Es Model worth the extra money?

[wheatonFJR]

Fred, you liking that ES?

 

[Fred W]

Yes, so far so good. I too am still fiddling and diddling with the suspension. But the bike as a whole is great.

 

[pcarnut]

There may be some overlap in those ranges, but the soft -3 on the one up preload setting is not the same as the soft -3 on the other three preload settings.

Hey Fred, this is news to me. In no way do I mean this be snarky, just curious, but how do you know this?

 

[Fred W]

That is a really good question. That was how I initially interpreted the suspension adjustment section in the owners manual, but I now think I may have been wrong.

Since you asked, I went back and reread that section. I now see that there may only be 21 total potential settings (3 times 7) for the damping, and that the SCU only remembers which of the 7 possible you have set for each of the three ranges (Normal, Hard and Soft) for that preload value. Plus it remembers which of the three you used the last time you were at that preload.

Surely though there must be 21 settings, right? You don't suppose that Soft 0 is the same exact damping as Normal 0 and Hard 0 do you? The manuals (both the owners and Factory Service Manual, which I also have) are vague enough that even that could be true.

 

[Ignacio]

That was how I initially interpreted the suspension adjustment section in the owners manual, but I now think I may have been wrong.....

Surely though there must be 21 settings, right? You don't suppose that Soft 0 is the same exact damping as Normal 0 and Hard 0 do you? The manuals (both the owners and Factory Service Manual, which I also have) are vague enough that even that could be true.

I think your most recent interpretation is closer to the truth.

There are 21 yes and I don't think 0 on each level is the same. But how that translates to the suspension may be 21 unique settings at the screen, but maybe maybe it's only 19 for example. Maybe Soft +3 is the same is Normal -3 and Hard -3 is the same as Normal +3...so some overlap.

I'm not able to tell down to that level of differences though personally. I wonder if one can take a multimeter to one of the electrical leads to the forks and maybe measure discreet values for each setting. I'm guessing the suspension pieces just receive electrical signal and don't have micorcontrollers in each receiving data.

 

[Fred W]

Yeah, that overlapping was what I was thinking about the preload ranges too, but who knows what the real deal is? They do not tell us enough about it anywhere that I can find to be sure.

They are stepper motors, so they need to return to a home or zero position and then step out X number of steps per the SCU program. We could probably figure this out with a long time base storage scope and count the pulses.

 

[ionbeam]

Yeah, that overlapping was what I was thinking about the preload ranges too, but who knows what the real deal is? They do not tell us enough about it anywhere that I can find to be sure.
They are stepper motors, so they need to return to a home or zero position and then step out X number of steps per the SCU program. We could probably figure this out with a long time base storage scope and count the pulses.

0000

0111

1111

Simple as 0001 0010 0011

 

[mcatrophy]

...Simple as 1000 0100 1100

Surely "Simple as 0001 0010 0011" ?

 

[ionbeam]

Surely "Simple as 0001 0010 0011" ?

True. High true. Someone must have put a failed hex on my post.

 

[mcatrophy]

Surely "Simple as 0001 0010 0011" ?

True. High true. Someone must have put a failed hex on my post.

Clever

 

[Fred W]

Too clever for me apparently...

0

E

F

is simple as 84C?

 

[AKjitsu]

I'm not myself all that interested in electric suspension. However, it's only a measly $1K at retail. And the actual long term cost may be little if any. The ES is obviously a whole lot more popular and one would expect that will translate at resale time.

 

[Fred W]

Understood. I was not initially interested nor intending an ES, pretty set on buying an "A", (if anything). But after riding (and appreciating) the suspension refinements on the ES, that $1k became trivial chump change.

My justification (after the fact) is that regardless of the ES adjustability, for that price difference you'll be getting the USD fork legs, which even if the electric adjustablilty goes tits up on them, you'll still have the mechanical advantage of the stout upper fork tubes. I'm sure something could/would be cobbed together to convert those motor drives to mechanically-adjustable should the need arise. And if it does, I would not be the only ape on that planet, I'm sure.

But, OTOH, if it does turn out to be reliable and long lasting, I'll look like a friggen genius scoring all that goodness for a measley thousand bux!

 

[Unleaded]

My justification (after the fact) is that regardless of the ES adjustability, for that price difference you'll be getting the USD fork legs, which even if the electric adjustablilty goes tits up on them, you'll still have the mechanical advantage of the stout upper fork tubes.

I wanted the USD fork tubes - for looks alone, I think they're worth it at the normal price difference, the ES being a bonus - but bought the A because the closeout price difference between the two was too great (for me) to justify. Having said that, I've read several places about the advantages of the heavier upper fork tubes of USD forks, and still can't seem to get the idea of how that matters into my thick skull. Torsional forces should be the same along the whole tube, so whether the thickest part is at the bottom or top shouldn't matter, right? Obviously, no, I'm not right....but I don't understand why. There would be a slight sprung/unsprung weight difference, but is that all? Explanations?

 

[mcatrophy]

Unsprung weight, strength where the leverage is highest? They immediately come to mind. And I know nothing about suspension.

 

[Fred W]

There may be some overlap in those ranges, but the soft -3 on the one up preload setting is not the same as the soft -3 on the other three preload settings.

Hey Fred, this is news to me. In no way do I mean this be snarky, just curious, but how do you know this?

That is a really good question. That was how I initially interpreted the suspension adjustment section in the owners manual, but I now think I may have been wrong.

Since you asked, I went back and reread that section. I now see that there may only be 21 total potential settings (3 times 7) for the damping, and that the SCU only remembers which of the 7 possible you have set for each of the three ranges (Normal, Hard and Soft) for that preload value. Plus it remembers which of the three you used the last time you were at that preload.

Surely though there must be 21 settings, right? You don't suppose that Soft 0 is the same exact damping as Normal 0 and Hard 0 do you? The manuals (both the owners and Factory Service Manual, which I also have) are vague enough that even that could be true.

I have located a credible resource, and it seems that my initial perception was correct. Each of the four rear preloads do equate to different damping ranges, though they certainly do seem to overlap.

Sorry, I am not at liberty to reveal from whence this information comes.

Have a gander at this...

 

[Unleaded]

Unsprung weight, strength where the leverage is highest? They immediately come to mind. And I know nothing about suspension.

That's what I was thinking, but whatever force is present at the top to turn the wheel, has to be present at the bottom to turn the wheel too....

I think. I'm no engineer.

 

[pcarnut]

There may be some overlap in those ranges, but the soft -3 on the one up preload setting is not the same as the soft -3 on the other three preload settings.

Hey Fred, this is news to me. In no way do I mean this be snarky, just curious, but how do you know this?

That is a really good question. That was how I initially interpreted the suspension adjustment section in the owners manual, but I now think I may have been wrong.

Since you asked, I went back and reread that section. I now see that there may only be 21 total potential settings (3 times 7) for the damping, and that the SCU only remembers which of the 7 possible you have set for each of the three ranges (Normal, Hard and Soft) for that preload value. Plus it remembers which of the three you used the last time you were at that preload.

Surely though there must be 21 settings, right? You don't suppose that Soft 0 is the same exact damping as Normal 0 and Hard 0 do you? The manuals (both the owners and Factory Service Manual, which I also have) are vague enough that even that could be true.

I have located a credible resource, and it seems that my initial perception was correct. Each of the four rear preloads do equate to different damping ranges, though they certainly do seem to overlap.

Sorry, I am not at liberty to reveal from whence this information comes.

Have a gander at this...

I originally had figured that soft was soft etc. regardless of the spring pre-load chosen but this would likely produce some very unbalanced handling the greater the pre-load. Based on the chart Yamaha appears to have compensated for this, thanks mom.

Hope this is true. Good discussion. Thanks Fred.

 

[mcatrophy]

Unsprung weight, strength where the leverage is highest? They immediately come to mind. And I know nothing about suspension.

That's what I was thinking, but whatever force is present at the top to turn the wheel, has to be present at the bottom to turn the wheel too....

I think. I'm no engineer.

Turning the bars is the least of the forces.
When you turn, you steer slightly the wrong way (counter-steer). If you're being gentle, the weight of the bike makes the bike lean into the corner.

If you're being forceful, this uses the grip of the front wheel to lever the bottom of the bike sideways about the centre of mass to make the bike lean into the turn.

That's a hell of a sideways force on a heavy bike to push it over. The sideways force is at the bottom, so the stress is highest near the top, that's where you need the most strength.

If the forks flex, things wiggle, doesn't feel so good.

That's my take.

 

[MCRIDER007]

I have located a credible resource, and it seems that my initial perception was correct. Each of the four rear preloads do equate to different damping ranges, though they certainly do seem to overlap.

Sorry, I am not at liberty to reveal from whence this information comes.

Have a gander at this...

After several hundred tests of different settings on different preload settings, I think that chart is pure marketing hype....which is a nice way of saying its crap. The damping adjustment range for any given preload setting is very narrow and while there may be some overlap between the two solo settings and the two 2-up settings, there doesn't seem to be any overlap between solo with luggage and 2-up.

I find the STD-0 on the solo preload gives the most plush ride but I cannot seem to duplicate that setting anywhere on the solo plus luggage preload setting. Likewise, the STD-0 setting on the solo plus luggage preload cannot be duplicated anywhere on the 2-up preload setting. All seat of the pants impressions of course but I can't see any reason to have settings with as much overlap as the chart suggests.

I'm also very skeptical that the fork damping settings change at all except for the base preload settings. If they do, I sure can't feel it but it does seem possible that one could fine turn the fork damping by raising the motor position in the fork cap....which really doesn't seem necessary since the fork damping always feels right.