Datel readings

[charismaticmegafauna]

If the bike is at say 4500-5000 RPM's and you keep switching on stuff as the Datel meter starts reading below 13.1V you are then loading the stator to more than it's rated current, ...now the added current raises the wire temp ...and adjacent turns start to gradually short to each other and the stator goes **** up.

That's what I thought....

But you said, previously:

'Zorlac': Lower RPM results in less voltage out of the windings, therefore less voltage to the load and lower total current....if the load is fixed less current flows as the RPM's decrease.

And, he said:

'mcatrophy': If you are trying to say the load will drag more out of the alternator than it is willing to give, it doesn't work that way, the alternator can only give what that particular engine speed can make it generate.

All, in answer to this:

'Ignacio': It then doesn't really matter for the longevity of an alternator whether you load it down or not? It runs at 100% all the time.

Which is it? Does the 'load' matter to stator life? Or, is the stator putting out "MAX" all-the-time -- and therefore load is irrelevant (except to the battery)?

I tend to think you can 'over-load' the stator... (but, some say -- no).

 

[Zorlac]

Maybe a bicycle generator hooked to your bread toaster would be a good demonstration, start pedaling, then switch on the toaster and see how hard it gets to pedal, I guarantee you'll have that sandwich on plain bread! :lol:

Without the regulator the alt voltage would rise to over 20VDC so the reg just clips/shunts it to below ~14.8V.

The stator is NOT 100% loaded with the bike at any RPM with reg just keeping the voltage below 14.8V, just lightly loaded to clip the excess DC, the overloading comes in as you drag this voltage down with a load.

It IS possible to overload the stator with accessories and that's where the absolute minimum 13.1V continuous level used by the LD guys comes from, lest you start discharging the battery, and toast the stator over time

If you'd like, PM your phone # and I'll give you a call.

Mark.

 

[ionbeam]

Danger: :nerdsmiley: :lazy3: material below.

The scenario: The engine is spinning the stator at 5k rpm so the stator is producing the most energy it can based on the magnet strength, stator wire material (copper), diameter & length of the wire and the heat rating of the enamel that coats the wires; yielding the stator ampacity (the RMS current (the stator voltage is AC) which a device can continuously carry while remaining at or under its temperature rating).

Now, turn on A Bunch o' **** and exceed the 35 amps that the Gen I charging system is rated for. The battery voltage will start to drop below the minimum design limit as the current goes up over design limits. The battery voltage drops because the over taxed stator output voltage is dropping. At this time the stator wire is exceeding its ampacity, meaning that the temperature of the stator wire is in excess of its safe rating. The voltage drop is happening along the length of the stator wire. When the stator is under normal load there is only a small voltage drop, so there is little heat. As an excessive electrical load exceeds the capacity of the stator, the output voltage of the stator starts going down creating a voltage drop. Voltage drop = heat, the bigger the drop, the more the heat. Do you smell something burning?

Below 5k rpm the current generation capability of the stator is less, so the amount of current available is less, so a safe electrical load is less.

Regardless of engine/stator rpm, the battery voltage will always show the health of the charging system.

========================

Post #21 re-posted:

The FJR stator generates a high voltage AC output which reaches peak current from 5k rpm and up. The Rectifier/Regulator (R/R) converts the AC into DC at a voltage in excess of 14.5 volts. The regulator dumps all the excess power to ground, leaving ~14.5 volts DC on the output terminals of the regulator. The power that gets dumped to ground makes the R/R always run very hot. The Gen I stator & R/R system is rated to produce 35 amps at 14.0 volts at 5k rpm = 490 watts. Anything less than 5k rpm will produce less than 35 amps. A fixed power load that is acceptable at 5k rpm may overwhelm the charging system at 1k rpm (idle) because the stator's current output will be very low.

The battery would like to have a minimum of 13.2 volts to maintain a light trickle charge. Ideally, you would like to see the voltage at the battery terminals running 13.7 to 14.5 volts. In this sweet spot the stator is supplying sufficient current to maintain battery charge and sufficient power to run the electrical devices on the motorcycle without incurring an overheating condition.

When you see 12.8 volts at the battery terminals it indicates that the motorcycle's charging system has reached the end of its capability to supply sufficient current, and the battery is on the verge of supplying 'make-up' power. By 12.4 volts the charging circuit can no longer supply sufficient current, and the battery is starting to supply 'make-up' current and the battery is now slowly being discharged. The more significant event is that the stator is actually over-loaded and getting very hot, entering a zone where it can become permanently damaged.

With a good charging system, and a healthy, properly charged battery I would offer these guidelines for sustained voltages:

≤12.8 volts at the battery terminals – the charging system is over taxed, the battery is being discharged, and the stator is in danger of being permanently damaged.

12.8 to 13.2 volts – entering the danger zone, the battery is no longer being trickle charged and the stator is being taxed to the limits.

13.2 – 13.7 volts – undesirable but sustainable, the stator is taxed but the battery is being charged.

13.7 to 14.5 volts – schweet

12.7-12.8 volts – good battery voltage when it is fully charged and disconnected from the motorcycle; measured at 70°F

 

[charismaticmegafauna]

The stator is NOT 100% loaded with the bike at any RPM with reg just keeping the voltage below 14.8V, just lightly loaded to clip the excess DC, the overloading comes in as you drag this voltage down with a load.It IS possible to overload the stator with accessories and ... you start discharging the battery, and toast the stator over time

If you'd like, PM your phone # and I'll give you a call.

Mark.

Thanks for the offer, Mark -- but, I like the opportunity of reading and digesting the info (I might -- as a last-resort...).

Too bad other Forum members are subjugated to so much "tech"....(there may be 1 or 2 others actually interested?).

I think it's becoming increaingly clearer: Low rpm just produces less electrical power and doesn't hurt the stator -- just the battery. High rpm allows the stator to produce max-power and if the load exceeds max-output (490W/590W) then stator windings may fail -- due to higher current trying to satisfy the load.

Yet, there remains -- what he said:

'ionbeam': Even though the electrical system may be lightly loaded, the stator is still working hard because the voltage regulator is dumping a lot power to ground, generating heat as a byproduct.

Does the stator put-out Max-Output all-the-time (above 4K+~5K rpm) -- even without any accessories (I think it does)?

That may indicate -- that no accesseries and low rpm would ensure stator life (just enough to maintain the battery)....? Less heat being generated in the stator windings. (Quality of the stator windings appears to be the critical component...?)

Thanks -- to all. You guys are a great help (and appreciated).

 

[ionbeam]

Yet, there remains -- what he said:

'ionbeam': Even though the electrical system may be lightly loaded, the stator is still working hard because the voltage regulator is dumping a lot power to ground, generating heat as a byproduct.

Does the stator put-out Max-Output all-the-time (above 4K+~5K rpm) -- even without any accessories (I think it does)?

That may indicate -- that no accesseries and low rpm would ensure stator life (just enough to maintain the battery)....? Less heat being generated in the stator windings. (Quality of the stator windings appears to be the critical component...?)

Thanks -- to all. You guys are a great help (and appreciated).

Even though the electrical system may be lightly loaded, the stator is still working hard (yet within ampacity design limits) because the voltage regulator is dumping a lot power to ground, generating (a lot of voltage regulator) heat as a byproduct.

By design, the output voltage of the stator will be a bit more than normal electrical requirements creating some 'head-room'. The voltage regulator dumps any excess power to ground. At lower rpms the stator puts out proportionally less over voltage but still has 'head-room' based on straight stock FJR requirements.

Yes, the stator puts out maximum voltage and has maximum current available ≥5k rpm. The amount of current actually drawn will be equal to the load plus voltage regulator dumping.

Stator winding is indeed the critical component the way the FJR's charging system is designed. Another important item is even cooling provided by the oil system.

 

[git-r-dan]

I just read thru this discussion and wanted to let in on my recent road trip experience. I knew I needed a Datel but went ahead and installed the Zumo gps for the trip to AL/FL from Texas without the Datel. The trip back home started at 38 degrees and noticed that the grip warmers were not keeping up. They would fluctuate, come on then go off. I did notice if I dialed them down to the lowest setting, they would somewhat work but not when full on. I believe the problem is with the electronic clutch using most of the stator power and Yamaha not giving the AE's enough extra power but for a few farkles. I was, too, under the understanding that the radar detector, gps, autocom & smart tire add-ons were milliwatts not 10 or 20 watts each. Even so, what a bummer. I still have some lights to put on that are now out of the question unless they make a beefier stator for the AE. Dang!

 

[SkooterG]

I just read thru this discussion and wanted to let in on my recent road trip experience. I knew I needed a Datel but went ahead and installed the Zumo gps for the trip to AL/FL from Texas without the Datel. The trip back home started at 38 degrees and noticed that the grip warmers were not keeping up. They would fluctuate, come on then go off. I did notice if I dialed them down to the lowest setting, they would somewhat work but not when full on. I believe the problem is with the electronic clutch using most of the stator power and Yamaha not giving the AE's enough extra power but for a few farkles. I was, too, under the understanding that the radar detector, gps, autocom & smart tire add-ons were milliwatts not 10 or 20 watts each. Even so, what a bummer. I still have some lights to put on that are now out of the question unless they make a beefier stator for the AE. Dang!

Dude. The AE shouldn't be using THAT much electrical power. You need a Datel AND to do some checking of stuff. Something ain't right with your FJR.

 

[git-r-dan]

I'm ordering the Datel but had no problems with the bike as far as low battery at anytime on the 2200 mile trip. It could be something wrong with the grip warmers. I do know the 06' A's got 100 or so extra watts because they didn't have the electric clutch. It will be interesting to see where it stands with the Datel.

 

[Duster19]

Okay, after doing some serious reading I think my aftermarket stator is going bad. I have not yet crossed check my Datel numbers (since I have it hooked to Fuzeblock), I hope today to check numbers with a good volt reader.

Here are my thoughts...

I just got done starting the bike. At start up it read 12.5 and as bike warmed up at higher rpms the readings continued to climb to 14.0. As the bike warmed (2 bars) it dropped its idle down and the Datel then read around 12.4 with nothing running but the bike. From what I have read this is well below where it should be running at idle.

Dave

 

[ionbeam]

Okay, after doing some serious reading I think my aftermarket stator is going bad.

Duster, check out these two threads if you haven't already read them.

Electrosport Stator

Stator Woes

If you have a DMM and have the gumption to pull off plastic you can cut to the chase and diagnose the stator and know for certain if it is ok or not. Even though the FSM says to ohm the stator windings, your home grade DMM is not up to this job, but your DMM will do a yeoman's job at making a valid AC electrical test.

Gain access to the Rectifier/regulator, on the frame, left side, up next to the radiator fill cap. Unplug the connector with the three white wires. With the engine warm and running , hold at 5k rpm. Set DMM to AC volts. Measure voltage between any white wire to any white wire (not to ground). All three combinations should produce a reading of >60 volts AC, the voltage should be steady and equal between the white wires.

That's it, if it meets these conditions the stator is good, else it is bad.

 

[Duster19]

Okay, after doing some serious reading I think my aftermarket stator is going bad.

Duster, check out these two threads if you haven't already read them.

Electrosport Stator

Stator Woes

If you have a DMM and have the gumption to pull off plastic you can cut to the chase and diagnose the stator and know for certain if it is ok or not. Even though the FSM says to ohm the stator windings, your home grade DMM is not up to this job, but your DMM will do a yeoman's job at making a valid AC electrical test.

Gain access to the Rectifier/regulator, on the frame, left side, up next to the radiator fill cap. Unplug the connector with the three white wires. With the engine warm and running , hold at 5k rpm. Set DMM to AC volts. Measure voltage between any white wire to any white wire (not to ground). All three combinations should produce a reading of >60 volts AC, the voltage should be steady and equal between the white wires.

That's it, if it meets these conditions the stator is good, else it is bad.

Well, I don't have the tools or know how to actually do that. I am planning on heading over to Matt's house later tonight to have him run a volt test directly to my battery. This will also help me see how accurate my Datel is when hooked to Fuzeblock. I really want to trouble shoot this before I take it to Powersports. They were the ones who installed the aftermarket stator. Installing a new one myself is beyond what I want to try.

Dave

 

[Capt. Bob]

This will also help me see how accurate my Datel is when hooked to Fuzeblock. Dave

I can only speak of mine but direct measurement at the battery (fully charged) results in a 13.2 reading.

Datel measures 12.9

As they say, close enough for government work. :dirol:

13.9 is my magic number while at speed. Add the .3 and I'm in the "shweet zone" Ion refers to.

 

[Duster19]

Okay here are my readings from tonight.

Datel and Multimeter

No load (ig off): 12.3 (Datel) / 12.6 (Multimeter)

1K rpm 12.3 (Datel) / 12.3 (Multimeter)

2K rpm 13.2 (Datel) / 13.2 (Multimeter) ----> 12.5 with lights (30 seconds to get to 13.2)

4K rpm (Datel) 14.0 / 13.9 (Multimeter)

 

[Toecutter]

≤12.8 volts at the battery terminals – the charging system is over taxed, the battery is being discharged, and the stator is in danger of being permanently damaged.
12.8 to 13.2 volts – entering the danger zone, the battery is no longer being trickle charged and the stator is being taxed to the limits.

13.2 – 13.7 volts – undesirable but sustainable, the stator is taxed but the battery is being charged.

13.7 to 14.5 volts – schweet

12.7-12.8 volts – good battery voltage when it is fully charged and disconnected from the motorcycle; measured at 70°F

Good stuff. I checked my system out this morning on the way to work. With all headlights, full grip heaters, and the Solteks running, it was at 13.6 on the Escort readout, which was 14.1 with no load. I'll take that, but I could always switch off the left headlight when running the Solteks for some watt savings....

 

[Duster19]

After 24 hours of being on the Battery Tender I retested the battery and at idle I'm still getting a reading of 12.5. Mike at Desert Valley told me it's possible that since I drained battery on trip that it wasn't fully charged back by the bike (I've been told this is debatable). So the battery is out and I'm taking it over to them tomorrow to do a load test and if it fails I'll get a new battery and go from there.

Dave

 

[Duster19]

After 24 hours of being on the Battery Tender I retested the battery and at idle I'm still getting a reading of 12.5. Mike at Desert Valley told me it's possible that since I drained battery on trip that it wasn't fully charged back by the bike (I've been told this is debatable). So the battery is out and I'm taking it over to them tomorrow to do a load test and if it fails I'll get a new battery and go from there.


Dave

Update:

The battery tested good. Looks like it might be stator.

 

[git-r-dan]

Dude. The AE shouldn't be using THAT much electrical power. You need a Datel AND to do some checking of stuff. Something ain't right with your FJR.

Got the Datel installed. My battery was discharged from setting for a while so at the startup it measured 13.5 off the battery and 13.0 after hooking up in a switched location. Then off to some highway driving... it was steadily climbing and was between 13.5 - 13.7 after running for quite some time. With the grip warmers on, it ran about 13.2 - 13.3. Guess I figure to add .5 so it should be alright? :unknw:

 

[Duster19]

Dude. The AE shouldn't be using THAT much electrical power. You need a Datel AND to do some checking of stuff. Something ain't right with your FJR.

Got the Datel installed. My battery was discharged from setting for a while so at the startup it measured 13.5 off the battery and 13.0 after hooking up in a switched location. Then off to some highway driving... it was steadily climbing and was between 13.5 - 13.7 after running for quite some time. With the grip warmers on, it ran about 13.2 - 13.3. Guess I figure to add .5 so it should be alright? :unknw:

What does your Datel read at idle with bike being warmed up? Mine read 12.5

PS. Mine is in the Shop getting looked at. I'm affraid it's a bad stator.

 

[git-r-dan]

Warmed up "...it measured 13.5 off the battery and 13.0 after hooking up in a switched location." Just wished the stator gave us more headroom for lots of add-ons. Duster, good luck on getting that fixed.

Skooter, you're right on the AE not taking much more power. When shifting gears on the AE or blowing the Stebel air horns, it (Datel) takes a quick spike down but recovers immediately.

Here's a quote from Electrosport.com: "These Yamaha FJR1300 models have a permanent magnet battery charging system, consisting of a large stator with three output wires, which feed into a beefy regulator/rectifier (mounted under the fairing LH side high up on the frame). This unit rectifies the AC into DC and regulates this DC to 14.5V to ensure proper battery charging. The output from the regulator/rectifier connects to the battery through a main fuse. FJR1300 06-08 models employ a 500W charging system ... How to Diagnose Electrical System Issues on Motorcycles ... Any well-working modern motorcycle charging system will produce a voltage over the battery terminals in between 13.5V DC and 14.5V DC, over the entire rev range."