weekend rider
Well-known member
Helmets with shock absorbers or helmets with air bag impact crash re-action
Full Face helmets may contribute to fatalities?
- Thread starter exskibum
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Fergi
Well-known member
My personal experience with full face helmets is that I went over the handle bars of my 1975 Z1 Kawasaki after being forced in a curb by a '63 Chevy Impala. I landed on my face at something around 50 mph on asphalt. Had it not been for my Bell Star full face helmet my face would have been nothing but raw meat. I have never worn anything but full face since.
(Does this qualify me for the crash icon?)
exskibum
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Hey -- I had a '75 Z1 too, but I didn't crash it.** And when I bought that, I bought the first of my several full face helmets for me and my pillion. In fact, I don't believe I have ever owned anything but a full face motorcycle helmet (before buying the Z1 in '77 I was young and stupid enough not to wear a helmet at all).
I hope no one thinks I posted this because I'm looking for a reason to wring my hands or stop wearing a full face helmet. On a private guitar site I've frequented for 8 or 9 years, a member posted about buying a motorcycle and doing the MSF class. Anal retentive that I am, I raised the ATGATT (including FF helmet) philosophy and posted a link to JB's thread about location of helmet impacts (see first post in this thread with same link). He politely directed me to the study I linked here as one of interest. So I thought I'd throw it out to you Friday dogpilers for some meat to chew on. Lo and behold, Iggy posted an interesting follow up analysis, which, as someone else observed, seems to me to be aimed primarily at facilitating the development of even better helmets.
** Strike that -- I did too. But it was a really minor get off that had me quickly burning through some polyester office pants to bare *** the asphalt, which led to my subsequent religious conversion to wearing gear (CYA, so to speak). That was my last getoff, too -- 1977. My LAST -- and that's why I drop every bike I own: as karmic insurance against new getoffs.
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Groo
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TechJunkie
Well-known member
Bustanut joker
Well-known member
****!............ 97% of the people wearing seat belt survive.
3% Die because they wear 'em
Guess what stat gets the attention..........
* figures are a figment of my imagination and seriously drug influenced brain..(another story for another post) But,
**** will be twisted to get attention.........
:jester:
3% Die because they wear 'em
Guess what stat gets the attention..........
* figures are a figment of my imagination and seriously drug influenced brain..(another story for another post) But,
**** will be twisted to get attention.........
:jester:
Hit the Road Jack
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exskibum
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Hehehe -- yep, that's my take on it, too. I'm a ***** about that kinda extended duration facial pain. I don't have any cavities, and my only real dental work (besides having wisdom teeth removed) was from putting sports equipment in my mouth. On that experience alone, I'd just as soon keep the damn surgeon away from my face. Kinda like how I feel about skin on pavement after having my ex-wife debride the road rash I got through polyester slacks in '77 -- every afternoon after work biting a wash rag and cursing as she scrubbed my rashed *** with a brush and Phisoderm. No thank you! Besides, I'd rather an asphalt face plant kill me than than turn me into a quad with a pulverized face. YMMV
And I was there after madmike2 tried to take out a guard rail with his face just a year ago this week. That full face Shoei saved his life, and I'm sure he'd tell you that he wouldn't want to have head butted that guard rail post with an open face or a beanie. I sure wouldn't want to have come back to see him there if he hadn't been wearing that full face, either. Bad enough to see a friend and riding partner down, even when he is moving all his limbs and looking like he'll recover from the improbable due to wearing quality gear and helmet.
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I had a friend who served on a volunteer rescue squad who whitnessed the effects of a face plant in a concrete drainage ditch with a 3/4 helmet....as you expect no face. The bottom line is motorcycling is dangerous, but you do what you can to be safe and survive an 'oh crap' incident. Pretty soon the motorcyclist is going to look like
sradek
Redbird!!
I understand the physics behind the concept that wearing a FF helmet could result in a broken neck. And there is no doubt that this does occur. The problem is in determining at what rate it occurs.
The statistics are impossible to compile. How could anyone say with absolute certainty that a motorcyclist that suffered a broken neck while wearing a full face helmet would not have still broken his neck if wearing an open face, beanie or no helmet? Just because your face or chin hits the pavement first, instead of the chin bar of a helmet, does not preclude the possibility of the impact snapping your neck. Conversely, what percentage of helmetless or open face riders, not likely to be wearing other protective gear, die due to other injuries that would have died of a broken neck?
Often the ABATE types claim it is the increased weight that is responsible for an increased risk of neck injury. They are technically correct, no doubt. The problem is there is no way to collect accurate statistics to determine what that (minor) increased risk is in comparison to the (major) decreased risk of injury afforded by the better protection of the full face.
As was said above: Some times you just have to use common sense.
The statistics are impossible to compile. How could anyone say with absolute certainty that a motorcyclist that suffered a broken neck while wearing a full face helmet would not have still broken his neck if wearing an open face, beanie or no helmet? Just because your face or chin hits the pavement first, instead of the chin bar of a helmet, does not preclude the possibility of the impact snapping your neck. Conversely, what percentage of helmetless or open face riders, not likely to be wearing other protective gear, die due to other injuries that would have died of a broken neck?
Often the ABATE types claim it is the increased weight that is responsible for an increased risk of neck injury. They are technically correct, no doubt. The problem is there is no way to collect accurate statistics to determine what that (minor) increased risk is in comparison to the (major) decreased risk of injury afforded by the better protection of the full face.
As was said above: Some times you just have to use common sense.
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cougar8000
Well-known member
exskibum and all, my apology for earlier out burst. My comments were towards the article and ABATE solely.
My wife a month ago while we were driving mentioned something about riding with out a helmet. we were moving at 50 at a time. I opened a window and suggested that she sticks her head out to see what it feels like it. She decided not to. Then two weeks ago while on vacation in WI and riding some nice country road it appeared that I was hit in the shoulder by a golf ball size rock. I did not feel it thanks to the jacket, but she said it went right by her face. She said she would never ask about it again
My wife a month ago while we were driving mentioned something about riding with out a helmet. we were moving at 50 at a time. I opened a window and suggested that she sticks her head out to see what it feels like it. She decided not to. Then two weeks ago while on vacation in WI and riding some nice country road it appeared that I was hit in the shoulder by a golf ball size rock. I did not feel it thanks to the jacket, but she said it went right by her face. She said she would never ask about it again
dcarver
Well-known member
The full face may break my neck and kill me but I'll be one good lookin' corpse!
Checkswrecks
Well-known member
What a bait and switch use of numbers. Gee - Do you maybe think the writer has an agenda? This is like saying the risk of dying from a stray coconut impact while walking down the street is bigger if I'm not wearing a helmet. It's probably true, but then the odds of me having that type of encounter where I live without coconut trees is ridiculous.
The fact is that most riders actually come off at 30-ish mph speeds and slide or take glancing blows associated with a low fall, and then comes the subsequent slide. This is why the non-Snell / non-DOT helmets still make the stats so good when comparing with countries like Thailand. But Google up for yourself helmet photos (post-fall) and see how many have chipped paint and scrapes along the chin bar. There's also a graphic related to areas of helmet damaged, but I'm being too lazy right now to go find it to post.
FWIW, I have a full face Shoei and will stick by the approved helmets for my own head. But to say that full face helmets are a threat or whatever is manipulation, because the FF helmets have long proven to protect a bigger population in the types of accidents that the vast majority of riders experience.
Bob
The fact is that most riders actually come off at 30-ish mph speeds and slide or take glancing blows associated with a low fall, and then comes the subsequent slide. This is why the non-Snell / non-DOT helmets still make the stats so good when comparing with countries like Thailand. But Google up for yourself helmet photos (post-fall) and see how many have chipped paint and scrapes along the chin bar. There's also a graphic related to areas of helmet damaged, but I'm being too lazy right now to go find it to post.
FWIW, I have a full face Shoei and will stick by the approved helmets for my own head. But to say that full face helmets are a threat or whatever is manipulation, because the FF helmets have long proven to protect a bigger population in the types of accidents that the vast majority of riders experience.
Bob
Silent
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madmike2
Shtirrenuppenmeister
Exactly the same thought I had!
There should be an estimated speed-at-impact included in their study comparing accident-results/injuries-sustained based on that criteria. I propose there would be a vast difference in gathered results should they be grouped in speed categories (Examples: 20-30 mph; 30-40 mph; 50-60 mph; 70-80 mph, etc.).
Secondarily to that, the study would need to include the type of impact. For instance, there would need to be a differentiation made for pavement impact versus solid object impact. This would require a supplemental report under each speed, vis a' vis the rider sliding (after the intial "fall") into an immovable object (tree, barricade, parked car, building).
I suspect the number of broken neck/brain-stem-cranial-tear issues are rather minute in 25-35 mph pavement impacts where they might be a greater percentage in 60-70 mph motorcycle crashes when the rider impacted an automobile or slid on the pavement and impacted a tree or guard rail support beam with his (or her) helmet.
Then one would want to compare data with similar crashes where the rider was wearing an open face (or beanie-style) helmet before making a postulation.
EDIT: As for me and my house.....all motorcycling is done wearing full face helmets.
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Big-D
Well-known member
The helmet issue will never be completely solved. Depending on who you talk with, you’re sure to get different answers and opinions regarding open-faced and full-coverage, even from the so-called experts.
Take into consideration that either helmet may protect your head (to a certain degree). Just like wearing full leathers or other protective gear can save your hide. When you see a Super Bike rider high-side in a turn at 80+mph and he gets up and walks away, it’s not only his gear that is allowing that, it’s the terrain. If you go down on the street, it’s usually because you just hit or got hit by a car or truck and as you slide across the road, you will probably stop by hitting a post, curb, rail or other immovable object. And that is only if you’re lucky by not being thrown into other traffic. Like falling, its not the fall that gets you, it’s the sudden stop at the end that rips your aorta from your heart and you bleed out in seconds, leaving your head and it’s contents fully intact.
Go for it!! Wear whatever you want!
Take into consideration that either helmet may protect your head (to a certain degree). Just like wearing full leathers or other protective gear can save your hide. When you see a Super Bike rider high-side in a turn at 80+mph and he gets up and walks away, it’s not only his gear that is allowing that, it’s the terrain. If you go down on the street, it’s usually because you just hit or got hit by a car or truck and as you slide across the road, you will probably stop by hitting a post, curb, rail or other immovable object. And that is only if you’re lucky by not being thrown into other traffic. Like falling, its not the fall that gets you, it’s the sudden stop at the end that rips your aorta from your heart and you bleed out in seconds, leaving your head and it’s contents fully intact.
Go for it!! Wear whatever you want!
I've got the cure, but I'm working out pattent and production issues to bring it to the marketplace
Well, sure, that's an awesome design. But being men, don't you think we'd look a little bit silly wearing sequined tank tops?
bikerskier
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Well, from their posts, it would appear that there are a number of contibutors to this Forum, that may well wear sequins. If not in their day time jobs, likely in their evening activities. :yahoo:
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