FJRF009.0: Ground Spider Research

[RZ350]

+1 Very interesting. Yamaha must know something.

Sometimes a mfgr will keep it quiet until they have the solution (and parts) ready to release to the masses. Just happened on my wifes Subaru. Dealer installed a temporary fix to keep the car running (per factory instructions) but she was called back in a few months to install the permanent fix once it was available. The mfgr can't be expected to design a fix or produce repair parts instantly. Not trying to defend anyone - just keeping it "real". And the "real" world, unfortunately, isn't perfect.

Glad I got those T-harnesses installed - thanks road runner!

 

[bramfrank]

My 08 died Friday night while doing a turn around on an incline. I thought I stalled it at first.All the symptoms fit a spider problem, but the dealer was bored with my story and said Yamaha never heard of anything like that. But he did say that, Yamaha suggested looking under the tank at the grounding blocks. My fried spider was the one up front near the glove box.

The dealer is at a loss for what "caused the problem". And realizes he is only replacing the damage from the problem. My bike only has 9,800 miles. :angry:

File your tale of woe on the NHTSA site and make certain you describe it as the ground spider problem or else they may think it is the ignition switch issue . . . . links earlier in this thread

 

[Grit]

My 08 died Friday night while doing a turn around on an incline. I thought I stalled it at first.All the symptoms fit a spider problem, but the dealer was bored with my story and said Yamaha never heard of anything like that. But he did say that, Yamaha suggested looking under the tank at the grounding blocks. My fried spider was the one up front near the glove box.

The dealer is at a loss for what "caused the problem". And realizes he is only replacing the damage from the problem. My bike only has 9,800 miles. :angry:

File your tale of woe on the NHTSA site and make certain you describe it as the ground spider problem or else they may thjink it is the ignition switch issue . . . . links earlier in this thread

Done

 

[Grit]

Well, I picked up my bike on Saturday….

When I got to the Dealer, I was told by the guy collecting payment that the mechanic had to remove the flasher for my Kisan SignalMinder. And that the flasher caused my harness ground to fry… And he also vented some frustration about Yamaha only giving them 3.4 hours on a repair that took their mechanic a day and a half… I went ballistic.

Within a minute or two the mechanic and the floor foreman were up front trying to explain the flasher to me. Up to this point I was under the impression that the flasher was still good, but deemed to be the problem and removed so it wouldn’t fry the new harness. That wasn’t the case, the flasher was fried. Neither the mechanic nor the floor foreman suggested that the flasher caused the problem. The mechanic’s only comment about the flasher was that it’s not working now and it had gotten very hot. I do believe that they think the flasher was the cause, but knowing my reaction, didn’t want to bring it up again.

The flasher was installed by another Yamaha Dealer just after I bought the bike.

So what do you think? Does their conclusion have merit?

 

[Harald]

Well, I picked up my bike on Saturday….When I got to the Dealer, I was told by the guy collecting payment that the mechanic had to remove the flasher for my Kisan SignalMinder. And that the flasher caused my harness ground to fry… And he also vented some frustration about Yamaha only giving them 3.4 hours on a repair that took their mechanic a day and a half… I went ballistic.

Within a minute or two the mechanic and the floor foreman were up front trying to explain the flasher to me. Up to this point I was under the impression that the flasher was still good, but deemed to be the problem and removed so it wouldn’t fry the new harness. That wasn’t the case, the flasher was fried. Neither the mechanic nor the floor foreman suggested that the flasher caused the problem. The mechanic’s only comment about the flasher was that it’s not working now and it had gotten very hot. I do believe that they think the flasher was the cause, but knowing my reaction, didn’t want to bring it up again.

The flasher was installed by another Yamaha Dealer just after I bought the bike.

So what do you think? Does their conclusion have merit?

Not knowing how the signal minder is wired I can't say for sure what happened. I do know that what happened when one of my spiders crapped out was that the ground was lost for a few circuits and power was being fed Backwards through circuits. It's very possible that your signal minder doesn't like having reverse current flow on the ground line and smoked as a result. But again, this is all theory because I don't have a schematic in front of me.

 

[ffejtable]

Looks like I was bit by this issue yesterday as well.

https://www.fjrforum.com/forum//index.php?s...mp;#entry733686

Of the 10 symptoms dustyrains lists in https://www.fjrforum.com/forum//index.php?s...=124986&hl= I have all but 1, and thats because I don't have the e-shift version.

3 hours trying to fix it, 3 hours to wait for a flatbed, and $480 to get the bike towed home from Queens NY to central NJ. I have alreaqdy filed a complaint with the NHTSA at safercars, and have Yahama Customer relations. I have a very good relationship with my dealer who I am sure will take care of it, but unless Yamaha has changed something, this problem is likely to reoccur.

Details on the bike... VIN # 006535, 09 A model, a little over 5400 miles, purchased end of May 09, so its just under 1 year old. No electrical modications done to the bike other than the windshield retract disconnected. Bike stalled at low speed on the Cross Island Parkway (Queens, NY). Outside temp was reading 91F, and after at least 10 minutes of sitting I realized the bike frame was extremely hot to the touch. Leaving my hand on it for 5-10 seconds would certainly have caused burns. i don't know if this is normal or not since I usually dont touch the frame, but it did seem excessive.

The symptoms for this issue is no different than the ignition switch problem which was significant enough to be recalled. The potential for a life threatening accident is no different for this issue and needs to be addressed by Yamaha. Yamaha should feel lucky that the financial burden of this repair will be the cost of parts + labor + towing, and not funeral expenses.

 

[bramfrank]

I started the thread and now I am one of the problem's victims.

Bit by the S4 spider. Now I'm off to see if Transport Canada has a similar site to the NHTSA's safercars.

edit: They DO. It can be found at https://wwwapps.tc.gc.ca/Saf-Sec-Sur/7/PCDB...p.aspx?lang=eng I will be editing the initial post for the thread and starting a new topic to bring this to the attention of Canadian victims.

 

[bramfrank]

I was just now affected by the problem, I decided to see where we Canadians go to complain about safety defects. And while I did put this information into the head post in the FJR:0009 Spider thread, people previously affected who may not have reported their problems likely would never think to reread that thread,

So I am posting the same information in a new thread whose title will hopefully attract the notice of my fellow affected Canuks:

[SIZE=24pt]Important note for CANADIANS. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Since my ride has finally been bitten by the spider bug I looked up the reporting mechanisms available to us here in Canada. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=24pt]Canadians can file a report on line [/SIZE]HERE or you can call Transport Canada at 800-333-0510 and do it by phone.

More information, including contact data for US riders, can be found HERE

 

[bramfrank]

Here is the body of the message I put in my report to the Canadian authorities:

There is a demonstrated defect in the design of the 2006 through 2010 model years wiring harness whereby the connectors and wiring of the electrical ground system are subject to overloading and goes 'open circuit', resulting in spontaneous shutdown of most systems including headlights, engine, ABS, brake lights and such.

My machine was affected yesterday and requires the wiring harness be completely replaced.

More information here: https://www.fjrforum.com/forum//index.php?showtopic=119017

 

[canucklehead-biker]

Thanks for doing the legwork and posting up the contacts. I've saved the info for (possible) future use.

Griff

 

[Ian Stephens]

I hope that I never have to use this info, but it's good to have - thanks!

ian

 

[iboldguy]

Bram - thanks for your work and great info. I have saved it, touch wood hoping won't need it. Now I need to find your Zumo evaluation again.

 

[vaughn]

Thanks to everyone involved in researching potential electrical problems with the Genn II bikes. The postings around this issue are intelligent and relevant. I can't imagine that Yamaha Canada (or USA) could

ignore so many well documented, sensible discussions of the ground issue. From a customer loyalty perspective, it is clearly not a good business decision to simply ignore the problem.

I plan on taking two actions.

1. The first question in writing would be - Is Yamaha Canada aware of the ground issue that so many are experiencing? If so, what are they planning to do about it?

If not, I would like to put them on notice that this is a serious problem that could be potentially fatal if ground failure happens on a busy highway or any of a variety of potentially hazardous circumstances.

2. Transport Canada - I will write to Transport Canada stating that there is mounting evidence in the FJR community of serious failures with electrical system that need to be investigated. Of course the potential for serious or fatal inury will be emphasized.

I see no reason why owners of Gen ll bikes should wait until a catastrophic failure has occured before expressing concerns to Yamaha or Transport Canada (or the US Traffic Safety authorities). This is a strong community of sensible people who should not have to simply wait around for disaster to occur. According to the current poll it looks like there are over 150 forum members that have experienced this problem. Hopefully this will be resolved before anyone is seriously injured.

Vaughn

 

[El Cajone]

Thanks for doing the leg work on this, Bram. I will definitely follow up with the contacts you provided.

I was bitten by the spider in the first year I owned my '07. I would never have figured out what to make of the bizarre set of symptoms I had if it wasn't for the information on this forum. My dealer couldn't figure it out either until I printed off some material from here and showed him where the ground spider was. Fortunately, I still had some time left on the original warranty and it was "repaired" at no cost to me, but I'm not sure if anything official was sent to Yamaha Canada or the dealer just "took care of it".

It is a serious safety issue; I probably had 30 or 40 engine cut outs on the way home from CFR last year. If a cut out happens at just the wrong time and place, you could be toast!

 

[FJRGuy]

No issues on my '07 yet but I like the idea of being proactive on this.

I haven't looked into this much but it seems that the affected bikes may be more often than not from higher humidity areas. Not that this would lessen the urgency of this safety issue, just wondering if anyone has noticed a trend in environmental factors.

 

[vaughn]

Check this out! This is Honda's recall for what sounds like a similar problem with the VFR. (sorry if everyone on the forum already knows about this except me)

If Honda can do it, so can Yamaha!!

August 31, 2007

Dear Honda Motorcycle Dealer:

SAFETY RECALL NOTICE

AFFECTED UNITS: All 2002-2005 VFR800/VFR800A Motorcycles

American Honda is conducting a SAFETY RECALL on affected models per the description above. The recall will correct a defect that exists in the wiring harness of 2002-2005 model year VFR800 motorcycles. In limited circumstances, the ground wire terminals inside the connectors between the main wiring and fairing subharness can overheat, resulting in the melting of the connector and a loss of power to various circuits. As a result, a loss of critical lighting or engine power could occur without warning, which could result in a crash.

Thank you for your cooperation.

American Honda Motor Co., Inc.

https://www.vfrdiscussion.com/forum/index.p...-safety-recall/

 

[bramfrank]

The Honda issue was different in that it affected the connectors used to interface between the main harness and the various sub-harnesses (such as - I presume - the ones that connect the handlebar circuitry to the harness or the ones that connect the tail lighting assembly).

The Yamaha issue is a lot more insidious in that it is the ground connections that are part of the main harness itself - there was no valid reason to actually use a connector at all - they should have done a series of secure splices.

The initial fixes reported in my original thread comprised twisting all of the grounds together and soldering them, then taping them up. Probably a good-enough solution.

But I don't like using vinyl tape in an automotive environment because the adhesive is prone to breakdown over time and it is not waterproof - in fact all of the connectors should have been properly waterproof ones, since this is an unprotected environment exposed to the elements.

But a sealed, properly soldered connection would not suffer this problem in the first place, however solder is brittle and subject to cracking which is why they don't use it as a joining technique in aircraft environments.

The supplementary harness that has been designed is an interesting concept in that it reduces the current load on the upstream connections, but it too does not address the fact that Yamaha (and I suppose every other bike manufacturer) does not use proper, waterproof connectors - so the corrosion aspect could become cause for a secondary point of failure - don't get me started on the issues of the crimped, spring-loaded connections that tie the wiring to the connector in the first place.

 

[iboldguy]

Thanks to everyone involved in researching ...........I see no reason why owners of Gen ll bikes should wait until a catastrophic failure has occured before expressing concerns to Yamaha or Transport Canada (or the US authorities). This is a strong community of sensible people who should not have to simply wait around for disaster to occur.

.................................

Vaughn

[email protected]

I agree. I have filled out the form on Transport Canada web page provided by Bramfrank. I briefly described my concern and referenced the FJRforum site, stated it hasn't happened to me yet and included the quote above. You must be brief since they only allow 500 characters.

It would help if everyone who has experienced the problem with the failed ground connectors, including the US folks, report it to Canada as well as US agency.

 

[vaughn]

Shouldn't this be under IMPORTANT TOPICS links at the top of the Technical/Mechanical main page?

 

[vaughn]

Well.

I contacted Yamaha Canada today. Their official line is that they are not aware of this issue. The customer service rep stated that "it sounds like the ignition switch issue". I

calmly explained that it was a seperate issue involving corroded, failing ground wire issues and that it was widely documented.

She then explained that the dealerships are responsible for these issues on a "case by case basis". My experience with the dealerships is that "there is no issue". The dealerships

will say that if there is an issue, it will be covered under the YES warranty. Most forum members seem to be less concerned with the warranty than the safety implications and/or getting

stranded. I tried to explain the growing concern among the FJR community. She added that Yamaha Canada is not responsible for issues reported in the US. This might imply that

they are aware of problems being reported on the US side but are keeping at arms length.

She did acknowledge that if the potential for this problem existed, it could be worriesome. She understood the safety implications but denied any problem existed.

She was professional and listened well but was unable to acknowledge awareness of any problem.

Please call them with your story. Ask to speak to Scott Harrison (customer service manager).

As Bram has already indicated, this won't be resolved if they don't hear about this very real problem.

Putting it in writing and sending it registered mail will provide the greatest effect.

Head Office

Yamaha Motor Canada Ltd.

480 Gordon Baker Rd.

Toronto, ON

M2H 3B4

(416) 498-1911

Quebec Branch

Yamaha Moteur du Canada Ltee.

1301, rue Ampere

Boucherville, PQ

J4B 5Z5

(450) 641-2602