Electronic Shift
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RadioHowie
I Miss Beemerdons!
[SIZE=13pt]Claim: During the filming of the 1958 Disney nature documentary White Wilderness, the film crew induced lemmings into jumping off a cliff and into the sea in order to document their supposedly suicidal behavior. [/SIZE]
Status: True.
But don't take MY word for it! :bleh:
[SIZE=7pt](gotta admit, though, that was a clever retort)[/SIZE]
Quote: "Luddite"
Do tell! How about these [once] great new technologies?
Hydrogen filled air ships
The soft iron Titantic
The Edsal
The Buster Brown Xray shoe machine
The Concorde
Just because the engineering world "can" do something, doesn't mean it's the smartest thing to do.
The best part of new technology is, there's always a certain percentage of people willing to embrace it, which is great for the rest of us when things go wrong! :beta:
Aw heck, just buy a damn scooter and be done with it!
Do tell! How about these [once] great new technologies?
Hydrogen filled air ships
The soft iron Titantic
The Edsal
The Buster Brown Xray shoe machine
The Concorde
Just because the engineering world "can" do something, doesn't mean it's the smartest thing to do.
The best part of new technology is, there's always a certain percentage of people willing to embrace it, which is great for the rest of us when things go wrong! :beta:
Aw heck, just buy a damn scooter and be done with it!
RadioHowie
I Miss Beemerdons!
The Hindenburg blows up in New Jersey. 35 die. Blame the U.S. Navy for hoarding helium for their own airship fleet. Wouldn't sell helium to Germany. The Hindenburg's sister ship, the Graf Zeppelin, flew for 12 trouble-free years including the first circumnavigation of the globe...31,000 miles in 21 days. So what's wrong with hydrogen filled air ships?
Funny, never heard anything bad about the rest of the White Star fleet.
The Edsel...One of THE most collected cars from the late 50's/early 60's. The car was a marketing disaster. Overpricing, quality control and poor styling killed the Edsel, not technological problems.
I want some of what you're smoking
35 successful flying years with only 1 fatal accident.
Just what the heck is your point with the examples you provided?
Apparently I already did. Or are you saying the design of the clutch determines "scooter-ism". So an FJR with a lever and hydraulic line is a motorcycle and an FJR with an electronically servo-controlled clutch is a scooter? So using your impeccable logic, if I buy a Majesty or Burgman and put a cable or hyrdraulic clutch on it, that makes it a motorcycle?
epoche
Well-known member
OK so the 06AE is not an automatic transmission. So short of selecting neutral-- when at a stop--how does one keep the bike from moving forward-- without a clutch for disengaging the tranny from the drive system? I assume there is no torque converter as part of the system.
gr8eyes
Well-known member
Anyone read the article in this months Cycle World about Jamie James' R1. The writer was about to piss himself he was so excited with the performance. Oh, by the way it has a push button electronic clutch type shift mechanism. OK here is the quote from the article " the quick shifter is used for seamless up shifts under power-just pin the throttle and activate the lever, no clutch needed." This from the highest performance Street legal R1 they have ever tested. mmmmmmmm........ makes you think, or maybe not.
Glenn
Glenn
mastercaster
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epoche, where did you read there is no clutch on the AE? it has one just so you know.
RadioHowie
I Miss Beemerdons!
Your mistake here is thinking that there's no clutch. It's still there. What's missing is the clutch lever. The assumption, based on similar systems used in automobiles, is the portion of the ECU that controls the clutch would monitor engine speed and/or road speed and disengage the clutch when engine rpms or wheel revolutions indicated the need for the clutch to be "pulled in".
Again, basing the autoclutch premise on automotive applications, there is plenty of room for the driver to screw up. One could pull up to a stop sign or red light and the clutch would disengage automatically as revs/speed drop. Then, when traffic cleared or the light turned green, the pilot increases engine speed to drive away and promptly stalls the bike, 'cause he/she is still in 5th gear.
I can't help but think Yamaha has anticipated this and has designed some sort of downshifting program/function into the AE to prevent the embarassment and possible danger of stalling in heavy traffic. If they haven't thought about this possibility, I'd be greatly surprised by such an obvious oversight.
We'll know for sure in a few months, and I'm guessing the electro-hydraulic clutch was the REAL reason Yamaha decided to add a gear indicator on the '06.
BrunDog
Well-known member
I don't think anyone has addressed the throttle operation on the AE.
Surely Yamaha has addressed this, but how does the shift controller affect the throttle during shifts?
When you accelerate on the full manuals we have now, we let up on the throttle (a little or a lot depending on how you drive) during shift periods. This must be done on the AE too, but I wonder if the rider will still do it or the ECU will handle it by disabling or retarding timing, reduce injector open periods, etc.
It would be annoying to hold on full throttle and have the engine rev up between shifts!
Of course, for me it would be annoying to be without the clutch level and control altogether...
-BD
Surely Yamaha has addressed this, but how does the shift controller affect the throttle during shifts?
When you accelerate on the full manuals we have now, we let up on the throttle (a little or a lot depending on how you drive) during shift periods. This must be done on the AE too, but I wonder if the rider will still do it or the ECU will handle it by disabling or retarding timing, reduce injector open periods, etc.
It would be annoying to hold on full throttle and have the engine rev up between shifts!
Of course, for me it would be annoying to be without the clutch level and control altogether...
-BD
"Funny, never heard anything bad about the rest of the White Star fleet."
Damn dude! The rest?! Isn't one giant mistake bad enough?
"The Edsel...One of THE most collected cars from the late 50's/early 60's. The car was a marketing disaster. Overpricing, quality control and poor styling killed the Edsel, not technological problems."
Bottom line; new technology... and it still didn't make it, did it?
"The Buster Brown Xray shoe machine."
" I want some of what you're smoking."
Read your history books. Believe it or not, years ago the xray shoe machine was a "new" technology. Unfortunately it had a tendency to create radiation poisioning.
"35 successful flying years with only 1 fatal accident."
Here's one more techie achievement that didn't continue, and struggled to stay financially afloat. Notice no one is making super-sonic passenger planes any more?
"Just what the heck is your point with the examples you provided?"
Simple! Your thread, "Electronic Shift, you're gonna want it!"
Points are:
a) Since you haven't driven it, you're guessing will like it.
B) If you want it, go for it, but don't think we're all gonna want it.
c) Not all new technology is so great.
Personally I think it would make a lot more sense to report on the AE "after" you spend some time on it. I could be wrong, but I believe that's the way motorcycle magazines recommend most new bikes.
Here's to hoping the AE is everything you hope it is. :drinks:
Damn dude! The rest?! Isn't one giant mistake bad enough?
"The Edsel...One of THE most collected cars from the late 50's/early 60's. The car was a marketing disaster. Overpricing, quality control and poor styling killed the Edsel, not technological problems."
Bottom line; new technology... and it still didn't make it, did it?
"The Buster Brown Xray shoe machine."
" I want some of what you're smoking."
Read your history books. Believe it or not, years ago the xray shoe machine was a "new" technology. Unfortunately it had a tendency to create radiation poisioning.
"35 successful flying years with only 1 fatal accident."
Here's one more techie achievement that didn't continue, and struggled to stay financially afloat. Notice no one is making super-sonic passenger planes any more?
"Just what the heck is your point with the examples you provided?"
Simple! Your thread, "Electronic Shift, you're gonna want it!"
Points are:
a) Since you haven't driven it, you're guessing will like it.
B) If you want it, go for it, but don't think we're all gonna want it.
c) Not all new technology is so great.
Personally I think it would make a lot more sense to report on the AE "after" you spend some time on it. I could be wrong, but I believe that's the way motorcycle magazines recommend most new bikes.
Here's to hoping the AE is everything you hope it is. :drinks:
RadioHowie
I Miss Beemerdons!
My point here is the design of the Titanic didn't sink it. Running it into an iceberg did. And the technology wasn't what killed over 1500 people. It was the lack of sufficient numbers of lifeboats.
Where's the rap on technology? It was simply a new model of car that bombed due to poor marketing, poor styling and poor workmanship. It's happened before, it's happened since. A more telling argument would have been if you'd used the Corvair as an example, but I guess 40 odd years of Volkswagens and Porsches with air cooled engines and swing axle transmissions would have proved you wrong, huh?
I'm giving you half a point on this one. I never heard of an xray shoe machine until today. but the limited research I just did (ain't Google wonderful) indicates a technology in use from the early '20s through at least 1970. 50 years of use kind of blows your "unnecessary technology" argument, and I can't seem to find any statistics backing up your assessment the machines "create radiation poisoning."
Oh please...there is ongoing research and development underway right now for continued commercial SST ventures. A French/Japanese joint venture. Sukhoi, Lockheed/Martin, Boeing -- all committed to continue the study of SST flight.
Look again, Sparky. This is fjrpilot1945's thread. Not mine. My you do jump to incorrect conclusions.
A- I don't personally give a rat's *** if anyone, or everyone, likes it. That's Yamaha's problem, not mine.
B- See a) above, substituting "wants" for "likes"
C- I never once said, nor implied, it was. But, unlike you, I didn't cobble up an argument based on questionable examples to attack new technology.
I'm doing no more than anyone else in these non-stop AE threads. I'm speculating on it's operation. Not once have I said it's better than, or will replace, the current state of technology. However, I have pointed out that dismissing it because it IS new technology is rank Luddism, plain and simple.
You've shown us you're capable of that innumerable times.
Would these be the same magazines, one of which recently place the FJR dead last out of 5 Sport Touring bikes tested, because the sound of the motor "lacked character"?
Yeah...that's what I'm gonna base MY purchase on...some pinhead author who likes the sound of a V4 over an Inline4.
See a) above, this time substituting "hope" for "likes".
Will I purchase an AE? Probably. In a couple of years. Heck, I just got my '04, so I'm in no big hurry to switch. Is the AE concept a risk? Hell yeah -- just look at the incessant "scooter" insults being passed around here. God forbid someone buys one, then has a wreck for ANY reason...you KNOW the autoclutch will be blamed.
tripletango
Well-known member
I just came back from the UK. Apart from full MotoGP coverage with Randy Mamola on Eurosport TV for Friday Saturday and Sunday -- what a Joy! There was an an announcement of the new Honda DN-01 V twin 680cc fully automatic with CVT type tranny.
It looks really good, not much like a scooter.
https://www.motorcyclenews.com/nav?page=mot...=NEWS_NEW-BIKES
Also a neat new fairing and bag kit for the new FZ1. Now that would be one hell of a SPORT tourer with an R1 engine and 150 plus HP. Makes me thing twice about my order for an AS.
Off on my 05 up the Nashville Trace on Thursday. Looking forward to getting back on my FJR!
It looks really good, not much like a scooter.
https://www.motorcyclenews.com/nav?page=mot...=NEWS_NEW-BIKES
Also a neat new fairing and bag kit for the new FZ1. Now that would be one hell of a SPORT tourer with an R1 engine and 150 plus HP. Makes me thing twice about my order for an AS.
Off on my 05 up the Nashville Trace on Thursday. Looking forward to getting back on my FJR!
mastercaster
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you go RadioHowie!!!!! :clap: :clap: :fan: :clap: :clap:
meosborn
Well-known member
I just thought that I would throw in my thoughts and see if I get jumped.
I think that epoche probably meant was that the AE doesn't have a clutch lever since it has been covered at length that it has an electronically servo-controlled clutch. And while I agree that Yamaha must have gotten it figured out so that an AE can start and stop decently, I wonder how it will work. Just engaging and disengaging a clutch isn't all there is too it. When I just want to putt around town I let the clutch out slowly and when I want to get on it I let it out quite a bit quicker. I wonder how the bike will know what I want to do? That will be a neat trick.
It sounds to me like this new set-up will work a lot like the sequential shifting tranmissions that are out there in some of the nicer cars available. Now, of course most of those (if not all, I don't know) are automatics and the AE isn't. I wonder what difference that will make in the feel of the shifts.
IMO, the sequential shifting transmission that I tried out (VW Jetta) seems to be better than a plain automatic but not anywhere near as satisfying as a real manual. My main reason for that is the lack of control of the clutch. I just wonder if that might be the same thing with the AE.
Now, I don't think that the AE set-up is meant as a replacement for the standard clutch set-up (otherwise, why would the offer the A model?) anymore than an automatic is a replacement for a manual. Just different bikes for different people.
For me, I will be sticking with my '03 mainly because I can't afford a new bike right now. But on top of that the AE seems to be the answer to a question that I never asked. I like the clutch. Why would I want to get rid of it?
Maybe someday I will get to try riding an AE and find the answer to that question.
I think that epoche probably meant was that the AE doesn't have a clutch lever since it has been covered at length that it has an electronically servo-controlled clutch. And while I agree that Yamaha must have gotten it figured out so that an AE can start and stop decently, I wonder how it will work. Just engaging and disengaging a clutch isn't all there is too it. When I just want to putt around town I let the clutch out slowly and when I want to get on it I let it out quite a bit quicker. I wonder how the bike will know what I want to do? That will be a neat trick.
It sounds to me like this new set-up will work a lot like the sequential shifting tranmissions that are out there in some of the nicer cars available. Now, of course most of those (if not all, I don't know) are automatics and the AE isn't. I wonder what difference that will make in the feel of the shifts.
IMO, the sequential shifting transmission that I tried out (VW Jetta) seems to be better than a plain automatic but not anywhere near as satisfying as a real manual. My main reason for that is the lack of control of the clutch. I just wonder if that might be the same thing with the AE.
Now, I don't think that the AE set-up is meant as a replacement for the standard clutch set-up (otherwise, why would the offer the A model?) anymore than an automatic is a replacement for a manual. Just different bikes for different people.
For me, I will be sticking with my '03 mainly because I can't afford a new bike right now. But on top of that the AE seems to be the answer to a question that I never asked. I like the clutch. Why would I want to get rid of it?
Maybe someday I will get to try riding an AE and find the answer to that question.
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LiquidSilver
Well-known member
Gr8eyes,
That Jamie James R1 has a powershifter, not an automatic clutch. Big, big difference.
I like technology...
until it makes something heavier and slower... like a new windows operating system. :dribble:
or like a Honda ST1300. :blink:
That Jamie James R1 has a powershifter, not an automatic clutch. Big, big difference.
I like technology...
until it makes something heavier and slower... like a new windows operating system. :dribble:
or like a Honda ST1300. :blink:
roadrash
Well-known member
Ever try driving around town 10 hours a day in L.A. traffic every day on a bike.
Oh, I drove the new vette with paddel shifting and it was a blast the shifting from gear to gear was positive and was faster than I could shift with a manual shiffter maybe the fjr will be the same.
:dribble:
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C
Centerline
Guest
I don't need no stinking computer to shift.
I don't need no stinking computer nothin'
I don't need no computer to feed fuel, I want a carbuerator...that's what they have on MOTORCYCLES.
I don't need no computer designed aluminum frame. I prefer OCC tube steel crap.
Real motorcycles don't have no computer and wind tunnel designed fairings.
Real motorcycles don't have electric starters, the list goes on and on....
That said, I don't want no AE shift tho..
the marketplace will decide.
I don't need no stinking computer nothin'
I don't need no computer to feed fuel, I want a carbuerator...that's what they have on MOTORCYCLES.
I don't need no computer designed aluminum frame. I prefer OCC tube steel crap.
Real motorcycles don't have no computer and wind tunnel designed fairings.
Real motorcycles don't have electric starters, the list goes on and on....
That said, I don't want no AE shift tho..
the marketplace will decide.
Colin24
IBA# 446
Is it time yet to nominate the AE Feature on '06 FJR's for inclusion in the Never-Ending Pointless Recurring Threads forum?
Wouldn't that negate your post?
I think the new 06 fully automatic trans FJR is going to be great. Put it in Drive 1 or Drive 2 and just go .No shifting reqired , YES ! Also it will be nice to put it in reverse and slam it into Drive to really break the tires loose . How often does the trans fluid have to be changed on the 06 ? Will I need a trans cooler if I pull a trailer or gain weight ? Love the Yamamatic
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