Does Radar work on Bikes? Hell yes...

[Mike-H]

They spec and build a road for 80 - 85 mph and post it for 55 mph.

I oftentimes wondered who was the bonehead who posted speeds on lots of rural roads thinking to myself, "yeah, maybe that makes sense for an Amish family in a horse and buggy, but come on.... " :glare:

Groo....only if the Amish family have a race horse & buggy...

 

[Groo]

They spec and build a road for 80 - 85 mph and post it for 55 mph.

I oftentimes wondered who was the bonehead who posted speeds on lots of rural roads thinking to myself, "yeah, maybe that makes sense for an Amish family in a horse and buggy, but come on.... " :glare:

Groo....only if the Amish family have a race horse & buggy...

No, that's just it... the speed limits look more like what an Amish family with a rented mule and a covered wagon might find acceptable.... :huh:

 

[Sherman]

If the headlight reflector buckets are the main source of our certificates, then shouldn't we use some sort of deflector-protection shield in the daytime to cover the mains, with small aux running lights. Then take the shields off at night and use the larger headlight reflector buckets for dedicated high beams?

 

[boogahboogah]

FYI - You know you're on an Amish road by the little brown lumps on the right hand side of the road, usually pounded somewhat flat by traffic. At that point they don't smell anymore...

I was in Amish country a couple of days ago. They drive 10-15 MPH, whatever the speed limit.

 

[ionbeam]

headlight reflector buckets are the main source of our certificates, then shouldn't we use some sort of deflector-protection shield

In a controlled radar test with 10 different types of bikes they found two sport bikes with dual headlights that spiked the radar signal. Those headlight buckets were for older style bulbs. The shape of the reflectors for current bulbs is different enough that they are *probably* not a problem. There has been a big advancement in front lenses and bulb tip coatings that has allowed reflector buckets to change shape. I haven't seen a recent radar evaluation where 5 year old and newer headlight buckets were checked for radar reflectivity. If you ride an older dual headlight sport bike... your on your own

Don't worry about our FJRs headlight buckets. My FJR ride by tests at speed trailers has shown that our FJR is fairly stealthy when head on and tail on to radar. The side radar signal is larger but when the radar gun is 90 degrees to the target cosine error makes speed measurement very inaccurate and usually won't stand up in court.

 

[HIGHLANDER]

Alan or Rich,

Either of you guys run into "Radar Veil " in your testing ? There was a huge thread on STN about this a while ago.

Also, how about Bilnders / Jammers, any field testing on those ??

https://www.laserveil.com/

 

[exskibum]

Alan or Rich,
Either of you guys run into "Radar Veil " in your testing ? There was a huge thread on STN about this a while ago.

Also, how about Bilnders / Jammers, any field testing on those ??

https://www.laserveil.com/

Yeah, Dave, my recollection was that a couple bikes had used a "veil" product. I was off riding twisties some 50+ miles away when they were doing this, but my recollection is that the post that followed addressed that on a couple bikes whose owners said they had used it. If they did use it properly, then the result was that it was not effective -- nothing anyone had was effective against the radar and the only thing that was effective against the lidar was the black XX with the red (iridium or iridium like) windscreen, but I don't remember if there was any mention of whether that bike was using anything else. No one was running any kind of a Jammer, at least not for a speed run in which they WANTED to be clocked. :lol:

Problem is that this wasn't really a test of radar and/or stealth measures; it was radar/lidar measured top speed runs. After the meet, the LEO (there were at least 1 or 2 other LEOs there) who had done the radar/lidar speed measurements responded in a lengthy post to questions about the way it worked and whether he'd had any trouble picking up anyone's bikes. I recall some other post about applying the veil product, but can't swear it was in the same thread -- does it wash off with regular car wash detergents, etc. If I'd gotten the impression anything was effective, you can believe I'd be using it.

I think everyone knows about the instant on radar, and I saw another example of its use last Saturday on Hwy 299 just east of Weaverville when the lead rider of 4 of us got a performance award from a LEO going the other direction. He and the second rider had detectors, and both claimed they lit up just as the cop appeared -- followed by the dreaded LEO brakelight display and U-turn. Needless to say, I wasn't disappointed that my bike's performance wasn't commended.

 

[HIGHLANDER]

Alan or Rich,

Either of you guys run into "Radar Veil " in your testing ? There was a huge thread on STN about this a while ago.

Also, how about Bilnders / Jammers, any field testing on those ??

https://www.laserveil.com/

and the only thing that was effective against the lidar was the black XX with the red (iridium or iridium like) windscreen,

Thanks.... I wonder how much an Iridium paint job will cost ?? Gotta be less than a couple tix!

 

[NC_Yank]

The biggest problem I have with radar detectors (and alike) are that they are deceptive at best.

I can only speak for the laws and training in North Carolina however I am sure that many other states are the same..........the training we went through to even run radar was such that it was the officers training and experience that was used to testify to ones speed, the radar just validated that opinion.

Officers do not need to run radar in order to write you a ticket.....and more often then not because of the their training, most judges will convict you justed based upon that opinion.

Before some of you get your undies all uptight, I am not saying that you should be hung for speeding.................we all speed at one time or another...........we all know how easy it is to do 60 mph in

a curve that has a suggested limit of 35 or 45.

As is evident by this post.......the rider was relying on a detector to keep his wallet in place....instead of using common sense that would dictate that if you are doing 73 mph in a 45 mph zone.................well then you are without excuse for those speeds................no need to cry, just a matter of saying......yep, I was willing to take the risk............and be done with it.

Anyway, thats my 2 cents.........warm regards and ride safe.....

NC

 

[madmike2]

IIRC, one of the cycle magazines was having trouble "locking on" to an Aprillia Futura. Hmmmm, interesting if one wants to ride at "those" speeds.

I don't expect my radar detector to "save me", but to alert me that they are indeed using radar around me. If one rides in the Sierras, one should be aware that they are using radar on Hwy 49 at all times. Sherriffs and Park Rangers, too! Right Dave? Hwy 395, too, as mine "lit up" several times while Southbound, and, sure enough, I'd see one in a mile or so. Methinks they use it as a "tool" to control the masses, assuming some people have detectors.

 

[exskibum]

If one rides in the Sierras, one should be aware that they are using radar on Hwy 49 at all times. Sherriffs and Park Rnagers, too! Right Dave?) Hwy 395, too, as mine "lit up" several times while Southbound, and, sure enough, I'd see one in a mile or so. Methinks they use it as a "tool" to control the masses, assuming some people have detectors.

Let me add to that list, Mike. Hwy 89 from Truckee north of the Lake to Meyers south of the Lake is regularly irradiated with microwave signals as well. Have you picked up radar signals all the way to Bassetts Grade on 49?

 

[madmike2]

Let me add to that list, Mike. Hwy 89 from Truckee north of the Lake to Meyers south of the Lake is regularly irradiated with microwave signals as well. Have you picked up radar signals all the way to Bassetts Grade on 49?

I haven't been up that direction since I mounted the device, but since you are a reservoir of information on that area, I bow to your knowledge. I don't intend to add to the "county coffers" and help balance their budget.

 

[SkooterG]

He said most radar guns discriminate based upon mass, but there are some (more expensive models) that discriminate based upon highest speed. Fortunately, most departments have few of the more expensive models.

Very basic: The radar gun turns on and emits a microwave beam, the radiating antenna shuts off, the receiving antenna turns on. When the microwaves strike an object they get reflected back. The radar gun's receiving antenna picks up the reflected waves. Microwaves travel at a predictable rate, there is a delay between emit and receive. Speed & time=distance, do the math. Repeat the emit, receive. Do the math. Compare reading 1 with reading 2. The difference is speed. (Any techie perverts wanna discuss phase-angle measurements? )

Radar striking a large, flat, solid object will return a strong signal. Radar striking a soft object will return a weak signal. Radar striking a highly angular surface will reflect, but will not reflect directly back to the gun causing a weaker signal due to scattering. Most motorcycles are small, somewhat soft and angular. Kenworth 18 wheeler is flat, hard and square. Motorcycle reflected signal is scattered and weak. Kenworth is a strong signal.

When the radar gun is receiving signals back, it is easier for it to read the strong signals, therefore the gun manufacturers designed the guns to lock on the strong signal and to do the math on the strong signal. In these days of digital signal processing the radar guns have the option to sort through several reflected signals independent of signal strength and pick out the signal from the vehicle with the fastest speed. The gun knows which signal is indicating the fastest speed -- but -- does the officer know which vehicle it is?

In an ugly twist of fate, some headlight reflector buckets are close to being a perfect parabolic dish shape for focusing microwaves and returning a signal back to the gun that is equal to the Kenworth. Bummer, eh?

BTW, I occasionally rode in my brother's cruiser during his patrol days. He used to point to a car, say "68 mph"; trigger his radar gun and read 69 mph. He was almost never off by 2 mph. Most experienced cops can do this.

LIDAR -- If the cop gets a good aim he knows the target, knows your speed, here is your ticket. As previously mentioned, the cop already knows you are speeding and has a pretty good idea of what your speed is. The gun just documents it for the courts.

Not so young grasshopper!

Police speed detecting radar operates using the doppler shift principle. You know, the train whistle thing. Otherwise your post had a lot of good, accurate info.

Interesting thread. First time I have gandered at it. Some good info here, but some mis-information also. This is somewhat of a complicated subject matter that would take several days of classroom instruction to cover everything properly. Kind of hard to do it in a paragraph or two.

Best keep your wits about you!

 

[chipset]

Timely topic. I was riding with a friend all week in NC. He kept saying how the radar signs in his area can never get a read on him. He didn't think they could actually get a lock on him.

He took Skyline Drive home. Well, needless to say, he got stopped speeding on the way.

He got off with a warning.

Then, due to the low speeds, took the freeways back to NJ.

 

[ionbeam]

Not so young grasshopper!

Oh, Skoot, that's so cold.
What I wrote is accurate -- ping, read, ping, read. I didn't go into Doppler or how Doppler is read :lazy: 'cuse it is a dry read and doesn't add anything additional to how radar works for riders :lazy:

Police speed detecting radar operates using the doppler shift principle

In my post I wrote:

(Any techie perverts wanna discuss phase-angle measurements?)

Phase-angle is how the Doppler shift is actually measured in the gun. The gun samples the zero crossing angle of the emitted sinusoidal microwave and then compares the zero crossing angle of the returned sinusoidal wave. If the returned wave is either compressed or stretched due to the Doppler effect there is a phase angle error. The phase error is processed to generate a DC voltage that is proportional to the error. The DC voltage then gets an A/D conversion and is then further processed for noise, temperature, etc. The magnitude of the DC voltage is where speed is derived from. Phase-angle is used in almost all modern receivers to lock and hold frequencies using superhetrodyne mixers as part of the voltage controlled oscillators (VCO).

FJR content is pretty thin here!

 

[SkooterG]

Not so young grasshopper!

Oh, Skoot, that's so cold.
What I wrote is accurate -- ping, read, ping, read. I didn't go into Doppler or how Doppler is read :lazy: 'cuse it is a dry read and doesn't add anything additional to how radar works for riders :lazy:

Police speed detecting radar operates using the doppler shift principle

In my post I wrote:

(Any techie perverts wanna discuss phase-angle measurements?)

Phase-angle is how the Doppler shift is actually measured in the gun. The gun samples the zero crossing angle of the emitted sinusoidal microwave and then compares the zero crossing angle of the returned sinusoidal wave. If the returned wave is either compressed or stretched due to the Doppler effect there is a phase angle error. The phase error is processed to generate a DC voltage that is proportional to the error. The DC voltage then gets an A/D conversion and is then further processed for noise, temperature, etc. The magnitude of the DC voltage is where speed is derived from. Phase-angle is used in almost all modern receivers to lock and hold frequencies using superhetrodyne mixers as part of the voltage controlled oscillators (VCO).

FJR content is pretty thin here!

Yikes! I stand corrected. You obviously have a firm grasp on the subject matter.

What led me astray what the following:

Microwaves travel at a predictable rate, there is a delay between emit and receive. Speed & time=distance, do the math. Repeat the emit, receive. Do the math. Compare reading 1 with reading 2. The difference is speed.

I thought you were heading down the road of PRR, PRF, and all that good stuff. With doppler, there really is not the distance=speed X time calculations so much as measured differences in phase-angle.

I think.



So is this phase-angle the same thing as the doppler frequency shift?

 

[ionbeam]

Doppler shift is the text book name for the way waves are effected by relative movement between objects. Phase-angle is a convenient way for electronics to process (measure) these changes.

 

[brazos parker]

Here's what I've learned from reading this thread and other similar ones...

More often than not, a radar/lidar detector on a bike will give the rider a "warning" shortly after his speed has been "locked" by the LEO...assuming, of course, the "gun" is being used in the hands of an experienced, trained and competent LEO.

Am I reading this correctly? If so, then I'll save my detector $'s for other farkles.

 

[charismaticmegafauna]

<snip>.....we all know how easy it is to do 60 mph in a curve that has a suggested limit of 35 or 45.

Those are just "suggestions" and intended for cars and not "speed limits".As to radar and detectors: yes the Kenworth does emit a strong reflection -- but, the LEO is looking out the windshield, too! If he sees 77mph, for instance, and you passing the Kenworth at a good clip -- well "someone's" speeding and he knows who that is. And, yes, judges do like to take the officer's word. Sometimes, I've seen it happen, the Judge will accept the "Phantom Semi" defence -- but only once. Heaven help you if you come before him again......

 

[madmike2]

Here's what I've learned from reading this thread and other similar ones...If so, then I'll save my detector $'s for other farkles.

As I stated before, I use mine so I know if they're out there. I will get an "echo" while coming over a hill or around a canyon, just enough to let me know they are ahead and taking pictures. I then have time to double check my speed.

If you are the type who does not attempt to "push the envelope" and rides within 5 mph of the posted speed limit, save your bucks for something more personally worthwhile.