Get your FJR's guts balanced

[gasman]

Talking of vibrations, check this out. I know, I know it's been posted before.

https://cycletownusa.com/HarleyInetcycletown.htm

 

[Dangerous Dave]

@Dangerous DaveThanks for the tips.  Do you think that  a Falicon crank job and knife edge connectors would make the FJR too radical for street use?

New clue to the vibration.  If I stand on the foot pegs there is alot of vibration.  However if I touch the end of the foot peg and push inward, Like spurring a horse,  there is no felt vibration.  To me this means that the vibration is in the vertical plane.

The Yamaha rep, from the factory, rode the  bike yesterday for about 1hr.  When he came back he would only tell me 3 things that he "didnt like about this bike".

1. He said, "the bike feels Lazy" he swiped his finger around the exhaust pipe and said that it was running rich due to the black exhause residue.

2. He said, "I dont like the Power Commanders" and added that he wanted me to remove it so he could ride the bike again and see if there was any difference.  I told him that I could just put the 000map in.  He said NO, "I dont even want it connected".  To me this was a Red Flag.  I dont know if he said that because that is what he has been trained to say or if he actually knows his ****. 

3.  He said, "He wants the Yamaha shop mechanic to loosen the motormounts and let the engine settle then retorque everything".  This is the only thing that made sense to me.

I told him that I wanted to try the motormount idea first.  The power commander seems to work OK for bringing down the engine heat, two bars usually at cruise.  Although I do realize that a very minimal black pipe residue is not optimal for performance.  I figure then I could get the bike tuned on a dyno for best performance.

All very interesting stuff...here's my take.

Falicon crank too radical?? No way! It would be awesome...just overkill. If you have alot of money that you need an excuse to piss away, go for it. I'm sure you'd like the results, but like I said, it's overkill, and unnecesary.

The standing on the footpeg thing I don't think has nearly as much to do with what plane the vibration is in as it does with the amount of force you can exert. The footpegs attach to the frame side plates, with a motor mount right below. Unless you've been doing overtime on the wife's "ThighMaster", I doubt you can exert nearly as much torsional force on the pegs/frame/motor-mounts by pushing in, as you can by standing on them.

As for the Yami rep and his assessment of your bike; Most factory reps are NOT mechanically inclined, and what they appear to know, they've learned by osmosis. However, in his defense, anytime you have a strange problem with something that's typically pretty bulletproof...you ALWAYS look at the aftermarket add-ons first. And if I were him I would not accept the zero map as the same as detachment either.

Now for the whole loosen the motor mounts and let everything settle, I say BINGO! And shame on the mechanic who didn't try that first! I'd loosen all the motor mounts (and exhaust hangers), grab the bars and shake the **** out of the bike, by wagging the bars back and forth rapidly. Then retorque everything, starting with the motor-mounts, and see what you've got.

I hope they get this sorted out for you.

 

[FJRottie]

I'd loosen all the motor mounts (and exhaust hangers)

So are you talking about just 6 mounting bolts (2 front right, 2 front left and 1 left upper rear and 1 right lower rear), or are you including the engine bracket with the 3 short bolts ??

The exhaust, just forward bolts on the spliter and bolts on the can ??

Or am I way off ?

 

[DocDanDC]

@Dangerous Dave:

Thanks for the Info. I will tell them to do the motormount thing first. I wonder if there is a special order to torque the bolts in, like Lug Nuts on a car- star pattern.

Dan

 

[panthercity]

Bear in mind that the balance shaft is designed to work with the reciprocating mass of the stock crank, rods, pistons, etc. If you alter that reciprocating mass, the balancer will be somewhere between useless and detrimental.

 

[Dangerous Dave]

So are you talking about just 6 mounting bolts (2 front right, 2 front left and 1 left upper rear and 1 right lower rear), or are you including the engine bracket with the 3 short bolts ??The exhaust, just forward bolts on the spliter and bolts on the can ??

Or am I way off ?

You're definately not way off, but unless I missed it in your description you missed something that looks fairly critical to me...especially given the the whole "footpeg" thing. That would be the two bolts that pinch the frame around the lower right rear motor mount bolt. It certainly 'looks' like they could have a pretty significant impact on how the motor sits in the frame. As for the rest of the bolts you've mentioned, I haven't actually taken a head count on them. It was those frame pinch bolts that really caught my eye after the Doc's comment about weighting the footpeg.

I've had more than a few vehicles in the shop with abnormal vibrations. Most of the time it's a result of something out of place and making contact where it shouldn't, providing a transmission path for the vibration. But many times, the simple act of loosening all the motor mount bolts, revving the engine a few times, and tightening everything back down solves the problem. I will say though that most often this is the cure when the vehicle has been 'apart' for something (ie: collision repair, or engine/trans replacement). But you never know. The basic rules still apply.

YMMV,

 

[radman]

So are you talking about just 6 mounting bolts (2 front right, 2 front left and 1 left upper rear and 1 right lower rear), or are you including the engine bracket with the 3 short bolts ??The exhaust, just forward bolts on the spliter and bolts on the can ??

Or am I way off ?

You're definately not way off, but unless I missed it in your description you missed something that looks fairly critical to me...especially given the the whole "footpeg" thing. That would be the two bolts that pinch the frame around the lower right rear motor mount bolt. It certainly 'looks' like they could have a pretty significant impact on how the motor sits in the frame. As for the rest of the bolts you've mentioned, I haven't actually taken a head count on them. It was those frame pinch bolts that really caught my eye after the Doc's comment about weighting the footpeg.

I've had more than a few vehicles in the shop with abnormal vibrations. Most of the time it's a result of something out of place and making contact where it shouldn't, providing a transmission path for the vibration. But many times, the simple act of loosening all the motor mount bolts, revving the engine a few times, and tightening everything back down solves the problem. I will say though that most often this is the cure when the vehicle has been 'apart' for something (ie: collision repair, or engine/trans replacement). But you never know. The basic rules still apply.

YMMV,

We had a Windstar in the shop with a horrendous vibration. Your story of the shell brought back this memory. It also had a terrible shock transmitted through the chassis when leaving a stop. Sure enough, a rock had wedged itself in a tranny mount, transmitting any vibration and engine/trans movement into the subframe. It took some time to locate this little *******, but taught all a valuable lesson. We found it after 17 billable hours of diagnostics and fruitless repair eliminating everything possible under the sun. We are not alone in chasing the weird ones, however. A new 06 Malibu developed an annoying fluttering metal sound eminating from the left front of the car. Being under warranty, it was up to Chev to figure it out. 3 dealerships failed, replacing the

steering rack

all motor/trans mounts

steering column

power steering pump

left spindle/caliper/drive axle/wheel/tire/wheel cover

strut/lower control arm

rack again

column again

drive axle again

Gm finally sent 2 engineers as the car was in the process of being lemoned out. A complete disassembly or the front clip revealed a misaligned and spot welded left inner fender well/firewall assembly. 10 minutes with a grinder and a bucks worth of welding rod fixed it. Total estimated cost-in excess of $15,000. Ya just never know........... :bigeyes:

 

[Dangerous Dave]

Bear in mind that the balance shaft is designed to work with the reciprocating mass of the stock crank, rods, pistons, etc. If you alter that reciprocating mass, the balancer will be somewhere between useless and detrimental.
I don't have to love George Bush to love my country!

You know, I don't think that's as big an issue as you think. The balance shafts are there to create a counter force to the engine's natural rocking forces. I don't think the weight is nearly as critical as the timing. In fact, I believe that Falicon says you can actually remove the balance shafts on most engines after having a complete bottom end balance and blueprint. THAT is where alot of guys pick up extra hp after a Falicon job. The lightening makes it spin up quicker, but removal of the balance shaft means one less thing to spin internally. Useless? Yes. Detrimental? No. A Falicon job will improve the balance of the engine, not upset it. But I still say it's major overkill for an FJR.

BTW, I love the sig line.

 

[madmike2]

@Dangerous DaveThanks for the tips. Do you think that a Falicon crank job and knife edge connectors would make the FJR too radical for street use?

New clue to the vibration. If I stand on the foot pegs there is alot of vibration. However if I touch the end of the foot peg and push inward, Like spurring a horse, there is no felt vibration. To me this means that the vibration is in the vertical plane.

The Yamaha rep, from the factory, rode the bike yesterday for about 1hr. When he came back he would only tell me 3 things that he "didnt like about this bike".

1. He said, "the bike feels Lazy" he swiped his finger around the exhaust pipe and said that it was running rich due to the black exhause residue.

2. He said, "I dont like the Power Commanders" and added that he wanted me to remove it so he could ride the bike again and see if there was any difference. I told him that I could just put the 000map in. He said NO, "I dont even want it connected". To me this was a Red Flag. I dont know if he said that because that is what he has been trained to say or if he actually knows his ****.

3. He said, "He wants the Yamaha shop mechanic to loosen the motormounts and let the engine settle then retorque everything". This is the only thing that made sense to me.

I told him that I wanted to try the motormount idea first. The power commander seems to work OK for bringing down the engine heat, two bars usually at cruise. Although I do realize that a very minimal black pipe residue is not optimal for performance. I figure then I could get the bike tuned on a dyno for best performance.

The first thing Yamaha is going to want is the bike in "stock" trim. They do not want to spend time and money analyzing farkles/add-ons. So, pull it off, return everything to normal and let them fix it.

Personally, I am +1 on the motormount solution. They'll need to pull the bodywork off and they will give it a "once-over" while the bike is exposed. Be sure and keep us updated on what they find.

 

[DocDanDC]

BTW, the local Yamaha shop mechanic already adjusted the FJR's balancers to try to fix the Vibrations. It changed a little but for the worse now.

 

[DocDanDC]

I will keep all the FJR Bros posted on the findings for sure.

 

[madmike2]

At least they're trying to make good. That's a big plus.

 

[DocDanDC]

Sooner or later I WILL have it fixed. The waiting is the only price I have paid so far. The system is still working. The vibration is literally the only thing about the FJR that I dont like.

 

[panthercity]

...
I don't have to love George Bush to love my country!

BTW, I love the sig line.

Thank ewe, thank ewe verry much...

You know, I don't think that's as big an issue as you think.  The balance shafts are there to create a counter force to the engine's natural rocking forces.  I don't think the weight is nearly as critical as the timing.  In fact, I believe that Falicon says you can actually remove the balance shafts on most engines after having a complete bottom end balance and blueprint.  THAT is where alot of guys pick up extra hp after a Falicon job.  The lightening makes it spin up quicker, but removal of the balance shaft means one less thing to spin internally.  Useless?  Yes.  Detrimental?  No.  A Falicon job will improve the balance of the engine, not upset it.  But I still say it's major overkill for an FJR.   

Overkill, uh huh. Detrimental in that using the stock counterbalncer with a modified crank/rod/piston throws the whole "counter balancer" concept off if the reciprocating masses are not in equlibrium. Change either the mass or the timing of one and the other will be off kilter in the other.

Oh, and as for why racers remove the parasitic counter balancers, well, duh...

 

[DocDanDC]

The latest scoop. Yamaha took off the bar end weights and slider kit from Motovation USA. They also took off the Power Commander. They unbolted the motormounts, let the engine settel then retorqued them again. IT MADE NO DIFFERENCE AT ALL!

The next thing is that YAMAHA Factory Rep is going to ride it again. BONE STOCK.

Sooner or later they will have to get the guts balanced. Maybe it would be cool to get a new '06 motor from them. I think that it would fit on my '05 based on what I've heard.

:agent:

 

[madmike2]

Hmmmmm. Well, if it has the same issues in "stock" trim, it looks like they are gong to have to open it up. It is possible they will replace the engine assembly. In the long run, probably cheaper to R&R an engine, then send the other back to Yamaha to find out why. Thanks for the update. We'll be standing by to hear the "rest of the story"! Hopefully this will be rectified by the time the riding season is fully open.

 

[DocDanDC]

Rode the FJR tonight for about 1 hour. I would say 80% reduction in the vibration!

The bike has been put back to bone stock. No power commander, rides 2 bars hotter. No Sliders or bar end weights. The motormounts have been retorqued.

Now we are going to start adding things back and see if the vibrations return.

We think that the main problem was that the motormounts were not torqued enough. The other thing is that when I put the sliders (no cut style from Motovation USA), they should have been torqued on the left side first then the right side. Apparently, the left side dosnt have the bolt sleeves and pulls the motor over close to the frame. The right side has the bold sleeves and gets torqued last so it wont pull the motor over. (or thats how it was explained anyhow). It is likely that there was a small problem in the order of torque that made the vibration happen. I knew that it was better after I hit second gear 100 ft down the dealership driveway.

Has anyone heard of this before?

:blink: :clap: :eh: :dribble:

 

[radman]

Rode the FJR tonight for about 1 hour. I would say 80% reduction in the vibration!
The bike has been put back to bone stock. No power commander, rides 2 bars hotter. No Sliders or bar end weights. The motormounts have been retorqued.

Now we are going to start adding things back and see if the vibrations return.

We think that the main problem was that the motormounts were not torqued enough. The other thing is that when I put the sliders (no cut style from Motovation USA), they should have been torqued on the left side first then the right side. Apparently, the left side dosnt have the bolt sleeves and pulls the motor over close to the frame. The right side has the bold sleeves and gets torqued last so it wont pull the motor over. (or thats how it was explained anyhow). It is likely that there was a small problem in the order of torque that made the vibration happen. I knew that it was better after I hit second gear 100 ft down the dealership driveway.

Has anyone heard of this before?

:blink: :clap: :eh: :dribble:

Yes I have. I took a quick survey of all the guys I know bought a Feej from the same dealer I did. Most had 2nd gear at 100 feet, some (including me) had third.

 

[Shadowfax]

Has anyone done a write up of retorquing the engine mounts?

 

[DocDanDC]

I have never seen any Posts for proper order, location, or torque ammounts for the FJR. I would be very interested to know though.

Anyone out there know the scoop?? :reading: