Evidence of Performance Gains

[PA1195]

Fun deal all around and bunch of interesting mods. Congrats on the hard work. I'd be curious to see back to back runs with the Motty programmed to dupe the Factory A/F ratios as sensed by the pipe probe, and at your 13.2 as currently set up. Same day/same air density. Let's get the Motty out of the picture, and any remaining assumed benefits would then be from the other experiments. The real sell for me at least would be an improved fuel controller, which the Motty appears to be.
Gary in Fairbanks

I'm not sure what that would prove. The mods change airflow and require changes in fueling to be fully effective (and sometimes to prevent damage to the engine). Differences between with and without the Motty's adjustments to fueling wouldn't prove anything about the Motty itself. A PCIII could be tuned to the exact same AFR targets and get the same resulting power. The Motty being better than other fuel tuning systems doesn't necessarily give more power; it just continuously maintains the AFR targets that you set regardless of seasonal changes, exhaust/intake changes, etc. Something like a PCIII would require dyno tuning to account for these changes.

PLease don't mistake my post as being a "wet blanket" as another has inferred. My question is whether or not the Motty can be proven capable of quickly maintaining a pre-determined closed loop A/F ratio, versus a preset added or subtracted fuel matrix value as with the PCIII. The PCIII's map is really only good for the conditions under which it was originally determined, as it's a non-learning open loop device.

An optimum A/F ratio - as in the 13.2:1 you selected for your road tests, should make more power than a leaner setting if the device can keep up with the data flow and fuel metering. How much additional power, if any, can be produced is my question. That's all I asked. As for the other suck and blow mods, well, I'm sure they helped but not all may be willing to modify their bike in a like manner. However many, including myself, may be interested in having a couple of A/F settings readily available in a closed loop controller that's capable of smoothly controlling the bike's A/F ratio for different riding conditions.

The best place for all this of course is a controlled series of dyno runs yielding actual rear wheel HP/torque/A/F ratios, not the highway. Admittedly time consuming and expensive. But regardless of the actual results, I find your work interesting and worthwhile.

Gary in Fairbanks

 

[UselessPickles]

My question is whether or not the Motty can be proven capable of quickly maintaining a pre-determined closed loop A/F ratio, versus a preset added or subtracted fuel matrix value as with the PCIII. The PCIII's map is really only good for the conditions under which it was originally determined, as it's a non-learning open loop device.

The Motty is not purely closed-loop. It has an injection addition/subtraction map just like the PCIII. The Motty just has the additional step of reading the resulting measured AFR, comparing to the target AFR, and making adjustments to the injection map. Those adjustments to the injection map are then used next time the same conditions (throttle position + RPMs) are encountered. Once the Motty has reached its AFR target for a specific cell in the map, it won't have to make any on-the-fly adjustments there until conditions change significantly; the AFR will be immediately correct for that cell with no closed-loop adjustments necessary.

 

[PA1195]

My question is whether or not the Motty can be proven capable of quickly maintaining a pre-determined closed loop A/F ratio, versus a preset added or subtracted fuel matrix value as with the PCIII. The PCIII's map is really only good for the conditions under which it was originally determined, as it's a non-learning open loop device.

The Motty is not purely closed-loop. It has an injection addition/subtraction map just like the PCIII. The Motty just has the additional step of reading the resulting measured AFR, comparing to the target AFR, and making adjustments to the injection map. Those adjustments to the injection map are then used next time the same conditions (throttle position + RPMs) are encountered. Once the Motty has reached its AFR target for a specific cell in the map, it won't have to make any on-the-fly adjustments there until conditions change significantly; the AFR will be immediately correct for that cell with no closed-loop adjustments necessary.

Sounds like a good system, and the maybe the best of all worlds to date. I read their website but not the manual. My mistake, that's next. Thanks for the clarification. Might be on my list of mods as that's what I've been waiting for all these years. Had PCIII's and several others on a variety of bikes, but was never completely satisfied with their lack of learning capability and adaptability.

Best wishes for your project and hopefully a dyno session will be in your future.

Gary in Fairbanks

 

[kolonial72]

My '05 is still faster. It's the blue that does it. But good job on your second-fastest bike. It's a sweet setup and all.

I should check on the Motty, sounds pretty cool.

 

[Wicked Webby]

Pickles,

How is the motty box getting your mph inputs? I know, you said it allows you to correct the speed ratio to jive with your gps.

What error ratio are you using for correction?

WW

 

[Phugedaboudet]

Dear Sir:

I find this very relevant to my interests.

In order to do proper testing there will need to be other FJR's tested as well.

Please send your Hexacones, header and F/A controller to my address so we can independently confirm your results

Seriously though, it would have been seriously awesome to have tested before too

I'll be happy to provide "before" AND after results lol

 

[Phugedaboudet]

does anyone know if this device is CA road legal since the PCIII is no longer street legal here?

My question is whether or not the Motty can be proven capable of quickly maintaining a pre-determined closed loop A/F ratio, versus a preset added or subtracted fuel matrix value as with the PCIII. The PCIII's map is really only good for the conditions under which it was originally determined, as it's a non-learning open loop device.

The Motty is not purely closed-loop. It has an injection addition/subtraction map just like the PCIII. The Motty just has the additional step of reading the resulting measured AFR, comparing to the target AFR, and making adjustments to the injection map. Those adjustments to the injection map are then used next time the same conditions (throttle position + RPMs) are encountered. Once the Motty has reached its AFR target for a specific cell in the map, it won't have to make any on-the-fly adjustments there until conditions change significantly; the AFR will be immediately correct for that cell with no closed-loop adjustments necessary.

 

[UselessPickles]

Seriously though, it would have been seriously awesome to have tested before too

Yeah, it would have been nice. Unfortunately I got my bike in the middle of December when it was cold and snowy. I wanted to make the best of winter and get all my mods done.

 

[UselessPickles]

does anyone know if this device is CA road legal since the PCIII is no longer street legal here?

I'll guess that the Motty probably isn't street legal in CA. DynoJet had to create a new "street legal" version of the power commander that locks you out from making adjustments in certain areas. The Motty has no such restrictions. However, since you are in full control of air/fuel ratio with the Motty, I'm sure you could create an AFR map that allows your bike to pass inspection. You can also easily pop the Motty off your bike and plug a little bypass harness in to revert to stock, but you'd have to re-install the stock O2 sensor at the same time to get back to fully stock fueling.

 

[Wicked Webby]

Pickles,
How is the motty box getting your mph inputs? I know, you said it allows you to correct the speed ratio to jive with your gps.

What error ratio are you using for correction?

WW

Buellar.?.?.?

 

[UselessPickles]

Pickles,
How is the motty box getting your mph inputs? I know, you said it allows you to correct the speed ratio to jive with your gps.

What error ratio are you using for correction?

WW

Buellar.?.?.?

LOL

The Motty is using the speed signal from the ABS ECU and you calculate the multiplier based on the number of pulses per revolution (42 for Gen II FJRs) and the size of the tire (since the signal comes directly from the rear tire rather than the transmission output shaft, no gear ratios needed). The result of this calculation was already correct speeds according to GPS without need for correction. Makes you wonder why the stock speedo can be so far off. Must be that something is lost to error converting the digital pulses to an analog motor output for the speedo needle.

 

[Bustanut joker]

Way to much info for the peanut inside my head to process....I think I'll look you up when Lapeer opens an see what kinda good stuff ya done, and what the results are pickles.

Looks real good on paper man. :clapping:

:jester:

 

[ShinyPartsUp]

Like most people, more horsepower is always fascinating. I have very little GD clue what the hell you did, and few brain cells left over to learn. But just curious about reliability. What are the odds of something breaking/wearing out in the powertrain? Usually extra power has side effects... any anticipated need to monitor stock parts, and if so which ones?

And cudos on the cajones to do something I never would with my baby Feej.

 

[UselessPickles]

Like most people, more horsepower is always fascinating. I have very little GD clue what the hell you did, and few brain cells left over to learn. But just curious about reliability. What are the odds of something breaking/wearing out in the powertrain? Usually extra power has side effects... any anticipated need to monitor stock parts, and if so which ones?
And cudos on the cajones to do something I never would with my baby Feej.

It's still naturally aspirated, so I would imagine that the stock engine and drivetrain parts should withstand it without any problem. I guess I'll find out. My guess is that that the only thing I really need to watch for is that I'm running rich enough at WOT to avoid too much heat. The Motty makes it very easy to control AFR, so i should be fine there.

 

[LSUBOY]

Hey UslessPickeles, Just looking at you looking at me....Noticed that you and eye were the only ones looking at the thread at 11:51 P.M. eastern time.

Me?, I just wanna remind you to take it easy on that damn bike.

 

[HotRodZilla]

Hey Pickles,

I think you did a good job on your bike, and think it's cool you put the numbers out for all to see. Maybe one day if I grow the Cojones to install something like the Motty on my bike, I'll give you a call and make a road trip. Don't hold your breath though. You'll turn blue.

 

[2WheelTiger]

Either way, I know you made huge improvements over your stock configuration.

The term "huge" isnt exactly a technical term. Are we talking 5%, 10%, 15%, 20%? "Huge" to me would be at least a 10-15% improvement.

Truthfully, to honestly know if there are any horsepower changes - you need to put the bike on a dyno and do corrected before/after testing. Heck, I can ride my bike on a cold day versus a hot day with *no changes to the bike* and feel a performance difference.

This thread isnt much more than internet benchracing..

I hope you realize that the average dyno is an accelerometer (Dynojet, not eddy current type). I also hope you realize that every drag track is an accelerometer. Pickles DOES have one set of numbers before the changes. Now he just needs to get a set of numbers after the changes. The amount of "huge" can be calculated. There are free dragrace software packages that do this.

 

[PA1195]

Either way, I know you made huge improvements over your stock configuration.

The term "huge" isnt exactly a technical term. Are we talking 5%, 10%, 15%, 20%? "Huge" to me would be at least a 10-15% improvement.

Truthfully, to honestly know if there are any horsepower changes - you need to put the bike on a dyno and do corrected before/after testing. Heck, I can ride my bike on a cold day versus a hot day with *no changes to the bike* and feel a performance difference.

This thread isnt much more than internet benchracing..

I hope you realize that the average dyno is an accelerometer (Dynojet, not eddy current type). I also hope you realize that every drag track is an accelerometer. Pickles DOES have one set of numbers before the changes. Now he just needs to get a set of numbers after the changes. The amount of "huge" can be calculated. There are free dragrace software packages that do this.

I'm in support of his efforts, but I believe his "best data point" is from his earlier '07.

But what the hell, I'm in this to learn about the mods and not criticize. If he's taking PayPal I'm good for $20 towards a good dyno session. Anybody else wanna' put up, or?

Gary in Fairbanks

 

[UselessPickles]

I'm in support of his efforts, but I believe his "best data point" is from his earlier '07.
But what the hell, I'm in this to learn about the mods and not criticize. If he's taking PayPal I'm good for $20 towards a good dyno session. Anybody else wanna' put up, or?

Gary in Fairbanks

I thought about this for a while and decided that I would be willing to accept donations, but only for a "good dyno session". A "good dyno session" would require someone with a stock Gen II FJR to meet up with me in the metro Detroit area to get a baseline HP/TQ curve from a stock bike on the same dyno and with the same atmospheric conditions as my bike.

So, who will it be? All I need from you is your time and your bike. The cost of the dyno pull for your bike will be covered by me and any donations. Maybe I'll even buy you lunch . Right now it looks like the best place is D&B Cycle Parts in Warren. I talked to the owner there and he'll give me dyno time at a reduced rate because I'll be bringing in my own laptop and making my own adjustments to the bike while he just operates the dyno.

If anyone else is interested in getting a HP/TQ curve for their non-stock bike (maybe someone with the less radical air box mod or with aftermarket slip-ons?), this would be a good opportunity to get results with a good baseline for comparison. They charge $50 for a HP/TQ chart, but maybe we could get some kind of group discount or sneak it in some spare time leftover with the hours I pay for.

I'd be looking to go on a Saturday. PM me if you're interested in joining me.

Donations accepted via PayPal: [email protected]

All donations will be refunded if I can't find anyone to join me to get a stock baseline.

 

[PA1195]

I thought about this for a while and decided that I would be willing to accept donations, but only for a "good dyno session".Donations accepted via PayPal: [email protected]

All donations will be refunded if I can't find anyone to join me to get a stock baseline.

Payment sent and hope it helps some with your tests, wish I were there to share in the fun.

Gary in Fairbanks