Ethanol versus regular gas fuel mileage test

[Ignacio]

Little tips folks: If you say something like, "not trying to get off on a rant", "sorry to hijack and besides motorcycles.....", or "not to get political"....................you almost surely are.

Last chance. I suggest keeping it technical.

Thanks.

The Management

 

[FJRay]

Little tips folks: If you say something like, "not trying to get off on a rant", "sorry to hijack and besides motorcycles.....", or "not to get political"....................you almost surely are.

Last chance. I suggest keeping it technical.

Thanks.

The Management

I totally understand boss. My main question is , What else can ethanol be produced from??? and can that type of ethanol be used for motor fuel???? If so then maybe the price of corn flakes and whiskey can be reduced. That would be a good thing

 

[Karl]

We don't have a choice in California, but it is hard to imagine the "clean-air" mandated formulas with alcohol accomplish anything with a loss of efficiency like that, and the greater evaporative pollution of ethanol

I have to pay for the ethanol yet get zero benefit. We do not import less fuel as a result, and air pollution is increased. Makes no sense.

Nope, doesn't make any sense

Well, air quality has improved since the advent of oxygenated fuels.

Adding ethanol to gasoline helps reduce the U.S. reliance on foreign oil, then --

Add to that: motor oil with the API/ILSAC Starburst lower viscosity; and 2011 and all future GM gas powered vehicles, a semi-synthetic engine oil will be required; and modern I.C. engines with increased low-friction design/constuction -- then apply all that to the hundreds of millions of autos running around America every day (our modern version of public transportation) and you have a few less oil-tankers coming from the Middle East every day.

Air quality has only improved when measuring what the EPA mandates (HC/CO/NOX). What is not measured is the significant increase in aldehyde (formaldehyde and acetaldehyde) concentrations from burning ethanol. Both known carcinogens.

E10 has not decreased the amount of imported crude either. What do you think the tractors run on, and the fertilizers are made from? It takes more BTU to produce a gallon of ethanol than it contains. How is that "renewable"? You get 10-12% lower mileage which means the fed and local tax revenues increase 10-12% because they get paid by the gallon. Sold to the public with the promise of cleaner air which is a farce, but what politician would vote against cleaner air? Even though it makes no sense thermodynamically, as enery policy, or environmentally. And so it goes.

 

[Ron strand]

Just got back from Casper(again) and ran over and back on E10 with a swig of Seafoam at every fill. Just to keep myself honest I set the computer on air temp on all three runs and did not look at the avg mpg until I pulled in for the final fill. First of all the bike ran great throughout this last trip. It was smooth and ran very nice. That is why I was surprised to see my avg mpg at the end of the last trip right at 39.1 mpg. At least it was consistent with the first run on ethanol. I am happy to say that this is the last trip I plan on making to Casper,Wyo for a very long time. The weather was nice on all three days and the wind didn't try to blow me into the sagebrush like it usually does in Wyo.

 

[Fred W]

"Why oh why did I ever ride Wyoming?"

 

[HaulinAshe]

We've resorted to purchasing 100 Low-lead (AvGas) for all the racing bikes, because all reasonably available local sources for pure gasoline have disappeared.

The average hours between rebuilds when using AvGas is 3x, YES 3x!!!, that of motors running any grade of pump gas.

Why does that matter to us, you ask...??? Because the FJR uses the same metallurgy and valve technology as most of the Yamaha race bikes still in production today.

From both a mechanical and economic standpoint, I'd love to see Ethanol disappear tomorrow. For now, I'm trying to find a reasonable way to carry pre-measured "shots" of fuel additive that could be dropped in the FJR tank with every fillup at the pumps.

 

[RossKean]

We've resorted to purchasing 100 Low-lead (AvGas) for all the racing bikes, because all reasonably available local sources for pure gasoline have disappeared.

The average hours between rebuilds when using AvGas is 3x, YES 3x!!!, that of motors running any grade of pump gas.

Why does that matter to us, you ask...??? Because the FJR uses the same metallurgy and valve technology as most of the Yamaha race bikes still in production today.

From both a mechanical and economic standpoint, I'd love to see Ethanol disappear tomorrow. For now, I'm trying to find a reasonable way to carry pre-measured "shots" of fuel additive that could be dropped in the FJR tank with every fillup at the pumps.

I used to have a Roadstar and for some reason, it liked Marvel Mystery Oil in the gas - about 2 ounces per fillup, or perhaps every second fillup. It really seemed to quiet the top end a lot. I used to fill a few 50 mL screw cap polypropylene tubes with the magic elixir and take them with me whenever I did a road trip. These were great and held just the right amount. (I work in a chemistry lab and have hundreds of these around). I have been thinking about carrying some shots of Seafoam in them. I have tried the MMO on the FJR but never thought that it made much difference. I don't know whether Seafoam really helps the FJR but I use some from time to time anyway.

Regarding the original post, I have never carried out a controlled experiment but I am under the impression that mileage is definately worse with the E-10 and also feel that the low-RPM snatchy throttle is more problematic when running gasoline spiked with corn.

Ross

 

[Bungie]

Don't tell anybody but...

A few times a year I use Lucas Fuel Treatment. When it goes on sale up here I'll buy a couple of the small bottles (fits nicely in my saddlebag) and give it about an ounce every fill-up. A small bottle last 5 fill-ups. The bottles are small enough that eyeballing an once is simple.

The bike seems to love it. Engine related vibes are quelled WAY down, injector and valve train noise is reduced. Kind of like the way your car or bike runs on a foggy night. Probably the same reason to. Slightly slower, progressive combustion. On a further note, when I had my bike in the for the tick fix, the mechanic (whose done 5 or 6 FJR Tickers) said he's never seen an engine as clean as mine was inside - and thats with 60Km on it.

That being said, I tried some seafoam in the lil ***** (my 94 Ninja 250) for the first time. That stuff is remarkable. A tank of that with me running the piss out of the bike really made a noticeable difference in the bike (the valve adjust and carb sync didn't hurt either!). I still need to yank the carbs because I'm sure at this point the pilot jet/circuit needs some TLC that Seafoam can't fix.

As for the E10, my last tank in the FJR running at 50mph for the whole thing (what a boring ride!) netted 62mpg (UK). I ran down to the sport bike rally today running 65-75mph the whole way and the bike still pulled down 58mpg with a trip at (whips out the calculator..) 245 miles on the tank.

 

[LAF]

We've resorted to purchasing 100 Low-lead (AvGas) for all the racing bikes, because all reasonably available local sources for pure gasoline have disappeared.

The average hours between rebuilds when using AvGas is 3x, YES 3x!!!, that of motors running any grade of pump gas.

Why does that matter to us, you ask...??? Because the FJR uses the same metallurgy and valve technology as most of the Yamaha race bikes still in production today.

From both a mechanical and economic standpoint, I'd love to see Ethanol disappear tomorrow. For now, I'm trying to find a reasonable way to carry pre-measured "shots" of fuel additive that could be dropped in the FJR tank with every fillup at the pumps.

I gave up on the shot method. I just carry my big ol bottle of Marine Stabil and squeeze a 1/2 oz into the measure side and dump it in. 1/2 oz for 5 gallons 1 oz to 10 for the lucky Franken Tanks running out there.

My friend just got his ATV back from Yamaha as the needle valves and carburetor was trashed even though it ran till the moment it died and would not restart. They recommended Star Tron or Marine Stabil on EVERY tank to avoid it on the ATV. That leads me to believe any Yamaha product should be using something to fight ethanol. They have a 55 gallon drum of Star Tron that they mix into EVERY boat/bike/atv/jet ski they have for sale.

I see someone came up with a small dosing solution but I am sure you are going to pay through the nose for the convenience. Bag it, for 20 bucks I can treat 320 gallons, I just have to carry a big ol bottle around with me.

 

[phroenips]

...even though it ran till the moment it died and would not restart.

I hate it when engines stop running before they die.

 

[Fred W]

My friend just got his ATV back from Yamaha as the needle valves and carburetor was trashed even though it ran till the moment it died and would not restart. They recommended Star Tron or Marine Stabil on EVERY tank to avoid it on the ATV.

I fail to see how running oxygenated fuel would wear out the needle valves in a carburetor. What are they made of? Butter? Seems like a convenient excuse for a shop that just didn't want to (or couldn't!) repair the carbs, to me.

For better or worse, we have nothing else available in the Northeast US other than E10 for the past, what... decade now? We do not see all of the evils being purported. Yeah your mileage may be down. But not by 10%. If the ethanol is 10% of the fuel, it should be down by a few percent at most since alcohol has fewer BTUs of energy as compared to gasoline.

 

[LAF]

My friend just got his ATV back from Yamaha as the needle valves and carburetor was trashed even though it ran till the moment it died and would not restart. They recommended Star Tron or Marine Stabil on EVERY tank to avoid it on the ATV.

I fail to see how running oxygenated fuel would wear out the needle valves in a carburetor. What are they made of? Butter? Seems like a convenient excuse for a shop that just didn't want to (or couldn't!) repair the carbs, to me.

For better or worse, we have nothing else available in the Northeast US other than E10 for the past, what... decade now? We do not see all of the evils being purported. Yeah your mileage may be down. But not by 10%. If the ethanol is 10% of the fuel, it should be down by a few percent at most since alcohol has fewer BTUs of energy as compared to gasoline.

It was the diaphragms and some other rubber parts that were shot, but the needle valves were mentioned that they were in need of replacement, and were. Ethanol related or not on the needle valves I cant say but if there was rubber degradation it could not have been good for the needle valves.

Thing was it was running fine and while we were running it to the wood pile it just died and would not restart. It had run flawlessly all year and all that day, and then went **** up in a heart beat.

As far as my thing with Ethanol is not it's BTU output or anything else related to it that is my biggest *****, it is that manufacturers are not building the motors to the fuel supply. If they were using Viton instead of good ol rubber then I could learn to swallow as long as I had some gum afterwards. But that is not the case. So when the worst happens we as consumers are left holding the bag. Any fuel can be made to work on a motor, the motor just has to be set up and built for it. Who was it Chrysler just said no way to increasing Ethanol.

I have also heard that spot testing on ethanol content, random samples, where content was 8% to 22%. I do not have the article or reference as I just heard it mentioned at breakfast with the BMW club, but will try to post factual information if I can get it.

Like I said I can swallow everything else associated with Ethanol except the risk to rubber in higher than 10% mix. And it is just too tempting to a terminal to mix it at 12% making 2% on a 30,000 gallon truck times X trucks a day would be huge money, even 1% over.

And how accurate and who is watching the mixing process?

And Ethanol did not have the strangle hold even 5 years ago here in PA that it does today.

Again, just using my blue sta-bil and riding the piss out of my FJR.

 

[Aasland]

I am not an expert on much of anything but can't ethanol be produced from lots of other stuff besides corn ???

Yup - any cellulosic (sp??) material will work. Some better than corn, some worse.

But we don't do that because:

a) corn is (was??) subsidized by our tax $$ therefore it is advantageous to the farmers and refiners to use corn and

B) our legislators have high tariff's on imported ethanol, and on any cellulosic material that ethanol can be made from.

Gotta protect them farmers, cuz they vote too ya know!

 

[Aasland]

I've posted this before and this is a good place to post it:

Minnesota's goal's in subsidizing corn and ethanol plants:

Program goals:

To build a new market for the state's largest crop (corn).

To develop corn processing/ethanol production facilities in Minnesota.

To increase the number of New Generation Farmer Coops (NGCs**). These businesses were designed to provide farmer members greater direct cash return for their crops.

To replace 10 percent of imported petroleum we use for gasoline. (over $100 million annual savings)

To help the Twin City Area meet U.S. EPA standards for carbon monoxide.

Read all about it here: https://www.mda.state.mn.us/en/renewable/ethanol/about.aspx

 

[Aasland]

Oh ... and while I'm being politically incorrect ...

Wouldn't it make sense to use up the oil in other parts of the world before we use up our own?

What I'm getting at is the notion that in our pursuit of "reducing the reliance on foreign oil" we are using more of our own. Shouldn't we be doing the following:

• Use less oil overall
  
• Conserve our own resources
  
• Use more of other countries resources while we can
  
• Be prepared to switch over to our resources
  

 

[slapnpop]

shouldn't be politically anything. Thread closed.