drilling small holes in the clutch basket?
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Brodie
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Seems to me that the wrong part was drilled. Drilling the basket spins out what oil may be there trying to do its job in an already dry area. I remember reading about drilling more holes in the clutch hub - the component that the steel discs spline into. This would help distribute splashed oil to more surfaces within the clutch pack.
Just a thought
Brodie
Just a thought
Brodie
Mihalis fjr
Well-known member
I always read with interest the whole “clutch soak” thing. Very surprising how dry some clutches are found upon disassembly. The FJR does have a wet clutch and it is located well above the oil sump level but directly next to, and driven by, the crankshaft primary gear. However, as stated by others, the clutch basket fully encloses the clutch pack so little if any oil will get inside the clutch from the outside even with the oil spray coming from the crankshaft. Drilling holes in the hub is going to let out what little oil is already in there. That may not be a big issue but how do we get more oil IN to the center of the clutch??
The one thing that intrigues me is the fact that both transmission shafts ARE fed with oil pressure. The main shaft, to which the clutch is attached, has oil flowing in to it as shown by this picture from my Genuine Yamaha Service manual (I added the Yellow Lines to show the oil flow). It also shows that the large needle bearing for the clutch hub is the really the closest item to the clutch that gets an oil feed hole. The red lines show where additional oil flow might be needed based on what some forum members have seen when doing their soaks.
I think minimal amounts of oil may be getting all the way in to the center of the clutch pack, but the tight fit of the last components of the clutch actuation rod items (short push rod, ball, final push rod) prevent/restrict that oil flow (perhaps it’s engineered that way?). I wonder if a narrow length-wise groove in these items would let additional oil flow to the clutch pack? (the ball might be an issue.. it does need to move/turn freely I assume). Then add some holes to the center hub and a combination of these items could alleviate some of the recurring clutch soaks and other issues some have experienced. AND those extra holes in the basket would certainly let the oil out. Anyway, just thought I’d toss this out there…(and I needed to test my scanner…LOL).
Regards,
Mr. BR
The one thing that intrigues me is the fact that both transmission shafts ARE fed with oil pressure. The main shaft, to which the clutch is attached, has oil flowing in to it as shown by this picture from my Genuine Yamaha Service manual (I added the Yellow Lines to show the oil flow). It also shows that the large needle bearing for the clutch hub is the really the closest item to the clutch that gets an oil feed hole. The red lines show where additional oil flow might be needed based on what some forum members have seen when doing their soaks.
I think minimal amounts of oil may be getting all the way in to the center of the clutch pack, but the tight fit of the last components of the clutch actuation rod items (short push rod, ball, final push rod) prevent/restrict that oil flow (perhaps it’s engineered that way?). I wonder if a narrow length-wise groove in these items would let additional oil flow to the clutch pack? (the ball might be an issue.. it does need to move/turn freely I assume). Then add some holes to the center hub and a combination of these items could alleviate some of the recurring clutch soaks and other issues some have experienced. AND those extra holes in the basket would certainly let the oil out. Anyway, just thought I’d toss this out there…(and I needed to test my scanner…LOL).
Regards,
Mr. BR
I have a new clutch hub sitting in the box next to my desk, waiting to be installed as part of my slipper/assist clutch upgrade.
Now, I'm not sure if this new 2016 slipper clutch hub is the same as prior years, but this one most definitely does have 3 sets of 3 holes in it that would allow any oil that makes its way to the inside of the hub to get into the friction plates by centrifugal force.
Now, I'm not sure if this new 2016 slipper clutch hub is the same as prior years, but this one most definitely does have 3 sets of 3 holes in it that would allow any oil that makes its way to the inside of the hub to get into the friction plates by centrifugal force.
In your Service Manual sketch you can see a a large flat washer on the axle just to the left of the clutch boss and to the right of the clutch housing bearing.
That washer has some shallow grooves cut in it which radiate out from the center hole. Oil can escape from the clutch housing bearing and follow the grooves out into the area between the clutch boss and housing. The oil on the back of the boss can enter the boss through a few holes into the inner cavity.
The oil which doesn't enter the boss is slung out to the outer edge of the boss and onto the inside of the clutch housing. The oil then flows outward in the clutch housing and eventually impacts the damper on the clutch cover.
In the area you've highlighted with red there's an o-ring on the short push rod just to the right of the ball inside the axle. Don't know if the o-ring is for stopping the oil from proceeding any farther to the right onto the short rod?
That washer has some shallow grooves cut in it which radiate out from the center hole. Oil can escape from the clutch housing bearing and follow the grooves out into the area between the clutch boss and housing. The oil on the back of the boss can enter the boss through a few holes into the inner cavity.
The oil which doesn't enter the boss is slung out to the outer edge of the boss and onto the inside of the clutch housing. The oil then flows outward in the clutch housing and eventually impacts the damper on the clutch cover.
In the area you've highlighted with red there's an o-ring on the short push rod just to the right of the ball inside the axle. Don't know if the o-ring is for stopping the oil from proceeding any farther to the right onto the short rod?
Looking at these photos the OE clutch boss doesn't appear to have the three sets of holes on the outer edge.
https://atrophy.lock.net/pi/20100320/DSCF5881_en.jpg
https://atrophy.lock.net/pi/20100320/DSCF5882_en.jpg
It also appears that the outer grooves are narrower on the OE boss although it's difficult to compare from the photos.
Maybe wider grooves are necessary on the new boss so that the pressure plate can rotate slightly relative to the boss as it ramps back and forth.
It would be interesting to closely compare the new and old components.
https://atrophy.lock.net/pi/20100320/DSCF5881_en.jpg
https://atrophy.lock.net/pi/20100320/DSCF5882_en.jpg
It also appears that the outer grooves are narrower on the OE boss although it's difficult to compare from the photos.
Maybe wider grooves are necessary on the new boss so that the pressure plate can rotate slightly relative to the boss as it ramps back and forth.
It would be interesting to closely compare the new and old components.
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Brodie
Darksider #16 - and Proud of it !
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Gentlemen,
Have a look at this thread...
https://www.z1000forum.com/forum/z1000-problems-issues/132762-transmission-rattle-noise-start-up-fix.html
I remember doing this very same thing to my Honda Ascot's clutch hub - way too long ago. Didn't harm it at all.
It documents the drilling of the clutch hub on a Kawasaki Z1000 to bring more oiling to the way-too-dry clutch plates. They also make another modification, they grind a .010 flat to the clutch release rod - just enough to dribble a little more oil into the clutch hub to feed the new holes they drilled. Granted the clutch release rod is actuated by a cable on the right side of their engine, not from a push rod from the left like our engines. But it seems to me that something like that could be emulated without flowing too much oil and starving the other items serviced by the oil galleries.
What say you - Smart People ?
Doable ?
Brodie
Have a look at this thread...
https://www.z1000forum.com/forum/z1000-problems-issues/132762-transmission-rattle-noise-start-up-fix.html
I remember doing this very same thing to my Honda Ascot's clutch hub - way too long ago. Didn't harm it at all.
It documents the drilling of the clutch hub on a Kawasaki Z1000 to bring more oiling to the way-too-dry clutch plates. They also make another modification, they grind a .010 flat to the clutch release rod - just enough to dribble a little more oil into the clutch hub to feed the new holes they drilled. Granted the clutch release rod is actuated by a cable on the right side of their engine, not from a push rod from the left like our engines. But it seems to me that something like that could be emulated without flowing too much oil and starving the other items serviced by the oil galleries.
What say you - Smart People ?
Doable ?
Brodie
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lele
Well-known member
this is better than drill holes on outer basket..who try on FJR?
Brodie
Darksider #16 - and Proud of it !
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Good question...
Who will be the first ?
Brodie
Who will be the first ?
Brodie
C-Mesh,
You are correct on the o-ring.. I was not aware of that! Hmmmm....
Simply remove the O-ring and increase oil flow to your clutch pack?
Mr. BR
Brodie
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This mod is to complement the clutch hub drilling.
IMPORTANT !!!
DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES REASSEMBLE THE CLUTCH WITH THIS O-RING DAMAGED OR REMOVED !
You will run the risk of severe oil starvation to critical rotating elements due to a lower than designed oil pressure in the oil galleries.
I looked into this with my bike, click HERE to see my results.
Brodie
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Good point, Brodie.
It does seem logical that the O-ring is there to stop or at least restrict the oil flow through the main-shaft to the inner clutch pack... which would also maintain the oil pressure upstream for those items getting fed (the non-splined gears on the main-shaft, the shaft bearing and the clutch-basket needle bearing etc). Dang.... one little o-ring and the whole situation changes! For those who have be looking at a first or even second clutch soak, this really does seem like a possible solution to getting more oil in to the clutch pack and flattening part of the O-ring would be quick and simple. I suppose you'd might have to pull the clutch apart again later on to see IF there was more oil getting through (I wouldn't expect to bone dry plates as some have found). Very intriguing to me.. except the clutch on my '05 works fine so I won't be digging in to mine anytime soon! But if I do, I have a few ideas about shooting some some interesting videos.
Mr. BR
It does seem logical that the O-ring is there to stop or at least restrict the oil flow through the main-shaft to the inner clutch pack... which would also maintain the oil pressure upstream for those items getting fed (the non-splined gears on the main-shaft, the shaft bearing and the clutch-basket needle bearing etc). Dang.... one little o-ring and the whole situation changes! For those who have be looking at a first or even second clutch soak, this really does seem like a possible solution to getting more oil in to the clutch pack and flattening part of the O-ring would be quick and simple. I suppose you'd might have to pull the clutch apart again later on to see IF there was more oil getting through (I wouldn't expect to bone dry plates as some have found). Very intriguing to me.. except the clutch on my '05 works fine so I won't be digging in to mine anytime soon! But if I do, I have a few ideas about shooting some some interesting videos.
Mr. BR
So, those who upgrade to the slipper / assist 2016 clutch also get the benefit of improved oiling of the clutch plates. Nice. It will be of interest to see what the hub from my 2014 looks like when I take it out. The disengagement of my 2014 clutch is much better than my old 2005 was, as evidenced by the (nearly total) lack of kerchunk going from neutral into 1st gear. Maybe they added the holes in the hub sometime earlier than 2016?
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lele
Well-known member
Remove the hub need a special tool?
Mihalis fjr
Well-known member
You will need this,also you can buy it from a Yamaha dealer
art number :90890-04086https://www.cmsnl.com/products/cluctc-holder_9089004086/#.V2br_9KLS00
rPGoatBoy
Well-known member
Or, you put the bike in 5th gear on the side stand and hit the nut holding the inner hub in place with an impact wrench. Probably a good idea to have someone standing in front of the bike holding the handlebars, just to make sure the bike stays in place. Shouldn't take much effort for the impact wrench to break the nut loose.You will need this,also you can buy it from a Yamaha dealer
https://www.cmsnl.com/products/cluctc-holder_9089004086/#.V2br_9KLS00
Viper Pilot
Well-known member
I used a small impact wrench to remove the nut when I changed the clutch on my '05 to the '16 slipper clutch. It worked just fine and didn't worry about the bike or rear wheel moving.
wfooshee
O, Woe is me!!
That o-ring has NOTHING to do with restricting oil flow to the clutch. There's no oil behind that O-ring, it keeps the actuator rod dry. If that passage through which the actuator rod passes actually filled with oil, you might find the slave solenoid hydraulically restricted. Not actuation of the clutch, but release of the spring. the clutch would not clamp because the spring could not relax with oil behind where that O-ring sits.
Do NOT remove that O-ring!
Do NOT remove that O-ring!
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