ENGINE Repair Decision

[dcarver]

With today's prices and availability of used FJRs, NO WAY would I do a valve job. As mentioned above, pick up a complete head off a parted-out wreck, or buy an engine, or buy another bike.

If you were racing the bike it would be different. You're not.

Sadly, I agree. Mike, if you are not happy with current conditions, I do know a great tech with fjr experience (5-star Yama) in my hood. Independent now, and he's had the head off KrZy8 when carbonization occurred. Replacing it for him is a no-brainer and relatively cheap money for you.
You do have options. When I thought KrZy8 was terminal, I actually was thinking of how cool it was that used, low mileage, pristine FJR's were available for cheap money and to think of all the spare parts I would have...

 

[Jogle]

Enough already whats the verdict Mike? :dribble:

 

[Uncle Mike]

(I took that to mean they should be, like, looser). It was definitely running on just three cylinders.

("shimming the valves" or some other mechanical jargon), ....

Hey, Mike.....greetings from YAM (yet another Mike!)

I take it from a number of your comments that you're not a mechanical wizard (no offense intended....you probably crank out a mean spreadsheet!).....but here's my 2 cents.

I'd combine the wisdom of the guys who said "find a local mechanic". A dealer's rate will be three or four times that of many competent wrenches who may know just about as much as you need to swap out a motor.

And yes, that's the other have of MY two cents: like many other's said, find a wrecker who's got an engine from an insurance write-off (front end crumpling and some end-over-end body mods will write 'em off quickly these days without doing much if any engine damage) and have your friendly, under-employed bike engine genius pop in in for you.

For starters, you need to find an engine and a real friendly/smart mechanic who works cheap. (don't know if I'm allowed to say this cause I'm new, but here goes: Zdeno's is one of the largest bike wreckers in North America. I have no affiliation with them at all.....but they're in my old hometown of Kitchener. If they don't have a motor for you..they'll know who does. Talk to Angie or Al....or their daughter. 1 866 781-2826, or if the 866 doesn't work from down there, 519-745-7010.

See https://www.zdenocycle.ca/en/index.spy and click on "Salvage Parts". They've been in the business 40 years. (Almost as long as I've been riding.

Good luck.....and be sure to let us know how you make out.

All the best,

Uncle Mike

 

[escapefjrtist]

Gotta agree with most everyone here SacMike. No way you can put $3000 in a bike that's barely worth $5000 stripped of all your farkles. Go the used head / engine route.

Good luck!

--G

 

[03silverbullet]

Get a used engine from a salvage yard.

I have had good experiences with these guys - https://www.ranchomotorcycle.com/default.htm and they are local to you

 

[SacramentoMike]

Wow! I just checked this thread for the first time. Great replies. Thank you all. It really does sound like I'd save money with going either the replacement engine or the head rebuild route, but the honest truth is I'm REALLY not a mechanical whiz, as Uncle Mike guessed. (Shrewd feller.) I'm awful nervous about getting in way deeper than my comfort zone. That's part of what I'd be paying the dealership for, I guess.

So here are some of the many questions concerning the apparent consensus I'm getting here. How do you find a good used engine? How do you know the used engine you found is good? And do I need a Gen I engine? (I'd be guessing "yes," which increases the dangers in buying a used one, I'd further guess.) How do you know the shade tree mechanic you're dealing with is really competent? I know I got a recommendation from DC, and that's pretty good for me, but when you really don't know, you're cautious. No offense, Don.

Roseville Yama has always treated me pretty well, and I trust them. I talked to them about this issue--the part about not having the valve check done--and I do believe Zac talked to me about it at least once. Maybe he didn't shake me by the lapels and insist on my doing it, but I do have a recollection of the conversation, now that he basically reminded me of it. Being "not a mechanical whiz," as pointed out before, I confess to not recognizing the importance or necessity of getting this thing done. I have to take responsibility for this. As for Bobby J's in Albuquerque, AJ is completely right. They got it running, got me back on the road, as requested, and got me home--with warnings about getting it in for a full diagnosis. Anyway, it's all water under the bridge; now I have to decide what to do right now. So maybe it's not really "desperate," but it's still a pretty big decision.

I know it's a lot of dough to put out, but the dealership route offers the security of being able to come back if there are problems, and a good record with me and with lots of local folks--and forumites. The other way is just damn scary for me: millions of questions and uncertainties. I'm still listening if you have more thoughts to share, and thanks to you all.

 

[Uncle Mike]

1. How do you find a good used engine?

2. How do you know the used engine you found is good?

3. And do I need a Gen I engine?

4. How do you know the shade tree mechanic you're dealing with is really competent?

5. Roseville Yama has always treated me pretty well, and I trust them......

I know it's a lot of dough to put out, but......

6. ...the dealership route offers the security of being able to come back if there are problems.

7. The other way is just damn scary for me: millions of questions and uncertainties.

8. I'm still listening if you have more thoughts to share, and thanks to you all.

OK, here goes......

1. You ask the guy you're buying it from; that "wrecker" we're talking about. Go to the biggest shop you can find. They'll have the biggest selection.....AND the biggest reputation on the line when picking a good engine for you.

2. You trust the guy in #1. If he's been in the business for 10 or 20 years.....HE'LL know what's good or bad....and give you some kind of "assurance". (Like return or exchange privileges).

3. You need the same engine you're pulling out...plain and simple. Give the wrecker your bike's name, rank and serial #.

4. Mechanics are like wallpaper hangers and wedding planners....they all have references. Get some.

5. That's what they're counting on. (Not that that's a BAD thing...but that's how they get away with the $95-$125 per hr shop charge. Do you KNOW their shop rate? Just out of curiosity?)

6. Sometimes yes..........sometimes no. Get, in writing, the "assurance/guarantee" that you THINK dealing with the dealer "implies".......IN WRITING, beforehand.

7. What's the worst that could happen. As someone else said "It's a learning experience." (AND you've got your Sherpa guiding you..in the form of Mr. Shadetree!)

8. Yes, do keep looking here. Someone will inspire you, for sure!

Again, good luck!

 

[azitlies]

Mike,

there's *unknowns* either way you go. A dealership route can potentially end up in problems that they eventually deny were their fault, and that you have to pay more to have *that* fixed.

Another thing to try, ask your dealership if they'd install a used engine? And they might even be talked into helping you find one? Another thing they should be able to help you with is the GenII fit a GenI bike? One of their mechanics should know for sure.

The basic thing with buying a used engine would be to find one where the bike had low miles, and the wreck didn't affect the engine. Most of the crashes are gonna be front or rear. If it's low sided, you'd still have the parts from the old engine to fix that.

I'd lean on the dealership for help. Explain you would not hold them to anything other then "they installed the engine". Just explain that the amount of money to fix the old one, and how much the bike is worth makes it prohibitive.

If you do need to go with a third party mechanic. Find out their credentials, work with bikes and fjr's in particular. Keep in mind trust is a part of any of these deals. A mechanic doesn't want their reputation ruined by screwing up a job, especially a local shop that doesn't need bad word of mouth going on.

Honestly, taking an engine out and reinstalling isn't a horribly difficult job. A decent mechanic should do it in less then a day would be my guess.

good luck with it.

 

[James Burleigh]

Sell the piece of sh*t and get one of these.

You're welcome.

 

[Warchild]

Original title adjusted to reduce concerns.

 

[FastJoyRide]

If you have the time Mike, take it to Carver's independent mechanic and have him do the head (assuming the total cost would be <$2K?)

You know your bike, you have it set up the way you like it, as a non-wrench it may be out of your comfort zone to even just uninstall all your farkles and reinstall them on a replacement bike?

Going the new-to-you Gen 1 route you would inherit a whole host of potential risk as someone(s) else has owned that bike for 6 years: they may have neglected maintenance to an extent far beyond you, they may have "rode it like they stole it", they may have crashed it and repaired only the cosmetics to the point of being able to sell it, etc., etc.

With your bike you know what you've got. It sucks to get this big a "fine" for missing one valve check, especially when so many of us have had more than 50K of service without needing any valve adjustment, but don't compound your mistake!

YMMV

 

[marcusorelius]

Hope ya can can it fixed at a reasonable cost! Mechanics have told me a bike with out of whack valve clearances will be harder to start, was this true before your calamatie?

 

[HotRodZilla]

If you're gonna go the new engine route, I know a couple things.

Gen 2 engine will not interface with the Gen I electronics. You gotta use a Gen I.

PM Howie and Patriot as they both went through the "find a reliable engine" game. I remember them having problems related to "complete" engines and the correct engines. I also remember leak down tests and things being done.

Talk to those guys. They already fought your fight. They'll have some great info!

 

[Patriot]

I'm told and understand my experience with getting my bike back on the road 5 months after my CCT and my neglect grenaded my '04 engine at 96k mi is very fortunate.

This was July '09 busted and first ride Dec 6th.

I am fortunate to have a very experienced independent shop 100mi away who pulls engines all the time. When I've gone there with friends, there are Harley, Goldwing, and crotch rocket engines on the bench, and young Aaron is a dedicated speed guy racing bikes and corvettes.

His Dad ownes the shop in the countryside of Mississippi, and they charge $50 an hr.

They offered to find me a reliable engine by putting the word out to their past contacts on a nationwide salvage system for an engine that proved unsuccessful over 4 weeks.

I looked on ebay and spotted an '05 salvaged engine from an accident. It was the cheapest I found at $600 shipped. The other 3 advertised were $1000. This seller had excellent feedback on 4 engines sold (for other bikes) in the previous 90 days. The owner advertised his phone # and I called him with my concerns and other nightmares on "bad" engines purchased by forum member Ionbeam. He was gruff & impatient with me pointing out his feedback , thousands of parts sold, and multiple engines. He said frequently engines are stripped of the starter, stator, clutch to be sold separately. He sells complete engines less the fuel injection. He pointed out he runs the engines he sells before pulling them from the frame and videos that testing for his records and to protect himself. He reluctantly offered to email the video and that the crunched bike was a recent purchase and engine still in the frame. It was a frontal crash with forks bent back to the radiator. Claimed miles was 10k.

On this, I purchased the engine and had it shipped to the shop in MS. He said it was tricky with ebay not shipping merchandise to the address on record.

Then, providing a shop manual to Aaron, I dropped off the bike. Aaron admitted never working specifically on a FJR, but lots of experience with R1'S & FZ1'S. hh showed no hesitation, but had no idea how long it would take. Repeated the commitment to have it done right, not fast. He took extreme pride in his work.

It was done perfectly with no, none, nada issues from the day it was delivered.

I'm amazed to this day. Charge: 12 hrs x $50 = $600 labor.

I deeply am thankful for all this and deeply hope it could be repeated by others.

plus engine @ $600 = $1200. I provided all fluids, filters, plugs to them.

All the advice I recieved was NOT to consider fixing the engine for all the unknowns attached, but to either replace the bike, possibly parting out the bike. But first look into replacing the engine.

In my case, the trauma of pistons going into valves made damages to the engine potentially extensive.

I really hope this helps.

my threads: https://www.fjrforum.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=123064

https://www.fjrforum.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=124314

ponderings of head repair: https://www.fjrforum.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=121357

 

[Bounce]

Can someone remember to link to this thread the next time someone starts going off on how factory service intervals aren't worth bothering with?

I can't count the number of times someone's gone on about how valve checks are expensive and not needed because someone else got lucky when skipping them. When it's you that's affected, it's 100%.

There's a wealth of good advise in this thread. Best of luck with whatever choice you make.

 

[ionbeam]

You know your bike and its history. Overall vehicle maintenance is suspect, what else has been neglected that might fail? If the glitch in maintenance was only the valve adjustment then you should still have a good and reliable rolling platform in need of a good engine. I would repair the bike long before replacing it. Replacing your current ride would make sense only if you could get a really good price from someone for your un-rideable motorcycle or if you take the time to aggressively part out the entire bike and sell every last part on it. Our FJRs are still fairly young at 50k miles (and it should be paid for).

Unlike us bombers - Patriot, Howie and me that crushed the valves and perhaps damaged the bottom engine rotating parts, your damage is confined to the cylinder head and nothing else. Replacing the cylinder head is pricy but work wise about the same as fixing a ticker. Your existing cylinder head can have new guides, seals and valve seats installed and then reuse it. New valves and springs aren't that expensive (in the bigger picture). A new cylinder head is ~$1k without valves, springs, keepers, cams, bearings, etc. You know how often the oil was changed, you know how hard the engine has been flogged and you know if it pops out of 2nd gear on hard acceleration. All things being equal, I would opt to fix the known rather than wade into the great unknown of a used engine. Patriot and Howie went the used engine way and have had no problems. I went the 'repair your own engine' way and I've had no problems.

One big, big, big factor is warranty. If you buy a used engine, install it and in 1-3 months find a serious problem, can you get your money back? Who will pay to remove the engine and pay to have it shipped back? Now you are faced with paying for another engine and paying to have it installed. If you have your engine repaired what kind of warranty will your mechanic offer? The dealer I chose to use guaranteed my engine to "Be as good as or better than new" when he finished working on it. 'Better than new' means that they essentially balanced and blueprinted my engine as they went through it. There was a glitch due to the extreme disassemble that took place and the Factory Service Manual neglecting to have complete information about alignment marks. The dealer was good to his word and on his own dime did extensive work to meet the letter of his warranty. Too bad there was a problem but good that he volunteered to do the work without arm twisting, name calling and heated words, he simply said to leave it with him and he would stop everything in the shop and get my bike done.

You may want to go though this entire thread, I'll warn you it's long but here is some meat to chew on to help understand the Repair or Replace conundrum.

 

[HIGHLANDER]

I stopped by Fremont Cycle Salvage at lunch as it's close by, they have a 2003 motor with 600 miles for $800. It's been sitting a "couple" years they say. Doesn't even have enough miles to determine if it's a ticker or not.

They also have a salvage titled 06 with 28,000 miles for $4,800, needs a new nose cone though, cracked at the mirror mount on the right side, but it's barely a few bucks more than your $3,000 rebuilt head.

Just thought I'd through those out there for the data base on your options.

 

[azitlies]

I stopped by Fremont Cycle Salvage at lunch as it's close by, they have a 2003 motor with 600 miles for $800. It's been sitting a "couple" years they say. Doesn't even have enough miles to determine if it's a ticker or not.

They also have a salvage titled 06 with 28,000 miles for $4,800, needs a new nose cone though, cracked at the mirror mount on the right side, but it's barely a few bucks more than your $3,000 rebuilt head.

Just thought I'd through those out there for the data base on your options.

wow! 600 miles on it for 800 bucks! Down for 2 years? no problem... first time you fire it up will run the rats right the hell out of it!! hahahahahah

that sounds like an awesome deal for sure! good find.

 

[Fred W]

I'm having a hard time understanding how your engine burned up some valves in only 50k miles (not even time for the second valve check yet).

I've performed both of my own valve checks and the valve clearances haven't budged a bit. And I don't do anything extraordinary or special to prolong the engine's life other than regular 5k mile oil changes with plain old Rotella Dino oil. I smell something fishy. You have been changing the oil, haven't you? Any other extenuating circumstances that you can recall?

FWIW - The valves have to be a long way out of spec before they will burn up due to tight clearances.

 

[TomInPA]

Fred, could this happen with a lean mixture? Say if the air filter and or exhaust was too free-flowing with no fuel controller?

Don't get me wrong, that is a speculative question. As far as I know, Mike's bike is fully stock in that regard.