False Neutral Indicator

[dhalen32]

With my bike on the side stand yesterday, I walked up and made a couple of very complimentary comments on how beautiful she looked before turning the ignition key to On and seeing the Bright GREEN letter N. After which, I hit the Starter to let her warm up a bit while putting on my gloves. Hitting the Starter turned the engine over and launched her forward taking her off the side stand. Fortunately my left hand was on the L handlebar and I was able to catch her before she fell over. Is this a fairly common situation? I tried searching but was unable to find result of a similar event on the forum. Now I will pull the clutch in when starting up before climbing on.

Celeritas:

This is why I tell all of my students that the only thing the neutral light tells you is that the bulb is working. We ask them to verify that the bike is in neutral by rocking the bike back and forth with the clutch engaged (clutch lever out) before pressing that starter button. I'm glad you caught it before some serious damage occured.

Dave

 

[weekend rider]

IF the bike starts and thinks it is in neutral and the bike is equiped with a safety for both switch's wired in series there has to be a problem with the switch that would most likely be a mechanical adjustment that is out of adjustment. In order for the bike to start electricity is required to pass thru the switches than thru the start button to the starter if the swittch is out of adjustment it will start no matter if is in neutral or any gear. Assuming the switches are all in good working order.

That being said, if the neutral and kickstand switch are adjusted properly no electricity will pass thru the kick stand or neutral detent switch to the start switch to go to the starter for the starter to engage and get your motor running and have a failure.

Each manufacturer has their own way of wiring their safety switches in, some use the clutch as a lock out some do not it is a matter of choice. The thing to remember is that they do one thing stop electricity from reaching the starter. To prevent an accident from happening as what almost happened here. Also there should be only one switch and not one for each gear.

If you look at a wiring ladder wiring diagram it will tell you exactly how the path for electricity to flow to those switches to work and what will keep them from not working. This should be the same for a manual shift and an electric shift........ in gear is in gear whether auto or standard and kick stand is the same. Your right, keep it simple, that is what is bing done

This is down right educational

As for the light, if it is maintained properly and replaced when burned out it can be a useful tool in helping you solve the problem. Remember if you trust it to tell you it is in neutral why would you not trust it to tell you is not in neutral? ONe must learn to use all of the equipment that one works on to help find the problem

What if they installed a current relay wired in for the bulb to always work and draw current and it is wired in series to complete the circuit for it to start. NOw the bulb becomes very important for it to always work and to be able to start the bike. There can be more functions for a bulb than to just shine light wether it be this subject or any other.

weekend rider

 

[markjenn]

Weekend, you keep talking about the sidestand switch, switches in series, and "both" switches. Maybe I'm misreading your responses, but are we clear that the sidestand switch has NADA, ZLICH, ZERO to do with this falure? If the bike is in neutral, it can start. This is really a simple problem and does not require reading wiring diagrams. The bike simply is indicating neutral when it is not in neutral, and therefore energizing the starting circuit when it shouldn't be. That's the entire issue in a nutshell.

- Mark

 

[Constant Mesh]

Don't know if the gear position switch assembly on the left side of the engine is adjustable. It is attached with two bolts (loctite). Don't know if the bolt holes in the switch assembly are slotted so that you can rotate the assembly and adjust its operation. Probably not.

 

[markjenn]

Don't know if the gear position switch assembly on the left side of the engine is adjustable. It is attached with two bolts (loctite). Don't know if the bolt holes in the switch assembly are slotted so that you can rotate the assembly and adjust its operation. Probably not.

Good area for investigation. This could be a simple adjustment. And it reminds me that the '06 and later have the gear position on the dash so they probably have a different switch/sensor on the shiftting drum to sense all six gears rather than just neutral. But I'd still bet that on the new bikes, if the dash indicates neutral, it will start, whether it's really in neutral or not.

- Mark

 

[weekend rider]

Yes, I keep refering to switches and they do not have to be a physical switch as most would think. The switches can also be in the circuitry in the computer circuit which tell if it is in neutral or not, so yes there are switches. If they are in the computer circuit than they have an address and are still switches that turn on or off.

I have an 05 fjr " and it will not start with the kick stand down or in gear when on the stand This is a safety issue and must be addressed by the manfacture when the bike is being designed and made and sold to the general public. If a bike starts in gear there is a problem, faulty switch or computer circuitry.

I can not emphasize the safety aspect enough for the general public

As far as the wiring diagrams that is what you use to find problems like that as you would use the service manual. A good technician uses all the tools provided for the equipment being worked on to solve a problem like this, as well as asked other techs.

If that bike starts in gear there is a problem and I would want it fixed by the shop that sold it or the Maufacturer that made it (Yamaha). If the problem is not fixed than it should be a recall by the maker (Yamaha) and be repaired by them. It is a safety issue and a dangerous one at that.

So yes there are switches in the electrical system. weekend rider

 

[dhalen32]

The kick stand is part of the safety devices built in to prevent take-offs with stand down and cause rider to wreck or some other kind of problem .
Now that being said, it does not mean that they changed it and the starting procudure. I believe that the the safety of the rider is first and formost and that is part of the REQUIRED safety procedures by the uniform manfacturing code for building and selling a motorcycle to the public at large.

On my 05 the kick stand switch and gear shifter is wired in series to the start button to prevent this from happening. I find it highly unlikely that they changed the design since it is for safety.

If your bike starts in neutral and it is not designed to you have a faulty switch or need adjustment on your neutral de-tent switch I would take it to the dealer.

One way to settle the difference on what it could be is to get out the wiring diagram and trace the electrical through the switches and use your volt- ohm meter and that will tell you exactly how it should work

Always think safety be safe and and you will always be safe

This forum is great, we get to express our professional opinion and the right to agree or agree to disagree no harm no foul

bweekend rider

Weekend:

Just a little technical inaccuracy about a uniform manufacturing code in your response above. Most bikes have electrical circuits that connect the sidestand, clutch, gearshift, etc in order to prevent the type of issue experienced by the new '07 owner but unfortunately not all manufacturers do so. In addition, not all manufactureres do this in the same manner. Harley does not use any electrical interlock system to my knowledge. I believe that is because of their positive locking design that will fold up without the bike's weight on it. Buells will start and run with the sidestand down, in gear with the clutch squeezed but will stall as soon as the operator starts to ease out the clutch. I'm not sure about all of the other brands out there but most of the Japanese bikes I have owned will quit when you deploy the sidestand with the bike in gear even with the clutch squeezed.

Dave

 

[Constant Mesh]

There are six mechanical gear position switches on the the '06A and later. The AE has an analog position sensor similar to the throttle position sensor.

On the left end of the shift drum is a spring-loaded electrical contact which is grounded in the engine. As the shift drum rotates to each gear position and neutral position this spring-loaded contact completes one of the six discrete circuits on the gear position switch assembly mounted on the left side of the crankcase. The switch assembly is a six wire device.

The shift drum probably rotates fewer degrees from 1st to neutral and neutral to 2nd than it does from 2nd to 3rd, etc. So the switch contacts for 1st, neutral, and 2nd are probably closer together than those for 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th.

I don't have an '06 so I don't know if there's a rotational adjustment for this switch assembly. Just guessing I'd say there isn't.

 

[ponyfool]

Prior to reading this thread, I would have bet money that my '06 would not have started with the side stand down and the bike in neutral. So, while reading this thread, I went out to my garage, and with the bike on the side stand, I put it in neutral. I hit the starter and was very surprised to see that it not only turned over, but it started.

I guess after decades of riding, when I think about it, I haven't ever (until today) started my bike on the side stand without having the clutch fully disengaged.

 

[markjenn]

I have an 05 fjr " and it will not start with the kick stand down or in gear when on the stand.

Either you're mistaken or your bike is different from everybody's elses. As we've discussed (over and over and over) in this thread, an 05 (and presumably other models) definitely will start with the kickstand down provided it is (or thinks that it is) in neutral. Go try it.

- Mark

 

[Inlaw1]

Every Japanese bike I know of manufactured for the last 15 years, and maybe before that, will start with the kick stand down, in neutral and clutch engaged.

They all do it. If your's doesn't, then there is something wrong with it (mechanically), not that it's a bad thing.

I've had a couple of false neutrals with my 06 Both of mine have happened when coming to a stop and down shifting. Go for neutral.. the light comes on.. let the clutch out and it's still in gear. I noticed one time that while the neutral light came on the gear indicator still indicated 1rst gear.

To make sure I'm clear.. my false neutral showed the green light but the gear readout indicated a gear.

 

[CeleritasFJR]

Every Japanese bike I know of manufactured for the last 15 years, and maybe before that, will start with the kick stand down, in neutral and clutch engaged.
They all do it. If your's doesn't, then there is something wrong with it (mechanically), not that it's a bad thing.

I've had a couple of false neutrals with my 06 Both of mine have happened when coming to a stop and down shifting. Go for neutral.. the light comes on.. let the clutch out and it's still in gear. I noticed one time that while the neutral light came on the gear indicator still indicated 1rst gear.

To make sure I'm clear.. my false neutral showed the green light but the gear readout indicated a gear.

In my case, only the big green N displayed and the gear readout was blank. I truly appreciate reading through the many knowledgeable opinions and comments. I have had bikes before which indicated neutral but jumped when I kick started (the FJR is only my 2nd or 3rd bike with electric start). I just figured that the manufacturing technology and tolerances were so much more superior on a current production bike over those from yesteryear. Now that I have had this experience I always squeeze the clutch before starting on the side stand. I like to have the engine warm up while donning my helmet/gloves, not to mention I am still very much enamored w/ the sound of the exhaust at idle!

 

[weekend rider]

After I read a couple of the last threads I took for granted it was the side kick stand we were talking about than i realized which stand were we talking about. My 05 on the center stand will start in gear. on the center stand with the side kick stand down will not start, if bike is on side kick stand it will not start. If i pull clutch in on side kick stand it will start , If Bike is in gear and off both stands and clutch pulled in it will start. An educated guess as to why it starts with the clutch in would be for stalling at a stop sign or stalling going slowly up a hill or a mishap of this nature.

Not a bad idea to find out how ones bike will start when not sitting on it and being in control

It has been a great discussion and a lot of information was passed along for the betterment of the rider in the intrest of saftey weekend rider

 

[FJRottie]

Any bike (well...99.9%) WILL start with the side stand down, with the bike in neutral, without touching the clutch.

Some (i.e. HDs) will start with the side stand down and the bike in gear. The FJR is not designed this way.

Always start a bike with the clutch in, to prevent a mishap..kinda of like ensuring your side stand is fully extended before you get off of it.

Never Assume.

If your bike indicates it is in "Neutral", but is not, it needs to be fixed.

 

[jayke]

Kinda off the thread but years ago I read somewhere to never let a bike idle on the sidestand, the cam bearings on the throttle side might not get enough oil because the bike is leaning. I always sit on my FJR to start it, seems like that would solve your problem and maybe save you a problem later if the oil /idle thing is true.

Jayke

2005@ 31K

 

[racer157]

I have always told my MSF students that the reason the motorcycle manufactures call it a "NEUTRAL INDICATOR LIGHT" is because it indicates the bike might be in NEUTRAL. Every bike maker I know of uses a grounding style switch, where the ground leg of the light circuit is nothing more than a contact in the transmission case that grounds the circuit when the shifting drum is in a certain position. This however can change if a flake of metal finds it's way into that area or if the wire going to the switch shorts out against the engine case or frame. Don't TRUST THE GREEN LIGHT!

 

[Rickster]

How and/or why would/could you shut-down and then get off your bike in a false neutral condition?

I mean.... you'd have to snick it into a false neutral with the clutch lever pulled in -- then shut off the ignition key or start switch while the clutch lever is still pulled in to ever park the bike in this condition -- that doesn't make sense to me. I would think that you would: shift to neutral, stop the bike, slowly let out the clutch before turning off the bike... if you did this -- you left the bike in neutral... so starting on the stand with or without clutch is fine.

I'm looking at the "how'd you stop in false neutral" side of the equasion instead of the starting issue....(discussed thoroughly already)

 

[FJRottie]

How and/or why would/could you shut-down and then get off your bike in a false neutral condition?

Some people turn their bike off while in gear, and leave it in gear (A very smart way to park on the side stand BTW).

Then they come back to the bike, turn the key to "on", put it into "indicated" neutral and then hit the start button.

That is how.

 

[Rickster]

How and/or why would/could you shut-down and then get off your bike in a false neutral condition?

Some people turn their bike off while in gear, and leave it in gear (A very smart way to park on the side stand BTW).

Then they come back to the bike, turn the key to "on", put it into "indicated" neutral and then hit the start button.

That is how.

hmm.... there's a false neutral between first and actual neutral??? (assuming the gear you left it in is first that is...) I still don't get it.

 

[roadrash]

NEUTRAL SMUTCHAL. PUT THE BIKE IN GEAR AND GO HAVE FUN AND RIDE.

:yahoo: