Full system exhaust

[RiderCoach Lar]

I have a wild idea: how about we show bryguy322 a little respect for his original post and keep this thread on track rather than hijack it and make it a debate over "loud pipes". There's plenty of room in the NEPRT section to start a new thread about something as subjective as that!

What is the sound difference between a single and dual exhaust? Is the single a little more buzzy bee sounding?

That's a decent way of describing it, however, when you're talking about the FJR, it's one big-*** throaty bee!!! For me, I just prefer the look of the dual exhaust over a single one.

 

[2WheelTiger]

Larry's right. The sound issue is more of a personal choice than a social one. We add mega windshields to eliminate wind buffeting. We buy quiet helmets and we use ear plugs. Then we add a mega exhaust.

Don't get me wrong, I like a little bit of a throaty growl when I'm in the throttle. I like Shelby 500s over 6 cylinder 'stangs for the same reason. It's a basic elemental animal growl. "Fear me, for I am powerful."

But the systems that simply scream "antisocial pretender" like the big-twin open pipes, or a slightly used D&D (worst POS sytems on the planet), just say 'juvenile' to me. They scream "Look at me, girls!".

Techically, there is no inherent difference between single and dual side systems as far as sound is concerned. Either can be loud. Either can be quiet. But there is a physical requirement for a single muffler system to have a larger outlet than a dual muffler system, just so the gasses will make it through without additional restriction. A larger opening generally means more noise.

I've already contacted Area P about fabbing a muffler to attach to the Muzzy. It would be a custom length for less noise and would have a minimized outlet, but at a cost of $350 for just the muffler, I'm not inclined to do the mod.

And the length being suggested? How about C14 size!

So now it's a decision between lightweight and noisy, or heavyweight and quiet. I wish I could have both at a reasonable price.

 

[Spook]

I condone support people not being such asshats about what other people ride. There are a lot of other people out there that think our bike have way more horsepower than we need to do 75 miles an hour down the interstate. NOW why in the world do you need a bike capable of doing 150 you offend me with your having the need for a bike with sooooo much excessive power.

Are you, then, in favor of 'antisocial behavior', generally -- or, just certain aggressions against society?

Would you be in favor of rules that: "Let me do my thing as long as it doesn't affect you"?

Would it be OK -- if people just kept-their-nose-out-of-it and let the Police sort it all out?

Is your motorcycle ownership your "statement" vehicle....?

Every one has their own Idea of what is antisocial. It is only people like you who want to impose you ideas on every one else. As far a what my motorcycle ownership means to me, it is what it has meant since 1965 and it is not of your damn business unless you are a friend or associate of mine which you are not and with your attitude will probably never be.. Now why do you need a bike that can break the speed limit by at least twice. You should only need a vespa for your purposes.

 

[charismaticmegafauna]

I condone support people not being such asshats about what other people ride. There are a lot of other people out there that think our bike have way more horsepower than we need to do 75 miles an hour down the interstate. NOW why in the world do you need a bike capable of doing 150 you offend me with your having the need for a bike with sooooo much excessive power.

Are you, then, in favor of 'antisocial behavior', generally -- or, just certain aggressions against society?

Would you be in favor of rules that: "Let me do my thing as long as it doesn't affect you"?

Would it be OK -- if people just kept-their-nose-out-of-it and let the Police sort it all out?

Is your motorcycle ownership your "statement" vehicle....?

Every one has their own Idea of what is antisocial.

And what, pray tell, is yours? Do you consider adding to 'noise pollution' a social activity?

It is only people like you who want to impose you ideas on every one else. As far a what my motorcycle ownership means to me, it is what it has meant since 1965 and it is not of your damn business unless you are a friend or associate of mine which you are not and with your attitude will probably never be..

"People like me..."? :blink: With your threatening, bullying, attitude -- I'm rather glad not to be an acquaintance. Do you carry-over that pernicious posture into your motorcycling?

Now why do you need a bike that can break the speed limit by at least twice. You should only need a vespa for your purposes.

Few actually need a motorcycle.

And..., a Vespa (Piaggio) 500 could be considered a viable alternative for some FJR owners:

 

[Spook]

double

 

[Spook]

I condone support people not being such asshats about what other people ride. There are a lot of other people out there that think our bike have way more horsepower than we need to do 75 miles an hour down the interstate. NOW why in the world do you need a bike capable of doing 150 you offend me with your having the need for a bike with sooooo much excessive power.

Are you, then, in favor of 'antisocial behavior', generally -- or, just certain aggressions against society?

Would you be in favor of rules that: "Let me do my thing as long as it doesn't affect you"?

Would it be OK -- if people just kept-their-nose-out-of-it and let the Police sort it all out?

Is your motorcycle ownership your "statement" vehicle....?

Every one has their own Idea of what is antisocial.

And what, pray tell, is yours? Do you consider adding to 'noise pollution' a social activity?

It is only people like you who want to impose you ideas on every one else. As far a what my motorcycle ownership means to me, it is what it has meant since 1965 and it is not of your damn business unless you are a friend or associate of mine which you are not and with your attitude will probably never be..

"People like me..."? :blink: With your threatening, bullying, attitude -- I'm rather glad not to be an acquaintance. Do you carry-over that pernicious posture into your motorcycling?

Now why do you need a bike that can break the speed limit by at least twice. You should only need a vespa for your purposes.

Few actually need a motorcycle.

And..., a Vespa (Piaggio) 500 could be considered a viable alternative for some FJR owners:

Poor baby I am sorry that you feel bullied. Must be hard to ride with such thin skin. It is not I that want to force others to conform with my ideas it is you who want all others to conform to yours now who is the bull?. Now go home to mommy and have her buy you that vespa that you are so proud of It fits you much better then the FJR.

 

[Wicked Webby]

Is anyone using and is happy with a different header that maintains the dual pipes?

I think there's only 3 options for FJR headers:

1. Stock (4-2-1-2)
2. Holeshot (4-2)
3. Muzzy (4-2-1)

Don't forget the 4th header option,

The best in my opinion. A Catless stock header. It is cheap and easy to do (all it takes is a cutting wheel and a bit of welding). This option retains the stock 02 bung, for those of us that use a wideband 02 for tuning. Also, no expanding of pipes needed to fit the Remus or other slip-ons. My educated guess is that it will perform just as well as the Holeshot/Muzzy headers. Weight is not a consideration either... Considering that both of the after market headers are made out of stainless and not titanium.

https://www.fjrowners.ws/discus/messages/9/...html?1116070642

WW

 

[FJR919]

Is anyone using and is happy with a different header that maintains the dual pipes?

I think there's only 3 options for FJR headers:

1. Stock (4-2-1-2)
2. Holeshot (4-2)
3. Muzzy (4-2-1)

Don't forget the 4th header option,

The best in my opinion. A Catless stock header. It is cheap and easy to do (all it takes is a cutting wheel and a bit of welding). This option retains the stock 02 bung, for those of us that use a wideband 02 for tuning. Also, no expanding of pipes needed to fit the Remus or other slip-ons. My educated guess is that it will perform just as well as the Holeshot/Muzzy headers. Weight is not a consideration either... Considering that both of the after market headers are made out of stainless and not titanium.

WW

Well, I'll chime in with my 2 cents. My beef with the Holeshot header is that the primary pipe diameters are larger than stock and there is no crossover pipe/common plenum. This results in reduced low end torque from the larger pipe diameter and a louder exhaust with less flow capability because each cylinder has only one muffler to reduce noise instead of the greater flow afforded by all the pipes connecting and two mufflers to flow through. I was talking with Dale when he was designing the header and questioned why a larger pipe diameter and his response was that he couldn't get the correct metric size so he sized up in SAE. He didn't give me a good answer why he was not using a crossover pipe; just something about added cost and complexity.

I was hoping for a well designed performance exhaust and IMHO the Holeshot is not it. I am not familiar with the Muzzy, but in theory a well designed 4 into 1 header would yield the most power assuming the collector is designed properly.

On Gen II FZ1s a good aftermarket header will yield much greater power than a decatted stock header primarily because the cat does not allow for a performance collector. Ivan has proven this to be so.

That being said, I agree the decatted exhaust is the best option. It could probably be improved by using pipes within the cat shells and then a small crossover between the banks with a pipe 75% of that pipe diameter. That shell/plenum would also lend itself to the new style "X" crossovers which have become popular on cars.

 

[UselessPickles]

Don't forget the 4th header option,
The best in my opinion. A Catless stock header.

...

My educated guess is that it will perform just as well as the Holeshot/Muzzy headers.

There's one way to find out for sure. The only difference between our bikes when I'm done will be the header and fuel tuning system. We might have to arrange to meet up somewhere that we can get dyno charts for our bikes at the same place on the same day

 

[Wicked Webby]

Don't forget the 4th header option,
The best in my opinion. A Catless stock header.

...

My educated guess is that it will perform just as well as the Holeshot/Muzzy headers.

There's one way to find out for sure. The only difference between our bikes when I'm done will be the header and fuel tuning system. We might have to arrange to meet up somewhere that we can get dyno charts for our bikes at the same place on the same day

Pickles,

I am all about that. It would be neat to see the (if any) difference.

Let me know,

WW

 

[v65]

This results in reduced low end torque

Is that why I can only find the dyno chart for the slip-ons?

 

[FJR919]

This results in reduced low end torque

Is that why I can only find the dyno chart for the slip-ons?

That was always my assumption.

 

[s_boy]

This comparison might be useful: down under comparo. No muzzy system though.

nice comparo - regarding tone - i definitely like the leos best and the holeshots close 2nd!

 

[RiderCoach Lar]

Well, I'll chime in with my 2 cents. My beef with the Holeshot header is that the primary pipe diameters are larger than stock and there is no crossover pipe/common plenum. This results in reduced low end torque from the larger pipe diameter and a louder exhaust with less flow capability because each cylinder has only one muffler to reduce noise instead of the greater flow afforded by all the pipes connecting and two mufflers to flow through. I was talking with Dale when he was designing the header and questioned why a larger pipe diameter and his response was that he couldn't get the correct metric size so he sized up in SAE. He didn't give me a good answer why he was not using a crossover pipe; just something about added cost and complexity.
I was hoping for a well designed performance exhaust and IMHO the Holeshot is not it.

Dude, you HAVE to further explain how the smaller diameter, more restrictive, stock exhaust system affords more flow capability than the larger diameter Holeshot system simply because it incorporates a crossover pipe.....especially at low-to-moderate rpms?!?! I don't know what kind of comparisons you've done between stock and the Holeshot system, but my seat-of-the-pants comparison tells me I'm not giving up a thing in terms of low end torque.

I believe added cost is a VERY good reason for not using a crossover pipe. The system is on the high side of affordable as is. If you know of a better designed, more affordable system available for the FJR, we're all ears. If you can design AND produce a better system for the FJR that is also affordable, there's quite obviously a hell of a demand.

Is the Holeshot system perfect? Absolutely not. But given the severely limited choice of available systems, it's kinda tough to beat....and obviously easy to criticize

 

[v65]

Dude, you HAVE to further explain how the smaller diameter, more restrictive, stock exhaust system affords more flow capability than the larger diameter Holeshot system simply because it incorporates a crossover pipe.....especially at low-to-moderate rpms?!?!

I think you misread what is being said. If the amount of exhaust is constant, then a larger exhaust pipe will be able to expel the gases more quickly, but the flow rate of the smaller pipe will be greater. At lower rpms, where the smaller pipe is able to keep up with the flow and completely expel the gases, the higher flow rate is desirable since the intake valve overlaps the exhaust valve opening: the high flow rate helps bring in fresh air. So smaller pipes are generally better at lower rpms than larger pipes.

On the flip side with the smaller pipe you lose some high rpm power since the pipe is not able to flow out the exhaust gases fast enough. A crossover pipe can ameliorate some of that problem by giving an alternate path for the gases to follow. So a smaller pipe with a crossover can be a best of both worlds situation on a motor with a wide powerband like the FJR. Having no experience with designing such a system it seems like a black art to me because you get into issues of tuning where the crossover pipe goes by the exhaust pulses.

 

[Wicked Webby]

I think you misread what is being said. If the amount of exhaust is constant, then a larger exhaust pipe will be able to expel the gases more quickly, but the flow rate of the smaller pipe will be greater. At lower rpms, where the smaller pipe is able to keep up with the flow and completely expel the gases, the higher flow rate is desirable since the intake valve overlaps the exhaust valve opening: the high flow rate helps bring in fresh air. So smaller pipes are generally better at lower rpms than larger pipes.
On the flip side with the smaller pipe you lose some high rpm power since the pipe is not able to flow out the exhaust gases fast enough. A crossover pipe can ameliorate some of that problem by giving an alternate path for the gases to follow. So a smaller pipe with a crossover can be a best of both worlds situation on a motor with a wide powerband like the FJR. Having no experience with designing such a system it seems like a black art to me because you get into issues of tuning where the crossover pipe goes by the exhaust pulses.

Very well put,

Webby

 

[bryguy322]

Dude, you HAVE to further explain how the smaller diameter, more restrictive, stock exhaust system affords more flow capability than the larger diameter Holeshot system simply because it incorporates a crossover pipe.....especially at low-to-moderate rpms?!?!

I think you misread what is being said. If the amount of exhaust is constant, then a larger exhaust pipe will be able to expel the gases more quickly, but the flow rate of the smaller pipe will be greater. At lower rpms, where the smaller pipe is able to keep up with the flow and completely expel the gases, the higher flow rate is desirable since the intake valve overlaps the exhaust valve opening: the high flow rate helps bring in fresh air. So smaller pipes are generally better at lower rpms than larger pipes.

On the flip side with the smaller pipe you lose some high rpm power since the pipe is not able to flow out the exhaust gases fast enough. A crossover pipe can ameliorate some of that problem by giving an alternate path for the gases to follow. So a smaller pipe with a crossover can be a best of both worlds situation on a motor with a wide powerband like the FJR. Having no experience with designing such a system it seems like a black art to me because you get into issues of tuning where the crossover pipe goes by the exhaust pulses.

If all that is true, and i'm by no means an expert in that field so I can only guess, then it sounds like the best option would be to cut the cats out of the stock header as WW did. Probably quite a bit cheaper too, although more work. I would definately be interested in seeing the results if WW and UselessPickles get together to do a comparison.

 

[charismaticmegafauna]

Dude, you HAVE to further explain how the smaller diameter, more restrictive, stock exhaust system affords more flow capability than the larger diameter Holeshot system simply because it incorporates a crossover pipe.....especially at low-to-moderate rpms?!?!

I think you misread what is being said. If the amount of exhaust is constant, then a larger exhaust pipe will be able to expel the gases more quickly, but the flow rate of the smaller pipe will be greater. At lower rpms, where the smaller pipe is able to keep up with the flow and completely expel the gases, the higher flow rate is desirable since the intake valve overlaps the exhaust valve opening: the high flow rate helps bring in fresh air. So smaller pipes are generally better at lower rpms than larger pipes.

On the flip side with the smaller pipe you lose some high rpm power since the pipe is not able to flow out the exhaust gases fast enough. A crossover pipe can ameliorate some of that problem by giving an alternate path for the gases to follow. So a smaller pipe with a crossover can be a best of both worlds situation on a motor with a wide powerband like the FJR. Having no experience with designing such a system it seems like a black art to me because you get into issues of tuning where the crossover pipe goes by the exhaust pulses.

If all that is true,

Many are the Japanese custom/cruiser motorcycles with 'manly-looking' large diameter chrome exhaust pipes exiting the cylinder head for show-room sales success. Inside those big chrome pipes are the 'finger ~ thumb diameter' pipes needed for good performance...!

No one's the wiser -- everyone's happy (if it makes noise -- that is...)

 

[SkooterG]

Poor baby I am sorry that you feel bullied. Must be hard to ride with such thin skin. It is not I that want to force others to conform with my ideas it is you who want all others to conform to yours now who is the bull?. Now go home to mommy and have her buy you that vespa that you are so proud of It fits you much better then the FJR.

YOU, need to go peruse forum guideline #5. Failure to do so will be at your peril.

If you can't state your opinion without personal attacks and name calling, then DON'T state it.

As for the topic, did Muzzy finally REALLY fix their cornering clearance issue? I have heard mixed opinions on that.

 

[Cdogman]

Skooter, Yes they fixed it.. Of that I am 100% sure hands down BTDT and got the T'Shirt. I have been all they way over, with perfect form mind you ;-) .. but all the way over and loaded hard in a turn.... It dont drag no mo. I have hit my stock header prior tho, there is a picture here somewhere from back in the day

Now!!!!!!

Howwwwlly Crap guys

OK, FOR ME,, I have had the Holeshot cans stock headers and now run a full 421 Muzzy Titanium system.

The reason I went with the muzzy is because it is different. It is louder but Muzzy makes a quiet core for it, that i do not have, because I am half deaf and could not give a **** about the noise volume. I listen to my ipod when I ride with some nice ER6i earphones.

Performance cannot be compared because I had stock headers with my Holeshots. I have more performance with my muzzy but that is not apples to apples since I have the full system this time.

Had I not had a getoff and had to replace my system I would have added the header system to the holeshot and been totally happy.

Everyone has their own preference.. I wanted to save weights as well.

FWIW the aftermarket stuff is WAY!!!!!! cheaper than the OEM stuff.. Last I looked the OEM headers and cans were 2300 bucks for a complete set. My muzzy was about 1250 ish I think.. Perhaps a bit more but I dont really remember. Its been a while

So, as far as "Loud Pipes" crowd... FUKIN PLEASE!!!! The muzzy aint **** compared to the piped HD's out there.. I dont run the quiet core because I dont want to spend the money for it since i dont give a **** about the noise I cannot hear anyway < pretty simple huh

FOR ME!!! the stock FJR sounds like a mouse farting in a tin can.

The good news is I stayed at a holiday in express