Hard starting that went away

[audiowize]

I was waiting for the ferry yesterday for about 15 minutes with my '03 FJR shut off (key off). When I went to start it back up, the starter barely turned over, chugged for a couple revolutions, then everything fired up. In the process, the clock and trip counters reset.

Since that time, the bike has started just fine, with no issues.

I checked the battery connections and they are tight. Any other ideas? I don't know the history of the battery on my bike, so it may be time to replace it just in case.

 

[MrZappo]

What is the battery voltage at rest and when cranking ? It should be easy to determine if the battery is questionable ...

Sounds like a safe bet to me though ...

 

[ionbeam]

The gauges resetting means that the battery voltage sagged very low when cranking. This may be because of a weak battery or a starter drawing too much current. Starters that are beginning to fail often begin showing symptoms by having hot start problems.

It isn't uncommon to change the battery and have the engine crank 'normally' for a while but eventually the root cause, a failing starter will begin to drag down the new battery.

The only real diagnostic is to have someone put an amp probe on your battery cable then check the starting current while watching battery voltage. This is the best no guess diagnostic method. You can have the battery load tested, some auto parts stores will do this for no charge. A load test isn't the final word that the battery is good, but if the battery passes the test it is a strong indicator that the battery is OK.

Shotgun troubleshooting will cost you $80-$90 for a battery and anyplace between $80 for a used (condition unknown) starter and $370 for a new motor. If your starter can be rebuilt it will be roughly $100, it will be tested and come with a guarantee.

The starter motor is one of those damnable things, you can look right in and see the sucker, but you will have to do an inordinate amount of disassemble to actually get to it.

 

[flyfisher]

Or always park on a hill, merry christmas.

 

[audiowize]

OK, I'll go ahead and pull the battery and have it tested. Before doing so, I can post resting and cranking voltage if those are useful. I'll also have a look to see if my Fluke clamp meter will do DC current.

It's hard to imagine a bike with 27,000 miles needing a new starter, but not impossible I suppose!

 

[RichDoyle]

Could be worse: On the ferry, front of the boat, go to start the bike and can't. Now you have to push the bike off the boat at low tide.

You fellow ferry riders know what that means.

 

[dcarver]

Could be worse: On the ferry, front of the boat, go to start the bike and can't. Now you have to push the bike off the boat at low tide.

You fellow ferry riders know what that means.

A hernia? An embarrassment? The BMW peeps laughing uncontrollably?

 

[FJRay]

Could be worse: On the ferry, front of the boat, go to start the bike and can't. Now you have to push the bike off the boat at low tide. :uhoh: You fellow ferry riders know what that means.

A hernia? An embarrassment? The BMW peeps laughing uncontrollably?

Been there done that when I dropped the key for my Concours down inside the fairing. Had to push that heavy pig off the boat. Learned to carry a spare key.

 

[dcarver]

sooo... low tide equals up hill push?

 

[clocklaw]

This sounds very similar to the problem that plagued my 2003....I can tell you that it was not the starter. It was a very intermittant issue, mostly happened if the bike was at operating temp and turned off for a short period of time (like when I stopped for fuel). I "lost" the bike before I diagnosed the issue but I did have the starter rebuilt and had the same issue afterward.

OK, I'll go ahead and pull the battery and have it tested. Before doing so, I can post resting and cranking voltage if those are useful. I'll also have a look to see if my Fluke clamp meter will do DC current.
It's hard to imagine a bike with 27,000 miles needing a new starter, but not impossible I suppose!

 

[wheatonFJR]

sooo... low tide equals up hill push?

You are a smart feller...

 

[Lou D]

Having a hard starting problem. Worst time is when the engine is warm. I stopped for gas this morning (37 degrees) and when I tried to start it, it cranked very slowly. I replaced the battery recently so its not that. Same problem that FJR Pilot had before he "lost" his. Anyone else?

 

[roger dodger]

My (son's) '03 did this in-frequently... but it seemed the worst on a hot re-start. Reset gauges is the symptom of a tired battery. It might be a quick fill up, or a short break on a trip. The hot engine seems to add compression and make it difficult to turn over. The (most often found) answer is a new battery, and most everybody finds it solves (most) hard starting ills.

The other weird phenomenon is the 'high speed starter' or some such term. It means you've flooded the damn thing, oil has seeped into (at least) 1 cylinder, and reduced (or killed) it's compression. I read to go to WFO and hold it 'till the cows come home, and it 'usually' works.

I found that a wet cylinder needs to be dried out. Pull the plugs, wait a few minutes (or more), and add a few drops of oil to each cylinder to build compression. Replace plugs and re-start normally. It worked the 2nd time I tried this, w/ much less anxiety than 'WFO 'till it catches'. YMMV

 

[Donal]

My (son's) '03 did this in-frequently... but it seemed the worst on a hot re-start. Reset gauges is the symptom of a tired battery. It might be a quick fill up, or a short break on a trip. The hot engine seems to add compression and make it difficult to turn over. The (most often found) answer is a new battery, and most everybody finds it solves (most) hard starting ills.
The other weird phenomenon is the 'high speed starter' or some such term. It means you've flooded the damn thing, oil has seeped into (at least) 1 cylinder, and reduced (or killed) it's compression. I read to go to WFO and hold it 'till the cows come home, and it 'usually' works.

I found that a wet cylinder needs to be dried out. Pull the plugs, wait a few minutes (or more), and add a few drops of oil to each cylinder to build compression. Replace plugs and re-start normally. It worked the 2nd time I tried this, w/ much less anxiety than 'WFO 'till it catches'. YMMV

My guess on the "Fast starter syndrome" is that the engine is being overfuelled probably because of a 'glitch' in the ECU. It usually occurs when the bike has been started but not allowed to warm up.

The fast bit comes about because the rich fuel is igniting but not burning very fast. It 'helps' the starter to turn the engine over but will not get to the point of self sustaining...... YMMV

 

[Lou D]

I charged the battery over night. The green charge light came on within 10 minuted. I still assume its not the battery but I will report back as soon as we thaw out a little. 18 degrees right now!

 

[RossKean]

I charged the battery over night. The green charge light came on within 10 minuted. I still assume its not the battery but I will report back as soon as we thaw out a little. 18 degrees right now!

A battery indicating "charged" (based upon measured voltage) may not be capable of starting a vehicle. The only real test is a load test where the battery's ability to maintain voltage under heavy current draw conditions is measured. Sadly, some batteries can fail quite early in their lifetime. Although not as good as new, my OEM Yuasa still soldiers on after 8 years and 127,000 miles. (Never use Battery Tender, top-up charge a couple of times during the winter layoff, slow-charge only at less than 2 amperes) Maybe next season will be time for a change.
As it has been mentioned, issues with the starter need to be checked out if the battery passes a load test. A DC clamp-on ammeter measures current draw on starting.

 

[audiowize]

Resting voltage: 13.9V

Voltage with key on: 13.5V

Voltage while starting: 9.8V

Voltage while running at idle: 14.1V

9.8V isn't stellar in my opinion, but I'd probably wait till I saw 9V to actually replace the battery.

What do you guys think?

 

[RossKean]

Check current draw of the starter before you replace the battery. The cranking V is maybe a little less than ideal but the other numbers are not bad. I know you don't have a lot of miles on the starter, but...

 

[audiowize]

Alright, since I don't have a (DC) clamp meter available, I will just measure the ESR of the battery. That and the voltage numbers should give me the starter current quite easily.