Ground spider failure

[HaulinAshe]

I didn't see a similar theory posted after a light search. Posting here so it doesn't get buried in the hundreds of responses on other threads.

Encountered my first ground spider problem today. Not my bike, someone else's '06A.

I do not believe the primary cause of ground spider failure is exceeding design current limits.

Problem is IMO, lack of tension on female pins of larger gauge wires. Crimping must be distorting the pins just enough to lose tension on the pin itself, resulting in high-resistance connection as time and some corrosion set in. Pins/wire sizes are probably within manufacturer's limits, but there is an obvious difference in pin tension between smaller gauge wires and larger gauges.

Even the undamaged larger gauge wires have less female pin tension. Very difficult to detect with the spider engaging all six(6) at once. You have to use a single male pin to test the fit.

 

[johnny80s]

I don't get it.

 

[scubatech]

Good catch HA. It amazes me how random this problem is. I know that you ride a lot of miles and yours is fine!

 

[Neil San Diego]

To play devil's advocate - why is the problem predominately in the "black widow" (foward left, under tank) location then? Hasn't this location been determined to have the largest amperage going through it as well? It just seems that if it were a random thing such as bad crimping, it would show up at all the spiders.

Or is it possible that it is at all locations, but only manifests itself at the highest amp spider...?

just thinking out loud

 

[djon]

HA I agree with your assessment on tension of the terminals. The junction point would indeed generate heat were lack of tension and corrosion would be contributing factors.

A question I have is there a secondary purpose of the spider? Is it there to facilitate parts removal for minor or major maintenance? I have only done a throttle body synch so I don't have any experience of spider removal.

My solution is going to be to cut all the female spade terminals off and install ring terminals and use a brass screw and nut through the rings, torque it down and tape it up with electrical tape. The only limitation I can think of would be working space to install.

Anyone see any other caveats?

OK lets leave the door WFO cause its Friday!

 

[wfooshee]

It's only there because they couldn't put 137 wires to an actual ground. Splice 'em all to one ground wire and it'll be fine, trust us!!!!

It doesn't "facilitate" anything except assembly of the wiring harness at the factory.

 

[08FJR4ME]

I didn't see a similar theory posted after a light search. Posting here so it doesn't get buried in the hundreds of responses on other threads.
Encountered my first ground spider problem today. Not my bike, someone else's '06A.

I do not believe the primary cause of ground spider failure is exceeding design current limits.

Problem is IMO, lack of tension on female pins of larger gauge wires. Crimping must be distorting the pins just enough to lose tension on the pin itself, resulting in high-resistance connection as time and some corrosion set in. Pins/wire sizes are probably within manufacturer's limits, but there is an obvious difference in pin tension between smaller gauge wires and larger gauges.

Even the undamaged larger gauge wires have less female pin tension. Very difficult to detect with the spider engaging all six(6) at once. You have to use a single male pin Penus to test the fit.

I don't get it.

I got it! been doing it since I have been married. :wub:

 

[slapnpop]

I didn't see a similar theory posted after a light search. Posting here so it doesn't get buried in the hundreds of responses on other threads.
Encountered my first ground spider problem today. Not my bike, someone else's '06A.

I do not believe the primary cause of ground spider failure is exceeding design current limits.

Problem is IMO, lack of tension on female pins of larger gauge wires. Crimping must be distorting the pins just enough to lose tension on the pin itself, resulting in high-resistance connection as time and some corrosion set in. Pins/wire sizes are probably within manufacturer's limits, but there is an obvious difference in pin tension between smaller gauge wires and larger gauges.

Even the undamaged larger gauge wires have less female pin tension. Very difficult to detect with the spider engaging all six(6) at once. You have to use a single male pin to test the fit.

I haven't seen these issues firsthand, so I'm not intimately familiar with the details.

Jeff, if your assessment is correct, it seems to me a replacement spider of a thicker material would solve/prevent the problems? Seems like it would be a good exercise to remove the terminals from the plastic housing, and measure the opening of the spade. The connectors are all from Sumitomo, and I'm sure there's a specification for the proper opening width. I have un-crimped terminals that I could measure as a control.

This seems to be to be good news for you Gen 2 owners. It opens a path forward for a very simple fix!

 

[road runner]

I didn't see a similar theory posted after a light search. Posting here so it doesn't get buried in the hundreds of responses on other threads.
Encountered my first ground spider problem today. Not my bike, someone else's '06A.

I do not believe the primary cause of ground spider failure is exceeding design current limits.

Problem is IMO, lack of tension on female pins of larger gauge wires. Crimping must be distorting the pins just enough to lose tension on the pin itself, resulting in high-resistance connection as time and some corrosion set in. Pins/wire sizes are probably within manufacturer's limits, but there is an obvious difference in pin tension between smaller gauge wires and larger gauges.

Even the undamaged larger gauge wires have less female pin tension. Very difficult to detect with the spider engaging all six(6) at once. You have to use a single male pin to test the fit.

Jeff

Which spider was it that you had to work on ?

This is a good observation, and is definitely possible. I was also thinking the same thing until I saw all but 1 of the failures happened to the S4(BLACK WIDOW & S6 spiders. All of the current is going threw 1 wire on the S4 and the next highest current flow is the S6 spider.

Also I don't think they need much tension to work as designed. As long as there is some tension, and it's not loose. The spider being a 1 end connector, or dead end with with no wires to pull on it. I don't think less tension on a connection would be an issue, as long as there is some tension on it.

I think the whole design is marginal. It seems that there is no room for error, like dirt, corrosion, vibration, less tension on connector, high amp load from all acc. on, etc. etc. I think if there was less demand on the parts that are failing they would be less likely to fail, because in good condition they are at there peak performance. Maybe if everything is perfect it will work fine, but I don't know for sure because I'm no engineer.

My .02

 

[Brodie]

Good catch Jeff

I think what you see as a lighter tension can be explained as a fastener that has been in service for several years and has seen many heat cycles. The bigger wires carry more amperage and tend to anneal the metal. Since the connection is one ended with a common ground spider rather than a female half with wires projecting from it, the assembly is static - no external forces to cold work the metal. As its been pointed out above, if there is tension to hold the mating pin in place then there is enough metal to metal contact to complete the circuit.

My take on the situation is that the crimps are within specification. The terminals are rated for the metric equivalent of 20 gage to 16 gage wire. The crimp end is mechanically isolated from the working end by a necking down of the metal between the two ends.

I stand by my original assessment, the connection is exposed to the elements. Over time the bare connector will oxidize which starts the higher resistance. Since this is THE grounding buss for the entire electrical harness, nearly all the bikes electrical devices (save for the ABS unit) channel through the S4 spyder. The 16 gage wire is carrying quite a load back to battery. When I compare the surface area that pin has in relation to the wide blade on my 70 amp relays, me thinks the engineers need to re think the grounding on the bike. Perhaps the 3rd gen. will be more robust.

For what it's worth, I have all the components to make my Grounding Harness. I just need to clear the time to lift the tank on my bike and build the first one.

Soon!

Brodie

 

[HaulinAshe]

A couple points to further explain...

* I agree that the higher current connections are the ones most likely to fail. That's basic electrical. My findings/theory doesn't dispute that in any way. Certainly, the connections operating closer to max design spec will likely be the first to go. Moisture/corrosion/elements only serve to accelerate the failure rate.

* The spider I found defective was the one located Front-Left, inside the left fairing and close to the glove compartment. Sorry, I'm too lazy this morning to look up it's "S number".

* When I found the defective one, I tested several others on the same bike for fit/tension. I used a single male pin to test each connection of the six-pin spiders. In almost every case there was a noticeable difference in the tension of the larger gauge wires than the smaller gauge ones. Nothing scientific, just using my fingers.

* I chose to fix the defective spider by removing all the connectors from the plastic body, cleaning everything thoroughly, and soldering the spider into place on all six connectors. I was lucky to have caught the problem before the wires were damaged, so soldering went well and looks smooth. Two layers of heatshrink over the finished assembly and it was done.

* I agree that there must be some spider connections operating close to max design spec, which doesn't allow for any problems like a sub-standard crimp, moisture/corrosion, additional loads etc. We all know anytime you design something to operate at 90% rating, 90% of the units will fail prematurely.

I may be all-wet with my failure theory. Just taking the opportunity to think out loud and share my personal experience with this failure.

One last note about spider fixes. I'm not in 100% agreement with soldering and grounding all those spider connections to the frame. Many electrical systems go to great lengths to avoid ground loops. They are designed to aggregate all "common" or "ground" wires and eventually return a single ground directly to the battery. Grounding the various spider points to the frame will create ground loops, which could cause engine noise and possible RF interference to creep into comm systems, ECU operations etc. I'd rather restore the integrity of the spiders connection points and allow them to return to battery-ground as originally designed.

 

[Brodie]

A couple points to further explain...
* I agree that the higher current connections are the ones most likely to fail. That's basic electrical. My findings/theory doesn't dispute that in any way. Certainly, the connections operating closer to max design spec will likely be the first to go. Moisture/corrosion/elements only serve to accelerate the failure rate.

On that I think we can all agree.

* The spider I found defective was the one located Front-Left, inside the left fairing and close to the glove compartment. Sorry, I'm too lazy this morning to look up it's "S number".

That is the one just before the S4 (Black Widow) spyder. It carries all the load from the front wire harness. Failure there is not uncommon.

* When I found the defective one, I tested several others on the same bike for fit/tension. I used a single male pin to test each connection of the six-pin spiders. In almost every case there was a noticeable difference in the tension of the larger gauge wires than the smaller gauge ones. Nothing scientific, just using my fingers.

Like I said - Good Catch! Any information we gather from this ads to the body of knowledge and perhaps the final fix.

* I chose to fix the defective spider by removing all the connectors from the plastic body, cleaning everything thoroughly, and soldering the spider into place on all six connectors. I was lucky to have caught the problem before the wires were damaged, so soldering went well and looks smooth. Two layers of heatshrink over the finished assembly and it was done.

Sounds like an excellent way to go. That repair will never give you any trouble.

* I agree that there must be some spider connections operating close to max design spec, which doesn't allow for any problems like a sub-standard crimp, moisture/corrosion, additional loads etc. We all know anytime you design something to operate at 90% rating, 90% of the units will fail prematurely.

I wish Yamaha kept that in mind when designing the wiring harness. On a bike like this one it tends to see a lot of weather. Yamaha needs to build in more reliability by not skimping in this area. With 20 20 hindsight it's obvious that the connector selected for the job just isn't up to the task - not enough surface area in contact to counter the effects of age and corrosion.

I may be all-wet with my failure theory. Just taking the opportunity to think out loud and share my personal experience with this failure.

I don't think your theory is all wet, it's based on your findings. It may very well have some validity. It's possible the pins on the spyder places the terminals under strain. Perhaps the spyder puts a twist on them and decreases the area of contact, which when oxidation starts makes them more prone to resistance.

One last note about spider fixes. I'm not in 100% agreement with soldering and grounding all those spider connections to the frame. Many electrical systems go to great lengths to avoid ground loops. They are designed to aggregate all "common" or "ground" wires and eventually return a single ground directly to the battery. Grounding the various spider points to the frame will create ground loops, which could cause engine noise and possible RF interference to creep into comm systems, ECU operations etc. I'd rather restore the integrity of the spiders connection points and allow them to return to battery-ground as originally designed.

That is a very important concern. In fact one of the questions I had when I joined in the discussion was the ground loop when tying them together. With the work that RZ350, Road Runner, and others did in another thread, I've decided to build a Grounding Harness that catches 6 of the 8 spyders and run it all the way back to the negative battery terminal. The 2 spyders that service the bike's black boxes I will leave alone. I do suggest that they be cleaned and treated with Dielectric tune up grease.

There are lots of ways to skin this cat. Your method is excellent - I can't fault it at all! :good:

Make sure
your
bike is serviced as well!
Thanks for adding to the discussion.

Brodie

 

[Harald]

I think you are right on the money, HaulinAshe. Back in Jan when I found my corroded spider I noted the loose pin tension:

I considered cleaning it up, greasing with dielectric grease and reassembling but wasn’t happy with the melting inside the connector and loose pin tension. So I cut the pins off and soldered the wires together. BTW, someone had asked what the spiders are made off. I rubbed the corroded one on some sandpaper, which took off the plating. Looks like they are copper.

The looseness would probably be fine if it was inside my stereo at home, but the FJR is subject to a lot more vibration, dirt and moisture. :glare:

 

[Greb]

so does anyone know what is causing the meltdown on the spiders yet?

FWIW I pulled the tank for a TBS today and the problematic spider by #1 cylinder was pristine. I have driven through some hellish weather so I was relieved to see it was good. This issue had/has me a little worried. Seems too random with no way to pin point a direct cause unless I'm behind the latest updates.

 

[mcatrophy]

so does anyone know what is causing the meltdown on the spiders yet?
FWIW I pulled the tank for a TBS today and the problematic spider by #1 cylinder was pristine. I have driven through some hellish weather so I was relieved to see it was good. This issue had/has me a little worried. Seems too random with no way to pin point a direct cause unless I'm behind the latest updates.

Corrosion causing high resistance.

 

[Greb]

Corrosion causing high resistance.

Pack with grease and keep dry I guess. Thanks