Good article on Gas, octane, and Ethanol

[Fred H.]

This article just confirms what I have found to be true. I drive 10 miles out of town to get gas without ethanol in it. One of my cars stalls and hesitates whenever I put ethanol in it and I litterally can not use it in that vehicle.

https://www.motorcycleperf.com/tectip.htm

 

[Bearly Flying]

Good article, Thanks Fred.

Ethonal blends are also hard on any rubber hoses or rubber components in the fuel system. Tends to make them brittle and crack.

 

[FJRMGM]

I beg to differ - my 05 FJR gets just as good or BETTER mileage and performance on 10 percent ethanol blend.

Could be it's just better than the MTBE-laden smog blend we used to use in Houston?

Also, I used to live in Iowa, where I/they have been using ethanol blends since about 1978 - never had one problem with ethanol other than it would separate from the gasoline at temps down around zero degrees.

 

[jestal]

gone

 

[evil_henchman]

Those guys are presenting some misinformation in their gasoline article.
Specifically, the octane rating of the fuel is indeed the fuel's resisitence to detonation BUT the octane rating has absolutely NOTHING to do with the fuel's burn rate. Higher octane fuel does NOT burn slower. Pure BS. Octane rating has absolutely NOTHING to do with the burn rate of the fuel as they state. Makes me question anything else they write regarding gasoline.

Methanol will certainly degrade plastic and rubber lines and fuel system components but ethanol is pretty benign to fuel system parts at low concentrations.

There is no real reason to suspect fuel that is 10% ethanol as the source of poor driveability or degraded performance. It is more likely the poor or degraded gasoline base stock that has been spiked with ethanol to raise the octane rating that is the problem. That gasoline would have poor driveability in most anything with or without the ethanol.

Really, there is no reason to avoid ethanol in fuel in low concentrations like 5 or 10 %. In older, non-O2/non-closed loop engines the 5% leaness caused by 10% ethanol fuel could theoretically cause lean driveablity issues but it is hard to imagine an engine that is in the proper state of tune that would be that sensitive. Most open loop engines have plenty of air/fuel range cushion in terms of driveability. Closed loop engines inherently correct for the slight leaness imparted by the ethanol in the fuel so it is a non-issue.

+1 The only other "oxygenator" I know of besides ethanol is MTBE and it's every bit as hard on old rubber not designed to withstand it. When MTBE was first put in gas here in CA there was a rash of engine fires as a result. I'm pretty confident any rubber fuel system component you buy now will tolerate ethanol and MTBE. Ethanol will always get a black eye for just the reasons jestal stated because the majors don't use it and you find it only in cut rate stations that have a bad habit of buying cheap off spec product. MTBE relieves the refiners of a major hazardous waste/air emissions problem so of course they'll never promote or even tell the truth about ethanol. Most of what makes MTBE used to be burned in the flares at refineries. With some minor tweeking it becomes an "oxygenator" in gasoline and viola! They win again. It's good to be big oil :angry:

 

[ionbeam]

There is no real reason to suspect fuel that is 10% ethanol as the source of poor driveability or degraded performance

Ethanol is hydrophilic and hygroscopic therefore creates an opportunity for water to become absorbed. Given a bad confluence between humidity, rain and changing temperatures ethanol can suck up moisture pretty good. Heck, it's a prime ingredient in some 'dry gas' products. Most fuel delivery systems from the distributor (e.g. Mobil, Texaco, et al) to the gas stations are pretty good about being closed system these days so water contamination is less of a problem. As your vehicle draws down the tank atmospheric air/water gets drawn into the tank and ethanol will combine with it right away. You're fine until the motorcycle sits for a while and the temperature drops. At this point ethanol may release some of the water and it will pool right at the fuel pickup.

Those guys are presenting some misinformation in their gasoline article.

+1
Here in New England MTBE was legislated in by most states. Now that MTBE is found in a large percentage of wells it is being legislated out. Bye bye and it can't be any too soon.

Edit for Fred: My former Furd's fuel system was designed so that water was drawn to my fuel filter like a magnet. My filter would saturate with water so severely that my car would often not start during the winters 'cuse the H2O would freeze. Grrrr. I always carried a spare fuel filter.

 

[Fred H.]

Well, my biggest problem with ethanol is the fact that it is hygroscopic. I think most of the problems I experience with it, are due to it absorbing water or breaking down. I pulled off the gas filter on my car after it started runing poorly when they switched from MTBE to Ethanol here a couple months back, and found it full of water. This happened after the first tank of ethanol was run through it. I had to change the filter again a second time and found water in it again. Under heavy load, with the AC on in Texas heat (above 100 degrees) the car would buck and hesitate at low rpm and high throttle angles. It seemed to get worse with hotter engine temps, and slow traffic (low cooling airflow).

I switched back to regular gas without ethanol and all my problems went away. The car not only runs better with more power and increased gas mileage, but the engine operating temps also have decreased, though I am uncertain if the engine temp decrease is directly related to ethanol, as there may have been other factors involved. However, I think I can say with a good degree of certainty, that the water issue was directly related to ethanol.

All I can tell you is what my experience has been. Ethanol blended gas won't go in any of my vehicles if I can avoid it.

 

[Waaane]

I love reading all this stuff. I even went to an online encyclopedia and read the definitions and explanations of what octane is and why. I checked out ethanol and methanol as well. All in an effort to make a reasonable evaluation of the various arguements posted here. I still don't know the answer. Something tells me this is soon headed for "Never-Ending Pointless Recurring Threads" land. Where we can go on and on forevermore :blink:

 

[ionbeam]

I love reading all this stuff. I even went to an online encyclopedia and read the definitions and explanations......I still don't know the answer. Something tells me this is soon headed for "Never-Ending Pointless Recurring Threads" land

There are just millions of related facts for us all to misunderstand, overlook and some times selectively omit. As there is more than one person involved in this thread (and all previous threads like this one) there can never be just one........correct answer. At least your confusion is now well informed :blink: :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[jayshaw91]

How long till this becomes a pointless/recurring thread?

 

[Fred H.]

How long till this becomes a pointless/recurring thread?

Probably about the third time someone asks about it.

 

[ionbeam]

But wait, there is hope for this thread yet -- Fred and I actually agree on something!!! If jestal comes along and agrees too, this thread can be move to the new MIRACLE file. B)

 

[Alex]

Take this article with a grain of salt folks...Our primary gray bowl of the company I work for is an ethanol plant. Quotes like "10% ethanol produces 3% less power with the same jetting). The E85 blend (15% gasoline, 85% ethanol) produces documented losses of mileage of 30-36%." is just absurd. E85 has been shown to produce UP TO 10% less fuel mileage, not 30-36%

My favorite is "It costs more to produce a gallon than it sells for." really? So the millions in profit that division has seen every month for the last 4 years is what,,,, government kickback?? Posibly the real reason is the fact that Corn prices are very low (have been for years) and that Ethanol pricing has more than doubled from demand.

Here in NE, we've had the 10% ethanol blend available for 10-15 years. I've found a slight, slight decrease in mileage in my wife's Civic over long trips, but never on any other vehicle.

 

[HaulinAshe]

Found this tidbit on Octane. Good, plain English.

"The octane rating of gasoline tells you how much the fuel can be compressed before it spontaneously ignites. When gas ignites by compression rather than because of the spark from the spark plug, it causes knocking in the engine. Knocking can damage an engine, so it is not something you want to have happening. Lower-octane gas (like "regular" 87-octane gasoline) can handle the least amount of compression before igniting."

You should see what happens when somebody starts discussing nitromethane content in model aircraft engines.

But wait, there is hope for this thread yet -- Fred and I actually agree on something!!! If jestal comes along and agrees too, this thread can be move to the new MIRACLE file. B)

I agree with everyone! There, that settles it, doesn't it???

 

[sparky3008]

This from Jestal from another thread.

OK....it is either "preignition" or "detonation." "Predetonation" just does not exist....LOL.

"Premium fuel resists ignition".....????.....uh.....NO. Premium fuel is no harder to ignite than regular fuel and does not cause power loss.

The eternal premium vs. regular debate goes on forever and some of the old wives tales out there surface due to people's experience with oxygenated "premium" fuel that causes problems. Quite frequently alcohol is added to premium fuel to increase the octane rating so an alcohol blend will burn a little slower and cause a slight power loss. That confuses the issue because it is assumed to be because of premium. Regular fuel with alcohol added works the same way. As long as it is premium gasoline it runs the same as regular...it just resists spontaneous combustion of the end gas/detonation better than lower octane fuel.

The octane rating is a measure of the fuel's ability to resist spontaneous combustion of the end gas in the chamber...which is commonly called detonation. This occurs AFTER the spark plug has ignited the charge and the mixture has burned partially. The rising heat and pressure in the chamber (from the burning mixture) causes the end gas to spontaneously combust. Key here is that it occurs after the spark plug initiated combustion at the correct time.

Preignition indicates combustion in the chamber that initiates BEFORE the spark plug ignites the mixture. Octane rating has absolutely no effect on this phenomenon. Hi octane fuel can preignite just as easily as lower octane fuel as the ignition source is usually an overheated spark plug tip or a piece of glowing carbon in the chamber.

This whole discussion gets confusing because spark plug tips often overheat due to excessive detonation at high loads. Thus, there CAN be detonation induced preignition that might not have happened if a higher octane fuel had been run...or colder plugs.

This is why I always run premium in my FJR.... It simply gives you more insurance against detonation. Not that it is necessary. I just like the added security and it doesn't hurt anything. Besides, from the fuel analysis from the field that I have seen over the years the premium fuel marketed by the major suppliers always has the highest concentration and best additive package of detergents and cleaners. Not that you will always get the best additive package in every tank of premium but you do stack the odds in your favor against injector deposits, inlet valve and chamber deposits and the rock hard deposits on exhaust valves. Costs a little more but I really don't ride to save money, personally.

 

[nusman68]

I'm surprised it took this long for such as thread to evolve...

I also have concerns, remembering the Gasahol articles from Popular Science in the 70s, which as I recall, was that: it (Gasahol {10% ethanol} burned cleaner, made a little less power, was no cheaper, but hard on rubber seals, steel lines. I consulted with "my Jestal" source, (my neighbor) who is a Shell Oil lubrication engineer and gets involved with OEM engine design/mods/etc. I have to give him credit, not only because it is the right thing to do, but because he is so knowledgeable---I really need to get him on our forum, as he rides also.

Enough background.

He told me that all vehicles made in 2001 and later have Viton seals in the fuel system, which ethanol will not affect. Good news/bad news for me. I have a '98 vehicle and a '05...my bikes are an '82 and a '05. I did not ask him if this rule applied to motorcycles also, as he had to go at the time...perhaps Jestal could comment on this. In my region (Houston area) there's no getting away from the ethanol, as far as I know...

My brother read in a bike mag recently (Motorcyclist? ...not sure) that 'they' (whoever 'they' are) recommended starting & running bikes much more often when stored with the new fuel. Makes sense to me due to the hygroscopic characteristics of the ethanol.

 

[Shadow King]

There is no real reason to suspect fuel that is 10% ethanol as the source of poor driveability or degraded performance

Ethanol is hydrophilic and hygroscopic therefore creates an opportunity for water to become absorbed. Given a bad confluence between humidity, rain and changing temperatures ethanol can suck up moisture pretty good. Heck, it's a prime ingredient in some 'dry gas' products. Most fuel delivery systems from the distributor (e.g. Mobil, Texaco, et al) to the gas stations are pretty good about being closed system these days so water contamination is less of a problem. As your vehicle draws down the tank atmospheric air/water gets drawn into the tank and ethanol will combine with it right away. You're fine until the motorcycle sits for a while and the temperature drops. At this point ethanol may release some of the water and it will pool right at the fuel pickup.

Those guys are presenting some misinformation in their gasoline article.

+1
Here in New England MTBE was legislated in by most states. Now that MTBE is found in a large percentage of wells it is being legislated out. Bye bye and it can't be any too soon.

Edit for Fred: My former Furd's fuel system was designed so that water was drawn to my fuel filter like a magnet. My filter would saturate with water so severely that my car would often not start during the winters 'cuse the H2O would freeze. Grrrr. I always carried a spare fuel filter.

Good job stating the facts. What line of work are you in?

 

[twowheelnut]

:blink:

So what yer sayin' is; if I go to the gas station and stuff in 4 - 5 gallons of regular without reading the small print on the pump, the world will come to an end as we know it when I fire it back up?

You guys crack me up. What's next, a paper on the molecular structure of the sticky adhesive backing on the wheel weights and how Scotch Brand adhesives contain 1/3 less calories than Tyco Brand, which tastes great, but will increase the rotational mass of the wheel on the second Tuesday before a Blue Moon in Poughkeepsie- or sumpin'?

In postational bliss, I remain,

- Frederico

 

[sparky3008]

There is no real reason to suspect fuel that is 10% ethanol as the source of poor driveability or degraded performance

Ethanol is hydrophilic and hygroscopic therefore creates an opportunity for water to become absorbed. Given a bad confluence between humidity, rain and changing temperatures ethanol can suck up moisture pretty good. Heck, it's a prime ingredient in some 'dry gas' products. Most fuel delivery systems from the distributor (e.g. Mobil, Texaco, et al) to the gas stations are pretty good about being closed system these days so water contamination is less of a problem. As your vehicle draws down the tank atmospheric air/water gets drawn into the tank and ethanol will combine with it right away. You're fine until the motorcycle sits for a while and the temperature drops. At this point ethanol may release some of the water and it will pool right at the fuel pickup.

Those guys are presenting some misinformation in their gasoline article.

+1
Here in New England MTBE was legislated in by most states. Now that MTBE is found in a large percentage of wells it is being legislated out. Bye bye and it can't be any too soon.

Edit for Fred: My former Furd's fuel system was designed so that water was drawn to my fuel filter like a magnet. My filter would saturate with water so severely that my car would often not start during the winters 'cuse the H2O would freeze. Grrrr. I always carried a spare fuel filter.

Good job stating the facts. What line of work are you in?

I will give you a clue, his name is ion beam and it is what he does for a living. Actually is the owner I believe...