ENGINE Repair Decision

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...FWIW - The valves have to be a long way out of spec before they will burn up due to tight clearances.
Speculation: As the valve clearance(s) tighten up the exhaust valves open earlier allowing both the valve flute and the hardened seat to get really hot. Normal valve action will take the thin hot edge of the valve and hammer it into a tulip shape causing additional recession into the cylinder head which then rapidly takes the valve way out of spec. I can take a look and see if I can find a spare cylinder head and some valves just lying around ;) and drop the valves into the head. I had 2-3 valves that were recessed farther into the head that they should have been and they were within spec at first valve check. Not all valves will drop into the cylinder head because of the Pretzel Effect.

Edit: I guess I can just use a straight edge across the valve face and see if I can see/measure edge distortion.

ValvesSm.jpg


 
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I suppose so, but it would have had to be way out and should have had other drive-ability issues. I mean our engines run pretty darned lean in stock configuartion with no problems.

In any case, I do not believe that the problem was caused by lack of a valve clearance check.

 
Your Bike to have hammered the valves and destroyed the head is possible so is a little heartburn really a heart attack.

What was done to diagnose you needing a new head/engine?

If it didn't include a compression test and a leak down test, STOP and get it done right.

F.Y.I symptoms of tight valves,

The bike maybe hard staring, poor idle when cold, May hang up at high idle when coming down from speed, and the fuel econ will be poor. Other things on your bike may cause some or all of these. But the tell will be found in the comprestion test and a leak down test.

Just trying to help and save you some money, Knowage is power.

Alot of good info.

https://www.motorcyclecruiser.com/tech/easy_valve_adjustment/index.html

JimStan/ZEUS

 
Geesh Mickey! What a deal. I go away for a few months and come back and read our biker brother in NorCal, SactoMike, and his awesome'05 is on it's last leg.. er wheel. Sorry bud to hear of this bud.

Mike this is a real tuff (I know, just keep reading, but for you gramiracle types, tough. ok, happy?) decision. If you have the $$ and help to replace the motor, what a wild weekend (ok maybe longer) that will be. I'm afraid you $3K is a sunk cost. There is also selling your scoot taking the hit and buying a new to you Superior Gen1.

Other thoughts:

I do think JB's little suggestion was funny.

I also agree with a couple others about maybe the CCT going south, skipping a tooth, etc. They should have checked it and the cam to crank timing straight away.

Good luck my friend, and do NOT let OM help you, you'll have an electric motorcycle when you're done. ;)

 
I'm so confused.

Nowhere did you even mention the thought of simply purchasing a used "07.

Seems like the best way out to me. Regardless of cost, you're no longer associated with that God awful Blue.

Duh!

 
Well, thanks for THAT, anyway, Mark. Lots of helpful and even almost useful suggestions here, and thanks to all of you. All of the really tech-y ones, I grouped together and put aside for a time when I'm reincarnated into an actual mechanically-competent wrench head. The idea of pulling the head and sending it off to do something and then getting it put back in, making sure all the steps necessary to be done actually GET done, and getting it all buttoned up just perf is roughly equivalent to the idea of giving myself an appendectomy. I'm just not ready to be my own general contractor on a major, multiple-step project like this. I admire guys who can and do take on jobs like that; watched Nitrotate's 3-wheel Frankenbike come together with fascination, but do something like that (or this) myself? No, no I don't think so.

There are people who do this stuff, and do it all the time. You have to pay them, but you get to relax while they do it and then you get your bike back and it's good. Well, we hope. If you have some trust in them already, big big plus. I told Zac to go forward with the disassembly today, and he'll have the full diagnosis for me later in the week and then go on from there. Never happy to have to come up with this kind of cash unexpectedly, but what can I do? NOT have an FJR? :dribble: As Ionbeam said (and great post), I know my bike, and it was fine till now. I've done the maintenance (ok, HAD it done) as specified, with the glaring exception of doing that valve check. Still don't know why this happened, but it did, and I'll be happy just to have it fixed. Swallowed hard, and made the call. Next 50,000 miles due to start in about three weeks!

 
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I'm about as much of a wrench as Sacramento Mike, and I'm also one of those guys who mused about not doing valve checks. Only posting to underline the point: 26K miles isn't too often. I'm glad I did mine on schedule.

Sorry you are having trouble, Mike. Hope it works out. In your place, as long as your old one is running, I would probably just go to a dealer and trade my old one for a 2012. WBill

 
Well Mike, that's okay. I'd have to bet you read a lot of the comments very carefully. And that's what it's all about. We learn things this way, from others experience.

Maybe next time you'll consider other options with hard earned experience... but that's the way it happens for all of us!

best of luck with it!

 
Mike

Good luck with it. I still find it hard to believe that this is all the result of one neglected valve check. It would be the first time I had ever heard of an engine failure on an FJR due to a problem with valve clearance - especially if a regular maintenance schedule had been followed. Unless there was a manufacturing defect (soft cam lobes, defective casting, improper clearances to start with, etc.) or the engine was run without oil for a time, I can't imagine that the valves would be far enough out of spec to ruin the motor in 50,000 miles - or half that mileage if the initial valve check had been done.

I would be most interested in the diagnosis once your mechanic has had a chance to get it apart!!! I have to think it's something else.

I did my first valve check at 50,000 miles (all within spec). Maybe I got lucky (and you didn't).

Ross

 
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Mike

Good luck with it. I still find it hard to believe that this is all the result of one neglected valve check. It would be the first time I had ever heard of an engine failure on an FJR due to a problem with valve clearance - especially if a regular maintenance schedule had been followed. Unless there was a manufacturing defect (soft cam lobes, defective casting, improper clearances to start with, etc.) or the engine was run without oil for a time, I can't imagine that the valves would be far enough out of spec to ruin the motor in 50,000 miles - or half that mileage if the initial valve check had been done.

I would be most interested in the diagnosis once your mechanic has had a chance to get it apart!!! I have to think it's something else.

I did my first valve check at 50,000 miles (all within spec). Maybe I got lucky (and you didn't).

Ross
I am 100% with Ross on this one.

I do not believe for a minute that your problem is as a direct result of otherwise normal wear, and not having done a single valve clearance check, so don't beat yourself up over that. There was either some other defect that caused the accelerated valve wear (which could still have happened in the 26k miles between checks) or the cause is something else other than valve clearances.

I too am waiting to hear the final verdict after Zac gets it disassembled. From all prior information, he is a knowledgeable mechanic and he will give it a thorough diagnosis.

 
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There was either some other defect that caused the accelerated valve wear (which could still have happened in the 26k miles between checks) or the cause is something else other than valve clearances.
which routine checkups and early diagnosis may catch before it progresses too far to treat. -- your family Dr.

 
Mike,

Sorry you have to go through this.

If the Bike is in the shop, have them check out the Main Harness Connector.

When my Bike had a #4 Fouling Condition, it was found to be a Bad Throttlebody Assy (Rare).

Good Luck with you Least Expensive Fix...

 
One thing I forgot to add,

Check the Timing Chain orientation...

it sounds like it may have jumped a tooth or two

based on the scenario you have given.

 
There was either some other defect that caused the accelerated valve wear (which could still have happened in the 26k miles between checks) or the cause is something else other than valve clearances.
which routine checkups and early diagnosis may catch before it progresses too far to treat. -- your family Dr.
Carbonized valves not fully closing leading to death via heat and recession?
I think I'd go with these two comments. Random sudden valve problem in one cylinder would seem to be explained by the carbon deposits issue -- and this would hardly be the first time an FJR had problems with carbon deposits.

But I believe another point (about riding an ailing FJR) is implicit in both comments. Mike rode across the Nevada desert during the day on a hot day with the problem in evidence. That went on for several hundred (or more) miles. As ionbeam pointed out in post no.40, once you start having a heat created problem with valve seating, the erosion of seat and valve surface gets progressively worse fairly quickly.

Everything about this, from the missed valve clearance inspection to the possibility that carbon deposits prevented valves in the non-firing cylinder from closing, is compounded by this bike having been run in that condition, in the heat, until the seat-valve erosion was so bad that there was no combustion in that cylinder anymore. It's easier to get away with that sort of thing in an old VW than in a Ferrari, and this engine is closer to that of a Ferrari.

So, on top of the point that Bounce made earlier about this thread being a perfect example of why the maintenance schedule must be observed, maybe we should note that it's also a perfect example of why you don't run a bike that is limping any longer than is absolutely necessary to get it repaired. By the time this bike got to 'Zilla's mechanic, most, if not all the damage was already done. When Zac's guys get it apart, they're not going to see an engine that had just started missing (probably initially due to carbon deposits), they're going to see an engine that was hammered way past the time it started missing until the affected cylinder wouldn't run anymore. Maybe the initial carbon deposits are still there. Maybe they burned off around the time that the seats and valve surfaces had burned so far past spec that the resulting heat problem was in the accelerated damage phase.

Next time, truck the thing home in a U-Haul, have it carted to the nearest dealer, do anything other than limp it for hundreds or thousands of miles.

Really sorry you gotta go through this, Mike, but I'm glad you're on the way to getting your bike back with the problems fixed. Besides, we never learn a lesson well enough until it's learned the hard way. Hope you're riding again soon.

 
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A comment earlier in this thread speculated the repair would be similar to a ticker rebuild. I think that is probably true, and Zak has done a bunch of them. I would also agree with the comment, the resulting repair may be better than new (or wreck-replaced) engine parts.

 
Good points exskibum. Running a sick engine is seldom a good move.

I can agree with the hypothesis of carboned up valves: Now let's speculate on what would have happened if the valve check had been done at 26k. The valve clearances would have come up too loose due to the carbon build up on the valve faces (not too tight). If any shim adjustment was made it would have been to reduce the clearances.

Someone else recently asked about shimming his exhaust valves because they were at the upper limit of clearance. My advice was to not change the shims but instead to run some techron or ring free and then recheck them in 26k miles. I still go by that advice. I don't see how shimming down an increasing clearance would be a good idea since the most likely scenario is that added clearance is caused by carbon buildup.

Which brings me around to the question of whether a valve check at 26k miles would have revealed a carbon buildup type of problem.

Maybe if the mechanic was able to recognize that an increasing exhaust valve clearance (on an FJR1300) was likely due to carbon. But how many shop techs know that? How many would have just reshimmed it and not advised de-carbonizing? How many guys that do their own valve checks would know what to do in that circumstance?

 
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