FJR Riders and crashing

[throttlejockeyTJ]

I dropped my 500 shortly after I got it. I left a signal turning left into a four lane really crowned road. Hard on it in second gear the back end came around. A previous truck leaving the intersection blew a grease seal. Very little damage to either. Minor knee RR.

I locked up my 750 front tire just about stopped at a stop sign. It was at night and could not see the gasoline left by one of those GM rear bumper gas tanks. Only the replaceable beading on the Windjammer was scared.

 

[piwowar]

I've had 2 get-offs in 30 years both in '77. The first was a duel with a german shepard and my GT 380 on a one lane mountain road that we both lost (although I slid with the bike and only smoked my gear). The other was having my GS 750 (a great 2 stroke beast) getting run over by a drunk driver while sitting at a red light. Both rider error in my opinion (inexperience & lack of awareness).

I'd be interested in the riding style; do they normally ride alone or in a group? 90% of my riding is alone so I've developed an awareness that some of my group-ride buddies don't have. I ride aggressively and try to avoid having a brain fart. When I ride there is a heightened sense of awareness. When I find myself daydreaming, not totally aware of my surroundings, or my gut tells me I'm becoming a gluton and have had enough adrenaline for now...I take a break. That smack in the ass by the '77 Camaro was enough for me to skip crash class. Like Turbo Dave said "if it don't look right..." or simply, listen to your gut.

Ed

 

[fjrrider]

"Crashing" Not much fun to think about, so I try not to! I don't think about crashing while I'm riding either, an earlier post said something about having a higher level of focus while pushing the limits, I agree with that! If crashing is on your mind while riding, your either going too fast or you don't need to be on a bike.

Its a good thing somebody out there is willing to push the limits or we wouldn't have the bikes we have today, including the FJR!

IMHO "confidence in your abilities" plays a major part in crashing or not crashing, to worry about it wont help a bit!

Oh I did hit a buzzard once going around a curve doing about 90 mph. He was eating something, I don't know what, when I came around the corner and interrupted his meal. If he would have moved to one side or the other just a little, everything would have been just fine. Nope he decided to get up and fly straight down the road about chest high. I didnt figure if I hit him he would just glance off, so I stuck my nose on the bike tank and hoped he would fly right over. Nope he hit the left side handle bar, dont know how he got from chest high to the handle bar I wasn't looking. I felt the hit looked up and I had already crossed over the opposite lane and was in the ditch, laid the bike down on its right side followed it about 40 or 50 yards, through a barbed wire fence and into the trees. Tore the bike up pretty good and left me banged up for a few days, but I survived to try it again!

 

[RebelRider]

Try one more time..I went down in oil on a freeway offramp in the dark...a broken rib and $3000 in damages to the fjr..I got rid of it after that...not the bike for me..I have this bike now..

https://www.geocities.com/trap_35/svws2.jpg

 

[flapsup]

Ask almost any aircraft pilot, or the FAA, and they'll generally tell you any given accident was pilot error with some contributing factors. Gravel on the road is a contributing factor, the "pilot" erred because he was too fast for conditions. Single bike low side in a curve, bad cold tires are a contributing factor and the "pilot" erred because he was using unsafe equipment in a manner that deviated from safe operating parameters (excessive speed and cold tires), and developed "target fixation", a result of improper training or lack of recurrent training. Anyway, you get my drift.

JFK Jr and company died because he flew his airplane into deteriorating visibility, failed to get on the instruments quickly enough, and his instrument flying skills were not what they should have been. John Denver died while switching from one fuel tank to another and failed to follow instructions about how to do it in an airplane that was new to him. Al Fitzgerald died because he ran out fuel 150 yards from the end of a runway. The gas cap came off and the fuel was siphoned out of one tank. He failed to switch to a fuller tank like the before landing checklist asks you to do, which means he didn't use the checklist either. Three mistakes, and another good guy is gone.

You know that some cager is going to turn left in front of you today, or seize your lane because they can't see you because they are too busy talking on the cell, or change three lanes in one move with no signal because they are stupid. It doesn't matter. Avoiding them, the deer, the gravel, whatever the hazard is, you put yourself there. An FJR PILOT is no different from any aircraft pilot. You and you alone are responsible for the safe operation of your ride in the conditions you choose to ride in.

Sorry for the rant. Personal responsibility for a life is a big deal, even if it's just your own.

Now, where's that really good stretch of twisties?!

 

[Wingman]

Sorry for the rant. Personal responsibility for a life is a big deal, even if it's just your own.

I wouldn't call that a rant, just the cold hard truth. Pilot error with some contributing factors makes just as much sense to a motorcyclist as to a pilot of an aircraft. It's simply amazing how many aviation incidents are labeled "pilot error". Most of the time there are contributing factors, but in the end most of the accidents could have been avoided if the pilot in command had broken the chain of events leading up to the accident.

We are the "pilot in command" of our motorcycles from kickstand up to kickstand down, and should strive to make the number of takeoffs equal the number of landings.

David

 

[Kevin Daly]

It's a short step from 9/10's to 11/10's.

But the stated rule of thumb says you should never ride over 7/10's on the street.....my how soon we forget.... :blink: ....

I agree, so lets define 7/10's. For me (for example) pegs should only scrape on a public road rarely. I do ride reasonably hard and my tires wear more or less evenly from ear to ear. To my way of thinking, if you are scraping hard parts you are over 70% and you have little if any lean left if you should need to change your line to the inside to avoid sand or what not.

[soapbox]What is amaizing to me is the number of people i see that actually dont at least lean with a bike (like you would on dirt for example), when in fact you should be leaning more than the bike and should be set up before actually initiating the lean. Scraping pegs is like an achievement to many ("dude, did you see me light up around that courner"); it is very squidly if your doing it around every corner you can and not actually practicing on a track or parkinglot at low speed. That said, I eventually scrap hard parts on every bike i have owned on the streets, but sometimes it becomes necessary. The sad thing is that at the speed most people ride it isnt because the bike doesnt need to be as leaned as it is.

So far I have had 2 accidents in my life, both more than 20 years ago; one was a front wheel lockup on gravel and pavement while running from the "man" (yes of course i got away), the other was a lowside after drifting through sand and over a lane divider (you know those rounded humps they put between lanes that are merging from different streets); i ditched before i drifted into a car (that didnt hurt). After these accidents I realized that I was always riding on the edge and never left any room for the unexpeted. (Oh and then there was the time on that cloverleaf when i hit a piece of fire wood, 5" split my rim but i kept it up, but it was still a no options left mistake)

So if your an adrenelin junkie (an AJ) like i am you need to learn to get that monkey off your back and keep reminding yourself that you dont know what is around that corner (or in it for that matter). You also need to debrief yourself about what you did WRONG. What i mean is it is one thing to sit back and say " that was a great ride...loved that bla bla bla... man want that close.." Dont stop there. Work out in your mind that last thougt to its logical conclusion "man that was close when I was scraping my can and that squirl ran out in front of me. what would i have done if it stopped what were my outs?" if you didnt have any then you were most likely over 70% and you (and your family) got lucky.

When the line you take is the only line available you have found the edge.

[/soapbox]

great thread by the way

Bottom line;Unless your somehow taken out by someone/thing else, or some type of mechanical issue, it's rider error.

Can i get an Amen Brother! :clapping:

 

[Kevin Daly]

I find that when I am riding hard I make fewer mistakes. This is when all my sensors are working in the same direction and I am paying attention to what I am doing.

+1 Exactly

I dont think that riding hard can be equated to riding over your limits or pushing beyond 70% or increasing the liklihood of a rider error. On the contrary you are describing being in the zone and this can be done best when you are not beyond your comfort zone

 

[Kevin Daly]

That was the first time with booze and the last time. And now I totally do not drink.

As if that needed to be said (or, maybe it did).

-Ok i finished reading this thread, i promise no more triple posts

 

[SMC]

:blink: I would say all my get-offs were my mistakes and luckily ninety nine percent were when I was a young kid on dirt bikes.

The ones I've had on my road bikes range from putting your feet down at a stop light, sign or side of the road and instead of making contact with solid dry ground, your feet contact a patch of oil or gravel and down you go, to; being to stupid (again in my college days) to realize that your approach speed to a right had turn in driving rain is going to preclude you making that right hand turn successfully.

Down I went, low side, bike goes sliding across the pavement, I tear up my jeans, bugger up my right knee, but still able to get to bike, get it upright and drive off, while feeling like a total duffus as I had an intersection of observers watch me go down.

 

[zorkler]

went down 3 times many years ago . High every time . I can say rider error

 

[fretbender]

lessee here. . .rider error the first time and, um, rider error the second time. . .might be some sort of pattern here. :dribble:

 

[okmac]

Sorry for the rant. Personal responsibility for a life is a big deal, even if it's just your own.

I wouldn't call that a rant, just the cold hard truth. Pilot error with some contributing factors makes just as much sense to a motorcyclist as to a pilot of an aircraft. It's simply amazing how many aviation incidents are labeled "pilot error". Most of the time there are contributing factors, but in the end most of the accidents could have been avoided if the pilot in command had broken the chain of events leading up to the accident.

We are the "pilot in command" of our motorcycles from kickstand up to kickstand down, and should strive to make the number of takeoffs equal the number of landings.

David

+1

Truer words were never spoken. A pilot must realize what is happening and break the chain of events, a bike pilot can do the same a lot of times if he is just aware of what is going on around him/her instead of being off in dream land some place.

Mac

 

[keithaba]

I see both sides of the coin on this one.

I totally understand that you are solely responsible for the bike and controlling it. I get that if you can't see around a corner, you should go much slower because you can't see that there might be gravel, or a car pulling out, a lost baby playing in the street :dntknw:

But what about when a rider does go around a blind corner at a reasonable speed, then gravel, rider takes caution and minimizes lean angle, no brake applied...

Rider still goes boom. What could the rider do differently to prevent that???

Maybe an MSF instructor can chime in, but I just don't see what someone could do differently in that situation?

It reminds me of a quote by B.F. Skinner "A failure is not always a mistake, it may simply be the best one can do under the circumstances. The real mistake is to stop trying."

The point being, that under certain circumstances, regardless of our behavior, failure (crashing) may still occurr.

 

[Wingman]

I see both sides of the coin on this one.
I totally understand that you are solely responsible for the bike and controlling it. I get that if you can't see around a corner, you should go much slower because you can't see that there might be gravel, or a car pulling out, a lost baby playing in the street :dntknw:

But what about when a rider does go around a blind corner at a reasonable speed, then gravel, rider takes caution and minimizes lean angle, no brake applied...

Rider still goes boom. What could the rider do differently to prevent that???

Maybe an MSF instructor can chime in, but I just don't see what someone could do differently in that situation?

It reminds me of a quote by B.F. Skinner "A failure is not always a mistake, it may simply be the best one can do under the circumstances. The real mistake is to stop trying."

The point being, that under certain circumstances, regardless of our behavior, failure (crashing) may still occurr.

Sometimes there is NOTHING that could have been done differently that would have changed the outcome. I've seen a few reports where the only thing a rider could have done differently was to wear better protective gear. We all know there are risks involved with riding and not all crashes are avoidable. I believe that the majority of them could have been avoided or at least something done to minimize the damage. Sometimes getting out of bed can be a painful mistake, but there would have been no way to know that ahead of time. :huh:

If you can look back at a crash and think to yourself "If I had only...", then there was more that could have been done to prevent the situation. If you can look back and honestly say you did everything in your power to change the outcome, then that is all you could have done.

David

 

[fretbender]

If you can look back at a crash and think to yourself "If I had only...", then there was more that could have been done to prevent the situation. If you can look back and honestly say you did everything in your power to change the outcome, then that is all you could have done.
David

Oh so true. Much better than being in my shoes now looking back at things. . .at the time I was thinking, "I really shouldn't be doing this. This is pretty risky. " And then being on my back with the bike on top of me, sliding down the road thinking, "Yep, I was right. I really shouldn't have done that." . . ."that" being powersliding the FJR around corners on a gravel road.

The incident did however give me a very lucid appreciation for

1) Just how quickly 11/10's occurs on gravel roads.

2) Just how much protective gear is worth. The only injury was a strained knee ligament from the bike riding on top of me as we slid down the road.

 

[Fred W]

If you can look back at a crash and think to yourself "If I had only...", then there was more that could have been done to prevent the situation. If you can look back and honestly say you did everything in your power to change the outcome, then that is all you could have done.
David

Oh so true. Much better than being in my shoes now looking back at things. . .at the time I was thinking, "I really shouldn't be doing this. This is pretty risky. " And then being on my back with the bike on top of me, sliding down the road thinking, "Yep, I was right. I really shouldn't have done that." . . ."that" being powersliding the FJR around corners on a gravel road.

The incident did however give me a very lucid appreciation for

1) Just how quickly 11/10's occurs on gravel roads.

2) Just how much protective gear is worth. The only injury was a strained knee ligament from the bike riding on top of me as we slid down the road.

Dude... Buy a dirt bike.

 

[renink]

just witnessed an accident today. The cager was mostly at fault since he decided to come up a one way street to pass traffic (Stuck truck) and made a u-turn onto a merge for the highway. I was at a light right in front of the merge and was thinking how big of an a-hole this guy was when my light turned green and this guy on a gixxer sped right by my left obviously not seeing the minivan until it was too late and SMASH!. Was like I was watching it in slow-mo. The guys bike was f'ed up and the minivan's front was torn off. By the time I got to the front of the minivan (To cut him off in case he was thinking of leaving) the biker was sort of back on his feet. He was limping really bad and I could have sworn I heard him say something about popping it back in. He's lucky, it could have been worse.

It could have been avoided if he wasn't speeding and passing me in my lane right when the light was turning green.

 

[cougar8000]

Maybe an MSF instructor can chime in, but I just don't see what someone could do differently in that situation?

You can't handle the truth.

In my personal experience with gravel solo and two up you have to be traveling at a brisky rate or do something else to slide on it. Rolling off and trying to slow down while on top of the gravel is one of the most dangerous things one can do. Generally speaking if you just maintain the speed and the lean while on the gravel you shall survive the ordeal with just a wet diaper.

That said there are exceptions for every rule. Depends on the amount of gravel and how packed it is and the alignment of the stars ... you get the drift.

most of the time you will survive. And those times that you did not you will go down because you should have went slower. If you were going even more slower what would have happened?

We all make mistakes. sometimes we pay dearly, i.e. double brake in the tibia and a broken off ankle, and other times we brush off and say WTF. As long as we are willing to learn and actually learn that is all that counts.

The only time I went down on the street, we are not counting 1 time at the track, I should have paid more attention to the shit laying on the road, 2x4 piece of hard plastic mid turn, and checked me been pissed off at the office before leaving it.

So, ride safe and learn.

There is talk about comfort zone and such. My comfort zone is all good and dangy. The problem comes in when you start piling up on top of that comfort zone. When I rode my FZ I was comfortable enough to power slide it into the turns. Leaning it to the point of side panels getting scratched up and then one day I realized that even so I can ride like that all day long and not break a sweat it will only take a slight imperfection in the road, a truck suddenly blowing a tire, a bamby jumping on front of me to send me flying to the hospital. So, I have downgraded my comfort zone to a lower level.

Each and everyone has its own zone. Are we accounting for what if in this zone is a real question?

 

[James Burleigh]

...so the question becomes, are you willing to risk your arse for a hobby you love?

So I went riding with Friggin' Fast Freddy Feejer (RsvlFeej) last weekend. On Rockpile Rd, with its long, wide, positively cambered sweepers, I found myself leaning waaaaaay over with my butt halfway off the seat and my head leaning so far over to where it seemed like it was under the handlebar next to the front tire, while on every righteous right-hand sweeper that rolling ribbon of menacing metallic guardrail sharply reflecting the blazing sunlight unfurled at a blurring rate just inches from my face.

And still I wanted to go faster. And I did. And I rolled that throttle on some more and pushed that handlebar closer toward the ground....

When I got home late that afternoon, and after washing the bike and stowing it in the garage; and after I had totally morphed from Motorcycle Riding Man back into plain ol' Just Man, and perhaps most important after I had morphed back into Sole Breadwinner Man, Mortgage Holder Man, Kids in College Man, Provider of Bread on the Table Man, etc., etc., etc. (as Yul Brenner says)--that is to say, now back in the skin of that guy (let's call him Clark)....

When Clark thought back to his day and his behavior in those marvelous sweepers that afternoon, his reaction was invariably--"What in the F**K was I thinking?! Why do I think I need to play at Nicky Hayden?! Why do I have to go fast at all?! What's the point?! James Francis Montgomery Alberto Alonso Destructo Burleigh III, what in the H.E. Double Hockey Sticks is the matter with you?! Are you nuts?!"

I don't know, actually. But it's an interesting question you ask, KeithAba.

J.B. III Esq.

B.A., Philosophy

U.C. Berkeley, 1978

With All the Rights and Privileges Thereto Pertaining

This is an interesting topic, so lets keep it civil and on topic. No matter what you opinion is, I'm interested in hearing it.

That's easy to control. Just don't mention knee pucks (yes, the pain is still there....).