneously method serve a completely different purpose than the emergency stopping procedure that Jill is describing?

Perhaps I didn't make it quite clear, in what I described. This was a beginner class, which started with 'This is the clutch, this is the brake etc'. First lesson was to make the bike go, and now we had to make the bike stop. I appreciate the subtleties of the ten step process, but I've been doing this a while and don't have that white knuckle, deer-in-the-headlights look that the students do. My goal for this young man was to bring the motorcycle from 10mph to zero mph in a safe and controlled manner, using a technique that he could also apply to 20mph, 50mph etc.

Maybe, just maybe, some of the students were more advanced than I thought, and were trying the stabilizing throttle while braking? or more likely they were just in a total panic, hence the high RPM, with front brake applied and clutch in.

Jill

 

[noob]

Like pithy Jill , I too am an MSF instructor...

Although the BRC starts with the basics, the final goals (re the test) are skills that can save your life.

Lets completely examine one of them.

Emergency Braking:

Reviewing the context, this is what we have; Riding on public roads, downtown traffic, deer, busy highways, etc. So, when we say emergency braking, we're really referring to those unexpected panic stops, that don't happen often and no one wants.

But if they do happen to you, you're going to want your complete and total stopping power right now, immediately, fractions of a second can mean the difference between hard impact and light (or even no) impact.

This is why they recommend using 4 fingers... to make it a habit, instinctual. Sure, we can stop with 1 or 2 fingers. But that technique is best used for scrubbing off speed in the twisties and such, and if ever used should be the exception, not the norm.

Remember the need for an emergency stop is never known, and saying you'll use 4 when you need it is delaying your response time. That's why the MSF recommends you use it all the time, to make it a habit.

To accomplish this emergency braking, they teach you (again) to use all 4 fingers, maintain a flat wrist at speed (so that you roll off the throttle getting to the brake), and use a "delayed firm squeeze" on the front brake as the clutch comes in.

The "delayed firm squeeze" (for non ABS bikes, most still are btw), which can happen in a fraction of a second, is used to transfer weight onto the front tire (compress forks) and to flatten the tires contact patch. Once this has happened it's much more likely the front tire won't lock when you apply the firm squeeze with all 4 fingers.

Being a safety minded person (don't think I could bare a bad wreck caused by my own stupid *** mistake), I've practiced this over and over and over, every time I ride, and of course many many times in the classes I've taught. Here's some proof of the extent I've gone to:

This shows the scrapes of the extenda fenda on the cowling at the very extent of travel of the forks. Specified travel is 4.5 inches. The difference with the tape measure is sag.

I would recommend to all my fellow cyclists, practice this, get very comfortable with squeezing that front brake (and using the rear at the same time of course) for all yer worth, haul that bad boy down in practice the same way you would want to if you absolutely had to. Don't wait for it to happen and figure you'll do it then, it really does take practice.

And next week, assuming my ID hasn't been revoked for being a wordy pain in the ***, we'll go over Emergency Swerving and Cornering!! wooohoooo hahah

Enjoy all! Be Safe, don't let yerself be a statistic like the unfortunate person that this thread originally started for... may he rest in peace...

 

[charismaticmegafauna]

<snip> I would recommend to all my fellow cyclists, practice this, get very comfortable with squeezing that front brake (and using the rear at the same time of course) for all yer worth, haul that bad boy down in practice the same way you would want to if you absolutely had to. Don't wait for it to happen and figure you'll do it then, it really does take practice.

I'm with you, 'noob' -- all good stuff related, here. It might be a 'hard sell' in some quarters, though?

'jeremybhm': <snip>... if someone is pulling out in front of you, in your lane, or whatever ..... lock it down with all 4 digits and let the ABS take over. I tend to stick with two fingers for the braking that requires finesse though.

It seems that the fine art of motorcycle braking mastery may, in the future (especially), be turned over to the 'on-board-electronics' (ABS)?

 

[pmeysemb]

What is it about motorcycles? We've all seen the threads and read all the reasons for "why" we choose to ride. But, what is it about a motorcycle that makes so many feel as though they must exploit the very outer limits of the machine's capabilities? Why do so many seem to feel that to be 'better' they must push that envelope? And in my opinion, in order for one to truly find out where that line is, you have to cross it. Sometimes we don't come back. I have been there.

This is an indictment of myself more than anything else. With all other machines that I own or operate, I have a keen sense of a safe, mechanically easy, non-abusive field of operation for said machine. I never find myself pushing my wife's car through a corner just to see how fast I can negotiate the turn. Instead, I intuitively know what is safe and easy, on both the machine, and the operator. Just what is it about a motorcycle that makes so many turn into Mr. Hyde?

I have been him.

Is this just human nature, or have we all collectively created the measure to which we will all fall short? Does the motorcycle prey upon our competitive nature? When I think about it, and barring obvious outside influence, it is just not that complicated to safely operate a motorcycle. Yet, these stories persist. Time and time again group rides lead to mistakes.

I have been him.

My enjoyment of the motorcycle does not diminish when I stay safely within the boundaries. Then why do I wander from center? Is the psychology of the motorcyclist truly that much different? Do we have an undefined need for risk or excess?

Am I him?

Yikes! Thanks Scab, for that. Seriously. I am going to laminate these paragraphs and tape them to my windscreen on my SV for a reality check before each ride through the twisties in the park. This will go nicely with the pictures of the 3 kids and wife that I have to (still) get on there soon also.

Great reminder!